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 Yarium wrote:

Asterios wrote:
problem is for GW to make the game more bought by 14-18 year olds they have to reduce the cost, anything other then that will not get kids to buy the game, when they can spend maybe $20 max and be playing a card game right away (magic, Yu-Gi-Oh) or even a little more $40 for (STAW, SWAW) that is where the kids will spend the money since it takes about $100 minimum to get playing warhammer in any connotation.

the game is not being geared towards young teen kids but towards college aged kids and such, so a boob here and there wouldn't be an issue and think GW has less then half a dozen model designs that might show boob or such.

As someone who has gone through the whole GW lifecycle, and has seen many, many other players do the same, I think the monetary reality is a little different. Younger kids tend to have more time than money, so they are able to really get hooked on the hobby. When they enjoy it, they will play it for a long time, and that has value. They become ambassadors of the brand, and their lifetime investment will be massive. Older players that pick it up tend to have more money than time. They will drop a large amount of money quickly, but then they're also much more likely to drop the hobby in a quicker timeframe as well. So, while you get a sales boost, you miss out on the lifetime returns of the customer.

So, while yeah, the younger crowd might only by a $60 box once every few months (with increasing quantities over time as their purchasing power increases), over the course of a decade, that's a lot more than the adult who drops $1500, buys an army, then drops the hobby.

Comparing to Magic and all the other games, people have an amount of money they'll spend each month on entertainment, and they'll buy in whatever increments that amount allows. If it's $20 per month, then a Magic player will play a draft every month, while a 40k player will save up for a few months to buy the $60 box, and the STAW player will buy a ship during that month. In the end, they all spend the same amount, just over different time frames.

problem is kids don't think like that, kids these days are all about quick and fast and easy, which is why Magic and Yu-Gi-Oh and STAW and such are big hits with kids, it doesn't take a lot, 9 out of 10 kids will go for those games while maybe 1 will go for a game like GW, games like GW are strongly in the college crowd domain and adult domain. been to several big GW games at some local game stores and at most might see 1 or 2 kids playing(highschool or less), go to a Magic or Yu-Gi-Oh game the kids outnumber the adults playing.

My first GW box as dino's vs knights + robin hoods boyz. The models where clean / free of gore and the art was comical or heroic. This was a long time ago but I don't think GW is that kid friendly now.

 master of ordinance wrote:
Bring back Slaanesh!
Bring back the Diaz Deamonettes!

Yes, please!

 Yarium wrote:
As someone who has gone through the whole GW lifecycle, and has seen many, many other players do the same, I think the monetary reality is a little different. Younger kids tend to have more time than money, so they are able to really get hooked on the hobby. When they enjoy it, they will play it for a long time, and that has value. They become ambassadors of the brand, and their lifetime investment will be massive. Older players that pick it up tend to have more money than time. They will drop a large amount of money quickly, but then they're also much more likely to drop the hobby in a quicker timeframe as well. So, while you get a sales boost, you miss out on the lifetime returns of the customer.

I have to disagree here. Younger customers may have a large lifetime investment if they stay in the hobby, but they also drop the hobby (like any other hobby) at a high rate. There's a reason GW's strategy so heavily involves the "three purchase" model of getting an initial purchase, a birthday gift, and a christmas gift, and then anything after that is a bonus. Kids are impulsive, the thing they're begging their parents to buy one week is often collecting dust in the closet the next week.

Asterios wrote:

 Yarium wrote:

Asterios wrote:
problem is for GW to make the game more bought by 14-18 year olds they have to reduce the cost, anything other then that will not get kids to buy the game, when they can spend maybe $20 max and be playing a card game right away (magic, Yu-Gi-Oh) or even a little more $40 for (STAW, SWAW) that is where the kids will spend the money since it takes about $100 minimum to get playing warhammer in any connotation.

the game is not being geared towards young teen kids but towards college aged kids and such, so a boob here and there wouldn't be an issue and think GW has less then half a dozen model designs that might show boob or such.

