Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So a friend and I were having a discussion about the Tzeentch discipline in the CSM codex and how giving FnP to your enemy was kinda the weirdest idea GW ever produced. Then, out of nowhere, I had this crazier idea : what if the ammunitions of the Thousand Sons (who are already AP3) forced a unit which suffered wounds from it (at least one) to pass a thoughness or leadership test, and if the test was a failure, then one model was to be removed to be replaced by a Chaos Spawn (under the TS player's control) immediatly placed in CC with the unit in question.

What do you think of this idea ?

Probably too powerful. Shoot at a Squad with AP3 (Bolters, but still AP3) and if you get a single wound, you might be locked in combat with a free 30 Point unit?

Maybe pay a tax for it ? Or require a formation to use this abilty ?

My fix for them gave them Heavy Bolters and Autocannons and various "stances" to kinda make them Sternguard-ish.

 Warzoner wrote:
So a friend and I were having a discussion about the Tzeentch discipline in the CSM codex and how giving FnP to your enemy was kinda the weirdest idea GW ever produced. Then, out of nowhere, I had this crazier idea : what if the ammunitions of the Thousand Sons (who are already AP3) forced a unit which suffered wounds from it (at least one) to pass a thoughness or leadership test, and if the test was a failure, then one model was to be removed to be replaced by a Chaos Spawn (under the TS player's control) immediatly placed in CC with the unit in question.

What do you think of this idea ?

I'm afraid I'm not a huge fan of this. It requires a little extra rolling after each salvo of inferno bolts, it allows you to potentially pump out a lot of chaos spawn essentially for free, and it doesn't really scream "Thousand Sons" to me (although it isn't contrary to their fluff either).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
My fix for them gave them Heavy Bolters and Autocannons and various "stances" to kinda make them Sternguard-ish.

This I like. There's no reason Thousand Sons shouldn't be able to take a mix of weapons including a couple heavy guns (1 per 5?). It's arguably even easier to inscribe the larger shells with the ritual marks that give them their oomph! This would significantly up the damage output and flexibility of a unit of Thousand Sons. How would you feel about lowering their base cost a bit and then having several (2 or 3) types of magical ammo that they can use? So Inferno Bolts might be X points per model in the unit, but you might also have "Soul Hunter" bolts that ignore cover or "Warp Light" rounds that are only AP4 but cause blind tests or something. So players could take as many of these special ammunition types as they want but pay more for the flexibility. Or they can forego special ammo altogether and choose to save points instead.

This is something I've changed my opinion on.

Personally, I don't think that Thousand Sons are a bad unit.

For 23 ppm, they come with:

S4, AP 3 bolters that don't get hot. (Sternguard vengeance rounds get hot and only have an 18 inch maximum range.)

A 4+ invuln. They just get that. That's just part of the deal. A 4+ invuln. Including on the sorcerer.

Slow and purposeful. So they can double tap their AP 3 bolters and still charge with the sorcerer who comes stock with a force weapon.

The problem with T-sons isn't the T-sons. In and of themselves, they're a fine unit, especially if you're using them with ahriman. Because then, in addition to being able to camp objectives and slaughter MEQs, they also provide warp charges for Ahriman's witchfires.

The problem with T-sons is the meta.

In a game with superheavy vehicles, riptides, dreadknights, wraithknights, etc., an AP3 bolter doesn't really cut it. And in a game with scatterbikes, flyrants with twin-linked devourerers and grav cannons with grav amps, a 4+ invuln doesn't really mean much. And in a game where every man and his grandmother is on a bike, good luck catching anything with that 24 inch range. In fact, in a game where half the meta gets 4+, 3+ or even 2+ rerollable jinks or a fething 3+ invuln or better, yeah, that AP 3 doesn't mean much.

My proposal:

Keep t-sons as is. My only real recommendation is to let them take a heavy bolter that shoots AP 3 rounds.

Nerf other things in the game.