As someone who has gone through the whole GW lifecycle, and has seen many, many other players do the same, I think the monetary reality is a little different. Younger kids tend to have more time than money, so they are able to really get hooked on the hobby. When they enjoy it, they will play it for a long time, and that has value. They become ambassadors of the brand, and their lifetime investment will be massive. Older players that pick it up tend to have more money than time. They will drop a large amount of money quickly, but then they're also much more likely to drop the hobby in a quicker timeframe as well. So, while you get a sales boost, you miss out on the lifetime returns of the customer.

So, while yeah, the younger crowd might only by a $60 box once every few months (with increasing quantities over time as their purchasing power increases), over the course of a decade, that's a lot more than the adult who drops $1500, buys an army, then drops the hobby.

Comparing to Magic and all the other games, people have an amount of money they'll spend each month on entertainment, and they'll buy in whatever increments that amount allows. If it's $20 per month, then a Magic player will play a draft every month, while a 40k player will save up for a few months to buy the $60 box, and the STAW player will buy a ship during that month. In the end, they all spend the same amount, just over different time frames.

problem is kids don't think like that, kids these days are all about quick and fast and easy, which is why Magic and Yu-Gi-Oh and STAW and such are big hits with kids, it doesn't take a lot, 9 out of 10 kids will go for those games while maybe 1 will go for a game like GW, games like GW are strongly in the college crowd domain and adult domain. been to several big GW games at some local game stores and at most might see 1 or 2 kids playing(highschool or less), go to a Magic or Yu-Gi-Oh game the kids outnumber the adults playing.

That's how I see it too. Imo, most who started 40k had an interest in their teen, but they really started the hobby once they hit adulthood. One of the reason is the high cost, the other, the patience and skills it requires which most kids don't have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To answer the OP, yes I do feel GW should be more adult oriented. AFAIK, young kids aren't big GW purchasers, and teens and adults, in average, would rather have a mature setting. The newest codex seems like they have been sanitize a bit and I don't like it one bit. The Horus Heresy novels is a perfect example of what they should aim for imo (the first 3 I should say, cause they are the only one I read). Not the new DA codex or the Red Waagh which felt like kids book imo.

We play with toys. Having a NC-17 background won't make it more dignified. But if telling people you play with adult toys makes you feel better, more power to you.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Bring back Slaanesh!
Bring back the Diaz Deamonettes!

Yes, please!

I support this

Davor wrote:
I have the latest Dark Angel codex and I don't see non of the atrocities the "good guys" do, it looks like the fluff is changing.

Dude read it again. Especially the section on the Interrogator Chaplain. They torture people into confession much like the medieval Inquisition.

I think that having no real 'good guys' is a major bonus of the background, and especially important to teach to kids. It was one of the major things that attracted me to the setting when I was a kid. The tone of 40k should make it clear that the Imperium of Man is really, really bad. It's much more morally complex then most other 'kids' settings and I think that's a good thing. It's much more educational to teach kids to think about different shades of grey than to think in terms of 'good guys' and 'bad guys'.

I'm also not opposed to having sexual themes in a realistic setting - it's just that, in a war-game, they're probably not going to come up that much.

I think a lot of the criticism GW come up against in that regard is because of sexism in sculpting style rather than just 'including sex in the setting', and this often gets confused in all the 'boob armour' threads for prudishness. I don't think there's really a problem with having, say, a Chaos God of Excess and some of that excess being sexual. I think there is more damage done when you give that god all the female-looking models (because female bodies = sex, right?).

As someone who has gone through the whole GW lifecycle, and has seen many, many other players do the same, I think the monetary reality is a little different. Younger kids tend to have more time than money, so they are able to really get hooked on the hobby. When they enjoy it, they will play it for a long time, and that has value. They become ambassadors of the brand, and their lifetime investment will be massive. Older players that pick it up tend to have more money than time. They will drop a large amount of money quickly, but then they're also much more likely to drop the hobby in a quicker timeframe as well. So, while you get a sales boost, you miss out on the lifetime returns of the customer.

So, while yeah, the younger crowd might only by a $60 box once every few months (with increasing quantities over time as their purchasing power increases), over the course of a decade, that's a lot more than the adult who drops $1500, buys an army, then drops the hobby.

Comparing to Magic and all the other games, people have an amount of money they'll spend each month on entertainment, and they'll buy in whatever increments that amount allows. If it's $20 per month, then a Magic player will play a draft every month, while a 40k player will save up for a few months to buy the $60 box, and the STAW player will buy a ship during that month. In the end, they all spend the same amount, just over different time frames.

You forgot one important category of buyer. Those like myself who have been playing/collecting for 20+ years and who will drop in a year more than any kid/teenager could (and year in, year out).
Theres something to be said for GW targetting the disposable income consumer and those of us that may not have huge amounts of time due to work/commitments/family etc but nevertheless still play and collect regularly.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
That said, its also a game based in the UK which right now has some of the most ass backwards laws right now regarding what can and can not be shown. in the UK GOD FORBID! you show an uncovered tit, but a hulking demon ripping a space marine in half with his blood and guts falling to the floor? Totally fine, in fact sunday morning cartoon.

Unlike the US where we just dont give a gak and say sure what ever.

Not sure what UK you've been too but this doesn't sound at all like the UK I live in

This also doesn't sound like the US I live in (where folks tend to go off like a nickel rocket over even the merest hint of a nipple)!

jade_angel wrote:
This also doesn't sound like the US I live in (where folks tend to go off like a nickel rocket over even the merest hint of a nipple)!

Depends on the part of the US. I support nipples.

#FreeTheNipple

I think your avatar already has.....

From what I've seen at my LGS, it's mostly the younger people buying stuff and the older ones playing. Fluff wise, SM are brutal! They're xenophobes who disagree with anyone who doubts the Emperor (branding them heretics), plus they mostly start all the wars they fight. Although, I did think Warhammer was aimed at the 12 plus category anyway (ok, not adults, but not for younger people anyway).

Ratius wrote:You forgot one important category of buyer. Those like myself who have been playing/collecting for 20+ years and who will drop in a year more than any kid/teenager could (and year in, year out).
Theres something to be said for GW targetting the disposable income consumer and those of us that may not have huge amounts of time due to work/commitments/family etc but nevertheless still play and collect regularly.

Mr. CyberPunk wrote:That's how I see it too. Imo, most who started 40k had an interest in their teen, but they really started the hobby once they hit adulthood. One of the reason is the high cost, the other, the patience and skills it requires which most kids don't have.

Those actually fit exactly with what I was saying. Such a client starts young, with little purchasing power, but because they develop an affinity for the brand at a younger age, as they grow older and their purchasing power increases, they become the exact kind of customer that I would want if I were running GW. They're someone that's loyal enough to the brand that they consistently make larger purchases. Pushing for these kinds of customers automatically attracts other customers along the way that don't stick with the brand, but these kinds of customers are your glue.

Peregrine wrote:I have to disagree here. Younger customers may have a large lifetime investment if they stay in the hobby, but they also drop the hobby (like any other hobby) at a high rate. There's a reason GW's strategy so heavily involves the "three purchase" model of getting an initial purchase, a birthday gift, and a christmas gift, and then anything after that is a bonus. Kids are impulsive, the thing they're begging their parents to buy one week is often collecting dust in the closet the next week.

Very fair point. My thinking is that younger customers that stay in the hobby become ambassadors for the brand. Their passion rubs off on people, and that's part of how you get the older customers too. However, that's me saying something with absolutely 0 proof to back it up beyond my own gut feeling.

 Yarium wrote:

Ratius wrote:You forgot one important category of buyer. Those like myself who have been playing/collecting for 20+ years and who will drop in a year more than any kid/teenager could (and year in, year out).
Theres something to be said for GW targetting the disposable income consumer and those of us that may not have huge amounts of time due to work/commitments/family etc but nevertheless still play and collect regularly.