Increase the troop requirement.

If you really want to Spawnify the enemy I'd suggest looking at the unpronounceable Tzeentch Daemon Lord's effect. Have a chance of making a Spawn if you wipe a unit with shooting, not if you inflict any casualties at all.

Alternately roll the Spawnification into the Tzeentchian heavy weapons idea? Special cursed heavy bolter shell, one shot at normal profile (possibly with no AP to keep this from borking Fire Warriors too hard), if that specific shot kills a model then it makes a Spawn (or rolls to make a Spawn)?

 Traditio wrote:
This is something I've changed my opinion on.

Personally, I don't think that Thousand Sons are a bad unit.

For 23 ppm, they come with:

S4, AP 3 bolters that don't get hot. (Sternguard vengeance rounds get hot and only have an 18 inch maximum range.)

A 4+ invuln. They just get that. That's just part of the deal. A 4+ invuln. Including on the sorcerer.

Slow and purposeful. So they can double tap their AP 3 bolters and still charge with the sorcerer who comes stock with a force weapon.

The problem with T-sons isn't the T-sons. In and of themselves, they're a fine unit, especially if you're using them with ahriman. Because then, in addition to being able to camp objectives and slaughter MEQs, they also provide warp charges for Ahriman's witchfires.

The problem with T-sons is the meta.

In a game with superheavy vehicles, riptides, dreadknights, wraithknights, etc., an AP3 bolter doesn't really cut it. And in a game with scatterbikes, flyrants with twin-linked devourerers and grav cannons with grav amps, a 4+ invuln doesn't really mean much. And in a game where every man and his grandmother is on a bike, good luck catching anything with that 24 inch range. In fact, in a game where half the meta gets 4+, 3+ or even 2+ rerollable jinks or a fething 3+ invuln or better, yeah, that AP 3 doesn't mean much.

My proposal:

Keep t-sons as is. My only real recommendation is to let them take a heavy bolter that shoots AP 3 rounds.

Nerf other things in the game.

Increase the troop requirement.

You want proof they're bad? 10 Marines with 2 Plasma Guns is better vs everything and basically the same price. In a shootout, the vanilla ones will win, and it is a Slaughter if they have cover.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
(Quote truncated for brevity)
You want proof they're bad? 10 Marines with 2 Plasma Guns is better vs everything and basically the same price. In a shootout, the vanilla ones will win, and it is a Slaughter if they have cover.

10 Space Marines with two plasma guns are 170pts, 10 Thousand Sons are 230pts. The Thousand Sons wipe the Marines in two rounds whether or not they shoot first, the Marines take four rounds to do it. Your math may not have factored the Thousand Sons' 4++ in.

(Amusing sidenote: the Thousand Sons will kill the Marines long before the Marines lose anyone to Gets Hot!, which takes five rounds on average)

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
(Quote truncated for brevity)
You want proof they're bad? 10 Marines with 2 Plasma Guns is better vs everything and basically the same price. In a shootout, the vanilla ones will win, and it is a Slaughter if they have cover.

10 Space Marines with two plasma guns are 170pts, 10 Thousand Sons are 230pts. The Thousand Sons wipe the Marines in two rounds whether or not they shoot first, the Marines take four rounds to do it. Your math may not have factored the Thousand Sons' 4++ in.

(Amusing sidenote: the Thousand Sons will kill the Marines long before the Marines lose anyone to Gets Hot!, which takes five rounds on average)

For the price of the 10 SM you only get 6 1Ksons and the SM should easily have a 4+ cover save as well

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
(Quote truncated for brevity)
You want proof they're bad? 10 Marines with 2 Plasma Guns is better vs everything and basically the same price. In a shootout, the vanilla ones will win, and it is a Slaughter if they have cover.

10 Space Marines with two plasma guns are 170pts, 10 Thousand Sons are 230pts. The Thousand Sons wipe the Marines in two rounds whether or not they shoot first, the Marines take four rounds to do it. Your math may not have factored the Thousand Sons' 4++ in.