Mr. CyberPunk wrote:That's how I see it too. Imo, most who started 40k had an interest in their teen, but they really started the hobby once they hit adulthood. One of the reason is the high cost, the other, the patience and skills it requires which most kids don't have.

Those actually fit exactly with what I was saying. Such a client starts young, with little purchasing power, but because they develop an affinity for the brand at a younger age, as they grow older and their purchasing power increases, they become the exact kind of customer that I would want if I were running GW. They're someone that's loyal enough to the brand that they consistently make larger purchases. Pushing for these kinds of customers automatically attracts other customers along the way that don't stick with the brand, but these kinds of customers are your glue.

Peregrine wrote:I have to disagree here. Younger customers may have a large lifetime investment if they stay in the hobby, but they also drop the hobby (like any other hobby) at a high rate. There's a reason GW's strategy so heavily involves the "three purchase" model of getting an initial purchase, a birthday gift, and a christmas gift, and then anything after that is a bonus. Kids are impulsive, the thing they're begging their parents to buy one week is often collecting dust in the closet the next week.

Very fair point. My thinking is that younger customers that stay in the hobby become ambassadors for the brand. Their passion rubs off on people, and that's part of how you get the older customers too. However, that's me saying something with absolutely 0 proof to back it up beyond my own gut feeling.

problem is when you have a choice between a dozen miniatures or so or the newest video game, which do you think kids will pick ?

Asterios wrote:
problem is when you have a choice between a dozen miniatures or so or the newest video game, which do you think kids will pick ?

That's called market share. Some percentage of kids will buy 40k, some with buy the new game. I can't answer this question on the whole, because that's the biggest question facing just about every entertainment company on the planet. Movie companies ask themselves nearly that exact same question, except they ask "choice between watching Doctor Strange or the newest video game, which do you think kids will pick?". However, that's why I voted for GW not to become more adult orientated, because it would lose them market share amongst young kids in a time where I believe market share over that age group matters more than ever. Still, I can't say for sure I'm right, because that would require a ton of market research that I just can't acquire. Instead, it's just my hunch, and no one is wrong for disagreeing with it.

jade_angel wrote:
40k isn't becoming a kiddie game, or at least not in any real sense. Read a codex other than that one, and you'll still see plenty of darkness. (There's a reason some folks just don't care for Dark Angel fluff). For the most part, the darkness is still there. It's not quite as grimdark and hopeless as was the case in past editions, but it's definitely not fluffy-kitties-and-rainbow-ponies, by any stretch: just a bit more nuance added to avoid darkness-induced audience apathy.

What 40k doesn't need, is gratuitous blood and guts and random "hot and sexy" sprinkled in just to "earn that X rating". That's usually a recipe for comically over-the-top crappy writing. Gross or edgy for its own sake is rarely a decent design choice.

Pretty much this.

At OP, I don't like the new D&D/WoW-style art, with everyone having biceps the size of Bournemouth. However, the sexual themes touched upon in 40k were never done so in a very adult manner. Tbh, a total aesthetic revamp of Slaanesh and the Sisters would go a loooooooong way (we might get both). Focus on excess and fanaticism, not whatever else seems to be going on.

 Yarium wrote:

Asterios wrote:
problem is when you have a choice between a dozen miniatures or so or the newest video game, which do you think kids will pick ?

That's called market share. Some percentage of kids will buy 40k, some with buy the new game. I can't answer this question on the whole, because that's the biggest question facing just about every entertainment company on the planet. Movie companies ask themselves nearly that exact same question, except they ask "choice between watching Doctor Strange or the newest video game, which do you think kids will pick?". However, that's why I voted for GW not to become more adult orientated, because it would lose them market share amongst young kids in a time where I believe market share over that age group matters more than ever. Still, I can't say for sure I'm right, because that would require a ton of market research that I just can't acquire. Instead, it's just my hunch, and no one is wrong for disagreeing with it.

ok Market share how many kids under the age of 18 play 40K at your local game store? out of the several stores around me I can say 2. now how many play Magic? or Yu-Gi-Oh or do you think stay home and play video games? or are currently out hunting Pokemon.