(Amusing sidenote: the Thousand Sons will kill the Marines long before the Marines lose anyone to Gets Hot!, which takes five rounds on average)

You're failing to compare similar point costs.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
(Quote truncated for brevity)
You want proof they're bad? 10 Marines with 2 Plasma Guns is better vs everything and basically the same price. In a shootout, the vanilla ones will win, and it is a Slaughter if they have cover.

10 Space Marines with two plasma guns are 170pts, 10 Thousand Sons are 230pts. The Thousand Sons wipe the Marines in two rounds whether or not they shoot first, the Marines take four rounds to do it. Your math may not have factored the Thousand Sons' 4++ in.

(Amusing sidenote: the Thousand Sons will kill the Marines long before the Marines lose anyone to Gets Hot!, which takes five rounds on average)

You're failing to compare similar point costs.

All right, then. Point by point one Thousand Son is worth 1.64 Marines, one Marine kills 0.22 Thousand Sons per shot, one Thousand Son kills 0.67. It takes 63pts of Space Marine to kill 23pts of Thousand Son (2.7x), it takes 35pts of Thousand Son to kill 14pts of Space Marine (2.5x). The costs are looking pretty fair from where I'm standing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
(Quote truncated for brevity)
You want proof they're bad? 10 Marines with 2 Plasma Guns is better vs everything and basically the same price. In a shootout, the vanilla ones will win, and it is a Slaughter if they have cover.

10 Space Marines with two plasma guns are 170pts, 10 Thousand Sons are 230pts. The Thousand Sons wipe the Marines in two rounds whether or not they shoot first, the Marines take four rounds to do it. Your math may not have factored the Thousand Sons' 4++ in.

(Amusing sidenote: the Thousand Sons will kill the Marines long before the Marines lose anyone to Gets Hot!, which takes five rounds on average)

For the price of the 10 SM you only get 6 1Ksons and the SM should easily have a 4+ cover save as well

I try to do these comparisons in a vacuum. I don't assume the Marines are getting a 4+ cover save any more than I'm assuming the Thousand Sons have a cast of Endurance up, even though both could happen during the game depending on external factors.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
(Quote truncated for brevity)
You want proof they're bad? 10 Marines with 2 Plasma Guns is better vs everything and basically the same price. In a shootout, the vanilla ones will win, and it is a Slaughter if they have cover.

10 Space Marines with two plasma guns are 170pts, 10 Thousand Sons are 230pts. The Thousand Sons wipe the Marines in two rounds whether or not they shoot first, the Marines take four rounds to do it. Your math may not have factored the Thousand Sons' 4++ in.

(Amusing sidenote: the Thousand Sons will kill the Marines long before the Marines lose anyone to Gets Hot!, which takes five rounds on average)

For the price of the 10 SM you only get 6 1Ksons and the SM should easily have a 4+ cover save as well

I try to do these comparisons in a vacuum. I don't assume the Marines are getting a 4+ cover save any more than I'm assuming the Thousand Sons have a cast of Endurance up, even though both could happen during the game depending on external factors.

The problem is you don't play 1Ksons in a vacuum and cover is SO easy to get that yeah it really is the reason that iksons suck

 CrownAxe wrote:
(Quote truncated for brevity)
The problem is you don't play 1Ksons in a vacuum and cover is SO easy to get that yeah it really is the reason that iksons suck

...So Thousand Sons suck because without buffs and terrain advantages they're worse than other armies' troops with buffs and terrain advantages?

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
(Quote truncated for brevity)
The problem is you don't play 1Ksons in a vacuum and cover is SO easy to get that yeah it really is the reason that iksons suck

...So Thousand Sons suck because without buffs and terrain advantages they're worse than other armies' troops with buffs and terrain advantages?

Cover isn't a buff, its a core game mechanic. In 7ed all units can easily get cover just like all units can shoot a gun. It's not something you can ignore just because it's not in the unit's rules

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
(Quote truncated for brevity)
You want proof they're bad? 10 Marines with 2 Plasma Guns is better vs everything and basically the same price. In a shootout, the vanilla ones will win, and it is a Slaughter if they have cover.

10 Space Marines with two plasma guns are 170pts, 10 Thousand Sons are 230pts. The Thousand Sons wipe the Marines in two rounds whether or not they shoot first, the Marines take four rounds to do it. Your math may not have factored the Thousand Sons' 4++ in.

(Amusing sidenote: the Thousand Sons will kill the Marines long before the Marines lose anyone to Gets Hot!, which takes five rounds on average)

You're failing to compare similar point costs.

All right, then. Point by point one Thousand Son is worth 1.64 Marines, one Marine kills 0.22 Thousand Sons per shot, one Thousand Son kills 0.67. It takes 63pts of Space Marine to kill 23pts of Thousand Son (2.7x), it takes 35pts of Thousand Son to kill 14pts of Space Marine (2.5x). The costs are looking pretty fair from where I'm standing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
(Quote truncated for brevity)
You want proof they're bad? 10 Marines with 2 Plasma Guns is better vs everything and basically the same price. In a shootout, the vanilla ones will win, and it is a Slaughter if they have cover.

10 Space Marines with two plasma guns are 170pts, 10 Thousand Sons are 230pts. The Thousand Sons wipe the Marines in two rounds whether or not they shoot first, the Marines take four rounds to do it. Your math may not have factored the Thousand Sons' 4++ in.

(Amusing sidenote: the Thousand Sons will kill the Marines long before the Marines lose anyone to Gets Hot!, which takes five rounds on average)

For the price of the 10 SM you only get 6 1Ksons and the SM should easily have a 4+ cover save as well

I try to do these comparisons in a vacuum. I don't assume the Marines are getting a 4+ cover save any more than I'm assuming the Thousand Sons have a cast of Endurance up, even though both could happen during the game depending on external factors.

Then you can assume that we will have two plasma guns and maybe even a Combi-Plasma.

No, Rubrics are garbage. Defending them is literally a mathematical error on your end.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
(Quote truncated for brevity)
Then you can assume that we will have two plasma guns and maybe even a Combi-Plasma.

No, Rubrics are garbage. Defending them is literally a mathematical error on your end.

...Fine. Find it for me. Do the math yourself. Address my point. Stop telling me "You're wrong, shut up".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
(Quote truncated for brevity)
The problem is you don't play 1Ksons in a vacuum and cover is SO easy to get that yeah it really is the reason that iksons suck

...So Thousand Sons suck because without buffs and terrain advantages they're worse than other armies' troops with buffs and terrain advantages?

Cover isn't a buff, its a core game mechanic. In 7ed all units can easily get cover just like all units can shoot a gun. It's not something you can ignore just because it's not in the unit's rules

Cool. Cover is in the core rules. Woo. Now explain to me why I should be comparing Thousand Sons in a vacuum to Tactical Marines with an environmental advantage.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
(Quote truncated for brevity)
Then you can assume that we will have two plasma guns and maybe even a Combi-Plasma.

No, Rubrics are garbage. Defending them is literally a mathematical error on your end.

...Fine. Find it for me. Do the math yourself. Address my point. Stop telling me "You're wrong, shut up".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
(Quote truncated for brevity)
The problem is you don't play 1Ksons in a vacuum and cover is SO easy to get that yeah it really is the reason that iksons suck

...So Thousand Sons suck because without buffs and terrain advantages they're worse than other armies' troops with buffs and terrain advantages?

Cover isn't a buff, its a core game mechanic. In 7ed all units can easily get cover just like all units can shoot a gun. It's not something you can ignore just because it's not in the unit's rules

Cool. Cover is in the core rules. Woo. Now explain to me why I should be comparing Thousand Sons in a vacuum to Tactical Marines with an environmental advantage.