40K does not endear itself to the younger crowd cause its expensive toys.

Asterios wrote:actually the only one I see having a major issue with it is the OP Davor not only did he have to start one thread but two threads about it that I know of. seriously Davor if you have this much issue with a pair of small bumps on the SoB's then this game is not for you, in fact most miniature games are not for you, don't go ruining it for others because you cannot extract that stick you have., i never for once considered 40K over sexualized ever, and i'm the kind who finds sexualization in Disney movies (tell me Elsa didn't have a come hither sway in her walk?) so for someone to find sexualization in GW they are either on a witch hunt or have some serious issues going on.

No I don't have an issue at all. If you even bothered to read what I said in the other post I don't have an issue with it at all. Also this topic has nothing to due with sex so not sure why you are trying to pick me out now.

Also how am I ruining it for others? Don't like the topic don't read it. Take your advice and use it instead of trying to belittle other people who have a differing opinion than you. Also as I said, before you comment make sure you know what my opinion is, because I already said it and you choose to ignore it.

 Yarium wrote:

Ratius wrote:You forgot one important category of buyer. Those like myself who have been playing/collecting for 20+ years and who will drop in a year more than any kid/teenager could (and year in, year out).
Theres something to be said for GW targetting the disposable income consumer and those of us that may not have huge amounts of time due to work/commitments/family etc but nevertheless still play and collect regularly.

Mr. CyberPunk wrote:That's how I see it too. Imo, most who started 40k had an interest in their teen, but they really started the hobby once they hit adulthood. One of the reason is the high cost, the other, the patience and skills it requires which most kids don't have.

Those actually fit exactly with what I was saying. Such a client starts young, with little purchasing power, but because they develop an affinity for the brand at a younger age, as they grow older and their purchasing power increases, they become the exact kind of customer that I would want if I were running GW. They're someone that's loyal enough to the brand that they consistently make larger purchases. Pushing for these kinds of customers automatically attracts other customers along the way that don't stick with the brand, but these kinds of customers are your glue.
[

Ok, but where I ''disagree'' (not really sure you disagree though) is that I think having an adult oriented setting won't harm these kids interest (they'll probably ignore the blunt of it and focus on the minis or the more easily accessible part of the setting). But as they grow older, it will keep them hooked up and allow some will to fully pick the hobby once they have the fund for it.

Basically, my point of view is that having a kids setting may help bring in more young fans (and maybe plain more fans overall), but these kids won't spend enough $$$ to compensate the older fans who dropped out because of said kiddie setting, and they mostly won't stay in the hobby very long either as they'll find it too childish growing up.

Something like how fantasy was would be nice: Still grim and dark, but not comically and cripplingly so. show that the "good guys" win and loose, not just Pyrrhic victories and losses. The Empire (fantasy) ahd it rough, but was still able to make progress. That being said, I don't want it to go noblebright, but there needs to be a decent middle ground IMO. Back in "the day" there was plenty of silly and a decent amount of "oh look, an actual victory" and no one seemed to mind.

Grim Dark was more about how there is much that cannot be understood, and the feeling of creeping inevitability. 40k presented that well for a long time, but they didn't focus exclusively on the grim dark aspects in the earlier editions. But as time has passed it's become less actual Grim Dark and more comical and ridiculous. I think the shining example of how bad it has gotten was the Grey Knights codex that introduced them as a stand alone faction, which took the 'dark' aspect of the setting into absurdity.

A dark setting still has points of hope, humor, and genuine human moments. Places where you can build connection with characters and care about what happens to them. At this point 40k has become a comic caricature, pretending to be dark so hard that it's simply become rediculous instead. I think a step back and a reevaluation of how the fluff is presented is needed. There's too much light shown on the terrible aspects of the universe, and too little given to making you care about the people who fight against it. If you want a more adult theme, then more engaging storytelling will help develop that. As it is, the theme is actually extremely childish - a comic caricature that appeals to kids on the 'LOOK HOW COOL THIS ALL IS!' scale.

 Azreal13 wrote:
40K, as a setting, is already deeply adult, it is just that it somewhat scales with the maturity of the observer.

A teenager will see the Spess Mahrines running around blowing the gak out of all and sundry, with perhaps the odd titter about boobies or a knob joke here or there when Slaanesh rears up in the conversation.

An adult will, if they take the time to consider it, see the more dystopian element to the setting, that mankind are hanging on by their fingertips, that a life of centuries spent almost entirely in combat isn't enough for the Marines to ultimately make any real difference, and that to follow Slaanesh is akin to being perpetually thirsty, no matter how much you drink, and is, in fact, probably a pretty desperate existence.

The setting is perfectly adult enough, if you approach it like an adult.

I think this is very well put

I love the 40k setting. I got into it during the tail end of 2nd edition when I was 10 years old and at the time the dark undertones really appealed to me, and I grew to love them more and more as time went on. I still see lots of parents and children of that age come in and out of my local GW so I still think it appeals to younger children just as it once did to me.

So far this thread hasn't talked about AoS. That's where I would like the setting to get darker - or maybe just more realistic. What I liked about WHFB was it had all the high fantasy and all the low fantasy and players could pick or choose which themes appealed to them (and for me that's the low fantasy side). Now with AoS we only have the high fantasy elements. We have cities on floating islands but no explanation of how traders get up or down from them. Stormcast who march in full plate armour, never eat or sleep or rest, never make camps or set up supply lines. I find myself clinging to any shred of detail about how the world works on a day-to-day basis (like the city of Hammerhal on either side of a realmgate where humans funnel lava from one side to help Aelfs on the other control the forests in return for food and other trade), because overall the AoS setting still lacks a lot of that detail.

And from what I take from Azreal13's comment above is that to make stuff appeal to adult audiences it's all about the details, and it's in the details that nuances, themes and undertones can thrive.


EDIT: didn't see this was in 40K discussion haha

Unpopular opinion, but I prefer the new androgenous models for daemonettes, they are more in line with the fluff and makes sense.

Asterios wrote:
problem is kids don't think like that, kids these days are all about quick and fast and easy, which is why Magic and Yu-Gi-Oh and STAW and such are big hits with kids, it doesn't take a lot, 9 out of 10 kids will go for those games while maybe 1 will go for a game like GW, games like GW are strongly in the college crowd domain and adult domain. been to several big GW games at some local game stores and at most might see 1 or 2 kids playing(highschool or less), go to a Magic or Yu-Gi-Oh game the kids outnumber the adults playing.

Asterios wrote:
problem is when you have a choice between a dozen miniatures or so or the newest video game, which do you think kids will pick ?

Personally I view it a bit different. This is a pretty niche hobby. Always was. Always will be. And for the same reason that the theatre still survives in an era of dvds, cinema, tv, video games etc, table rob wargames and 'old school' crafts and hobbies will always have an appeal to some. In a global context, it is enough.

Regarding the adult/kiddie divide for 40k, I disagree with both terms. 40k is neither. It is somewhat different. It is a juvenile pulp IP. When you're young, it seems dark and grown up, because it appeals to the less mature, less 'grown up' side of you. But it's just noise and flashing lights, really. It's not really grown up, it's what grown up seems like to young uns. Or what they interpret and wish grown up to be. But it's certainly not kiddie at the same time. When you're all grown up, the very same lore you loved in 40k is tacky, one dimensional, and juvenile.