Because every game of 40k has terrain that gives cover. And you SHOULDN'T compare Thousand Sons to Tactical MArines in a vacuum because you don't play games of 40k in a vacuum.

 Warzoner wrote:
So a friend and I were having a discussion about the Tzeentch discipline in the CSM codex and how giving FnP to your enemy was kinda the weirdest idea GW ever produced. Then, out of nowhere, I had this crazier idea : what if the ammunitions of the Thousand Sons (who are already AP3) forced a unit which suffered wounds from it (at least one) to pass a thoughness or leadership test, and if the test was a failure, then one model was to be removed to be replaced by a Chaos Spawn (under the TS player's control) immediatly placed in CC with the unit in question.

What do you think of this idea ?

No. This would make them stupidly powerful espically in a meta that rewards MSU. Imagine shooting 10 units a turn and even 1/3 means your adding 90 points to the board a turn. On top of that you would basically be able to wreck all shooting armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You want proof they're bad? 10 Marines with 2 Plasma Guns is better vs everything and basically the same price. In a shootout, the vanilla ones will win, and it is a Slaughter if they have cover.

Really? Everything? What about bale flamers? They better against that? I'm going to go out on a limb and say no.

What about battle cannons, "but muh cover" I hear you saying, that's right cram that unit togeather to get that cover save I get more hits. That thousand sons unit though they suck I can only get like 4 hits since they can spread out and don't have to worry about.

What about objective markers in the open? How do they fare in that situation?

Way better in all of them in fact. It's not just about how well they kill it's about what they can survive. Stop thinking so one dimensionally.

 CrownAxe wrote:
(Quote truncated for brevity)
Because every game of 40k has terrain that gives cover. And you SHOULDN'T compare Thousand Sons to Tactical MArines because you don't play games of 40k in a vacuum.

...Okay, then. You lot have been trying to explain that Thousand Sons are terrible because they're worse than Tactical Marines. Now you're telling me it's a bad comparison. What's your basis for saying Thousand Sons are 'terrible'? Compared to what? Based on what?

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
(Quote truncated for brevity)
Because every game of 40k has terrain that gives cover. And you SHOULDN'T compare Thousand Sons to Tactical MArines because you don't play games of 40k in a vacuum.

...Okay, then. You lot have been trying to explain that Thousand Sons are terrible because they're worse than Tactical Marines. Now you're telling me it's a bad comparison. What's your basis for saying Thousand Sons are 'terrible'? Compared to what? Based on what?

Thats a typo that i now have fixed, i meant to say you shouldn't compare them IN A VACUUM

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Warzoner wrote:
So a friend and I were having a discussion about the Tzeentch discipline in the CSM codex and how giving FnP to your enemy was kinda the weirdest idea GW ever produced. Then, out of nowhere, I had this crazier idea : what if the ammunitions of the Thousand Sons (who are already AP3) forced a unit which suffered wounds from it (at least one) to pass a thoughness or leadership test, and if the test was a failure, then one model was to be removed to be replaced by a Chaos Spawn (under the TS player's control) immediatly placed in CC with the unit in question.

What do you think of this idea ?

No. This would make them stupidly powerful espically in a meta that rewards MSU. Imagine shooting 10 units a turn and even 1/3 means your adding 90 points to the board a turn. On top of that you would basically be able to wreck all shooting armies.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You want proof they're bad? 10 Marines with 2 Plasma Guns is better vs everything and basically the same price. In a shootout, the vanilla ones will win, and it is a Slaughter if they have cover.

Really? Everything? What about bale flamers? They better against that? I'm going to go out on a limb and say no.

What about battle cannons, "but muh cover" I hear you saying, that's right cram that unit togeather to get that cover save I get more hits. That thousand sons unit though they suck I can only get like 4 hits since they can spread out and don't have to worry about.

What about objective markers in the open? How do they fare in that situation?