I think rather than the adult/kiddie divide, I think we need to realise we ourselves are older. And get older. It's our perspectives that change, not necessarily the lore's presentation. The stuff you loved a story a twelve year old is the same stuff current twelve year olds are engrossed by. If they read the lore you loved when you were twelve, they would love it too. And see is all as part of the same whole. But also. Back when you were twelve, adults would have scoffed at the stuff you found enthralling, just as you do the same to the current generation of twelve year olds engrossed by the lore.

People get older, people's perception of life changes. Thst is all.

As for the grimdark nature of 40k, I see no wrong with kids being exposed to it. These are themes that are present in most fantasy and sci fi settings. Just look at star wars and mass genocide.

Funnily enough even as a kid I thought the depiction of daemonettes, slaanesh and some sisters of battle models were very childish. Like the answer was to slap tits on everything. Nothing wrong with the concept of slaanesh or sisters repentant but do they have to look like they were designed by an adolescent basement dweller?

Reavas wrote:
Unpopular opinion, but I prefer the new androgenous models for daemonettes, they are more in line with the fluff and makes sense.

I would not mind them so much if it where not for:
A) the terrible, static, poses. The Diaz models had life, they where twirling, swirling, leaping and bounding. They where dancing. The new ones are great clodhopping clubfooted and clumsy aberrations.
B) The awful piranha faces. They do not look good, they look bloody awful.

Deadnight wrote:

Asterios wrote:
problem is kids don't think like that, kids these days are all about quick and fast and easy, which is why Magic and Yu-Gi-Oh and STAW and such are big hits with kids, it doesn't take a lot, 9 out of 10 kids will go for those games while maybe 1 will go for a game like GW, games like GW are strongly in the college crowd domain and adult domain. been to several big GW games at some local game stores and at most might see 1 or 2 kids playing(highschool or less), go to a Magic or Yu-Gi-Oh game the kids outnumber the adults playing.

Asterios wrote:
problem is when you have a choice between a dozen miniatures or so or the newest video game, which do you think kids will pick ?

Personally I view it a bit different. This is a pretty niche hobby. Always was. Always will be. And for the same reason that the theatre still survives in an era of dvds, cinema, tv, video games etc, table rob wargames and 'old school' crafts and hobbies will always have an appeal to some. In a global context, it is enough.

Regarding the adult/kiddie divide for 40k, I disagree with both terms. 40k is neither. It is somewhat different. It is a juvenile pulp IP. When you're young, it seems dark and grown up, because it appeals to the less mature, less 'grown up' side of you. But it's just noise and flashing lights, really. It's not really grown up, it's what grown up seems like to young uns. Or what they interpret and wish grown up to be. But it's certainly not kiddie at the same time. When you're all grown up, the very same lore you loved in 40k is tacky, one dimensional, and juvenile.

I think rather than the adult/kiddie divide, I think we need to realise we ourselves are older. And get older. It's our perspectives that change, not necessarily the lore's presentation. The stuff you loved a story a twelve year old is the same stuff current twelve year olds are engrossed by. If they read the lore you loved when you were twelve, they would love it too. And see is all as part of the same whole. But also. Back when you were twelve, adults would have scoffed at the stuff you found enthralling, just as you do the same to the current generation of twelve year olds engrossed by the lore.

People get older, people's perception of life changes. Thst is all.

you want 12 year old kids to even look at the models then you have to slap some titties on them, other then that the average 12 year old will look at the game and go meh, look around you at your local gaming store how many 12 year olds play Warhammer? then look how many are playing Magic or Yu-Gi-Oh, then look around how many playing video games, miniatures you have to build and paint are not attracting kids, they don't want to play a game where you have to work to play, they want instant gratification when it comes to their gaming experience, not a slow build up.

and these are not my thoughts, these are what I see around me, hell my own nieces and nephews and such wouldn't even give 40K a second glance, i show them my minis and they go cool and then back to their pokemon games looking for pokemon.

and the reason the Theaters survive still today is because you can't get the DVD that fast yet (legally or good) and because everyhing else is just too small to watch a big movie on, me personally i haven't been to a theater in years but know it still has appeal.