Way better in all of them in fact. It's not just about how well they kill it's about what they can survive. Stop thinking so one dimensionally.

Actually I'd argue more durable to Cannons and Baleflamers. There's around 10 Marines in a squad to your six. This means two things.
1. The flamer won't get all of the Marines, but about 2/3 of the Rubrics will be covered. That means special weapons can be safe to go another round, and therefore the reduction in firepower is not as significant. Compare that to Rubrics, where 2-3 will die and their firepower is even worse.
2. The same logic will apply with the Battle Cannon.

Therefore I'm fine with having Vanilla Marines in the open rather than Rubrics. They're garbage in all aspects of what they try to do and you need to accept it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Remember: you get two Marines for a little over a Rubric. That says a lot.

 Traditio wrote:
This is something I've changed my opinion on.

Personally, I don't think that Thousand Sons are a bad unit.

For 23 ppm, they come with:

S4, AP 3 bolters that don't get hot. (Sternguard vengeance rounds get hot and only have an 18 inch maximum range.)

A 4+ invuln. They just get that. That's just part of the deal. A 4+ invuln. Including on the sorcerer.

Slow and purposeful. So they can double tap their AP 3 bolters and still charge with the sorcerer who comes stock with a force weapon.

The problem with T-sons isn't the T-sons. In and of themselves, they're a fine unit, especially if you're using them with ahriman. Because then, in addition to being able to camp objectives and slaughter MEQs, they also provide warp charges for Ahriman's witchfires.

The problem with T-sons is the meta.

In a game with superheavy vehicles, riptides, dreadknights, wraithknights, etc., an AP3 bolter doesn't really cut it. And in a game with scatterbikes, flyrants with twin-linked devourerers and grav cannons with grav amps, a 4+ invuln doesn't really mean much. And in a game where every man and his grandmother is on a bike, good luck catching anything with that 24 inch range. In fact, in a game where half the meta gets 4+, 3+ or even 2+ rerollable jinks or a fething 3+ invuln or better, yeah, that AP 3 doesn't mean much.

My proposal:

Keep t-sons as is. My only real recommendation is to let them take a heavy bolter that shoots AP 3 rounds.

Nerf other things in the game.

Increase the troop requirement.

I agree with some of that. AP 3 bolters are nice when you find a low toughness, 3+ save target out in the open, preferably within rapid-fire range. Inferno bolts are nice, but they aren't really enough of a boon to carry the unit by themselves. The sorcerer's force weapon is also quite nice, but they can't throw many dice at force (or at their other psychic powers) for fear of killing themselves with perils. 10,000 years old, and wouldn't you know that today is the day they lose concentration and perils themselves to death!

A 4+ invulnerable save is nice, but weirdly contrary to rubric marines' fluff. Small arms fire is meant to bounce off of them while big guns are the only way to reliably take them out of the fight for a while. Instead, that 4+ invul means they're weirdly durable against anti-tank fire while being just as vulnerable to small arms as the next marine. So a 4+ invul isn't mechanically bad, but it isn't really a good fluff fit for them. It's like if they fixed dark eldar wyches by giving them all heavy weapons.

Slow & Purposeful is fluffy and weirdly useful for them. I fully support the idea of giving them heavy bolters (or even other special and heavy weapons) to take advantage of this.

Saying that the problem with Thousand Sons is that other units are more powerful is technically true, but you could say that about anything. "My gretchin would be great if everyone else was toughness 1!" I'm all for nerfing some of the more powerful things out there, but I'm not sure it's fair to say that Thousand Sons are in a good place as they are either. As mentioned above, they don't really match their fluff in terms of durability, their psykers are oddly susceptible to spontaneously dying for being 10,000 year old wizards, aspiring sorceres have a 1/3rd chance of generating boon of mutation which is actually contrary to their fluff, and there's a strong argument that sternguard, their closest analogue, are considerably better for comparable points. Heck, there's an argument that tac marines are better for fewer points. So with all that said, their rules don't really convey their fluff well, and they also don't allow them to match up especially well against similarly priced units from other books. The meta is far from perfect, but there's more going on here than scatbikes being OP.

Wyldhunt:

I wish to note in advance that my points have nothing to do with fluff. I don't care in the least about the fluff when it comes to rules. A model represents a ruleset. That ruleset comes with a given points value.

Currently, the T-sons represent a set of rules valued at 23 ppm plus a 50ish point set of rules.

My point is simply that the rule-set that they currently have is proportionate to their points cost. Call it fluffy or unfluffy; I really don't care. A 4+ invuln is worth something. AP 3 bolters are worth something. Slow and purposeful is worth something.

I don't think that thousand sons are overcosted or underpowered. The problem with thousand sons is the general problem of this game in general:

The scale of the game has gotten fething out of control after 5th edition and points cost are all over the fething map.

Thousand sons and Imperial Knights do not belong in the same game, and there is no way in feth that 2 thousand sons squads + rhinos = 1 imperial knight OR LESS. No fething way.

Compare the cost of a thousand sons squad to a dakka flyrant. Compare thousand sons to a fething wraithknight.

It's complete bullgak.

The scale is off. The points are all over the place

But if you ignore the OP bullgak and the scale extremities, thousand sons are about where they should be.

You might claim that their current ruleset is unfluffy. But from a purely gameplay mechanics standpoint, I don't really care.

Wyldhunt wrote:I agree with some of that. AP 3 bolters are nice when you find a low toughness, 3+ save target out in the open, preferably within rapid-fire range. Inferno bolts are nice, but they aren't really enough of a boon to carry the unit by themselves. The sorcerer's force weapon is also quite nice, but they can't throw many dice at force (or at their other psychic powers) for fear of killing themselves with perils. 10,000 years old, and wouldn't you know that today is the day they lose concentration and perils themselves to death!

Then don't cast force. Even independently of the force USR, you are still left with a squad that can double tap S4, AP 3 bolters and then charge in, deal 8 S4, AP - attacks and 3 (I think?) S4, AP 3 attacks (assuming force sword).

All of whom have 4+ invulns, and the sorcerer has assault grenades.

And all while generating 1 warp charge per turn for Ahriman.

Slow & Purposeful is fluffy and weirdly useful for them. I fully support the idea of giving them heavy bolters (or even other special and heavy weapons) to take advantage of this.

Heavy bolter thousand squad in a rhino. AP 3 heavy bolter rounds. I'd take that 10 point upgrade all day every day.

Saying that the problem with Thousand Sons is that other units are more powerful is technically true, but you could say that about anything.

Except, that's not what I'm saying. Pedro Kantor is more powerful, by far, than a single thousand sons model. He also costs roughly 160 points more.

My point isn't that other things are more powerful than thousand sons. My point is that the game currently doesn't support an infantry-heavy meta, which is precisely where thousand sons thrive. No. We have OP, undercosted bullgak like wraithknights and imperial knights walking around.

"My gretchin would be great if everyone else was toughness 1!" I'm all for nerfing some of the more powerful things out there, but I'm not sure it's fair to say that Thousand Sons are in a good place as they are either. As mentioned above, they don't really match their fluff

Again, I don't give even a single feth about the fluff. Is their current ruleset proportionate to their points cost?

I think that the answer is an obvious "yes."

 Traditio wrote:
Wyldhunt:

I wish to note in advance that my points have nothing to do with fluff. I don't care in the least about the fluff when it comes to rules. A model represents a ruleset. That ruleset comes with a given points value.

Currently, the T-sons represent a set of rules valued at 23 ppm plus a 50ish point set of rules.

My point is simply that the rule-set that they currently have is proportionate to their points cost. Call it fluffy or unfluffy; I really don't care. A 4+ invuln is worth something. AP 3 bolters are worth something. Slow and purposeful is worth something.

I don't think that thousand sons are overcosted or underpowered. The problem with thousand sons is the general problem of this game in general:

The scale of the game has gotten fething out of control after 5th edition and points cost are all over the fething map.

Thousand sons and Imperial Knights do not belong in the same game, and there is no way in feth that 2 thousand sons squads + rhinos = 1 imperial knight OR LESS. No fething way.

Compare the cost of a thousand sons squad to a dakka flyrant. Compare thousand sons to a fething wraithknight.

It's complete bullgak.

The scale is off. The points are all over the place

But if you ignore the OP bullgak and the scale extremities, thousand sons are about where they should be.

You might claim that their current ruleset is unfluffy. But from a purely gameplay mechanics standpoint, I don't really care.

Wyldhunt wrote:I agree with some of that. AP 3 bolters are nice when you find a low toughness, 3+ save target out in the open, preferably within rapid-fire range. Inferno bolts are nice, but they aren't really enough of a boon to carry the unit by themselves. The sorcerer's force weapon is also quite nice, but they can't throw many dice at force (or at their other psychic powers) for fear of killing themselves with perils. 10,000 years old, and wouldn't you know that today is the day they lose concentration and perils themselves to death!

Then don't cast force. Even independently of the force USR, you are still left with a squad that can double tap S4, AP 3 bolters and then charge in, deal 8 S4, AP - attacks and 3 (I think?) S4, AP 3 attacks (assuming force sword).

All of whom have 4+ invulns, and the sorcerer has assault grenades.

Slow & Purposeful is fluffy and weirdly useful for them. I fully support the idea of giving them heavy bolters (or even other special and heavy weapons) to take advantage of this.

Heavy bolter thousand squad in a rhino. AP 3 heavy bolter rounds. I'd take that 10 point upgrade all day every day.

Saying that the problem with Thousand Sons is that other units are more powerful is technically true, but you could say that about anything.

Except, that's not what I'm saying. Pedro Kantor is more powerful, by far, than a single thousand sons model. He also costs roughly 160 points more.

My point isn't that other things are more powerful than thousand sons. My point is that the game currently doesn't support an infantry-heavy meta, which is precisely where thousand sons thrive. No. We have OP, undercosted bullgak like wraithknights and imperial knights walking around.

"My gretchin would be great if everyone else was toughness 1!" I'm all for nerfing some of the more powerful things out there, but I'm not sure it's fair to say that Thousand Sons are in a good place as they are either. As mentioned above, they don't really match their fluff

Again, I don't give even a single feth about the fluff. Is their current ruleset proportionate to their points cost?

I think that the answer is an obvious "yes."

They have no options, get one roll on a bad table, don't hit as hard as regular Marines for the cost, and the main thing they're supposed to be effective against laughs when in cover.

No, they're not good.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:They have no options

I agree that this is problematic, but this is a problem with the chaos codex in general, and this is one great thing about the vanilla space marines codex.

As a vanilla marine player, I can pretty much run whatever kind of army I want.

CSM players are much more constrained.

get one roll on a bad table

It's not that bad, all things considered. You automatically get firestorm of tzeentch, which isn't necessarily a bad power.

And you're simply missing the point here:

Why are you using the warp charge to power an aspiring sorcerer's powers? They should be feeding Ahriman's witchfires.

don't hit as hard as regular Marines for the cost

This is not a fair assessment. You're not just paying for raw firepower. You're paying for a warp-charge, durability against low-AP attacks and the ability to shoot and charge in the same turn.

and the main thing they're supposed to be effective against laughs when in cover.

This is not an argument. This holds true about pretty much any low-AP weapon.

And this is the problem with 40k in general. The competitive players expect automatic win buttons and no strategy. Yes, hiding in cover should be a legitimate strategy. That doesn't mean that your lascannon is worthless. It means that you should actually use your fething head and rely on strategy over OP bullgak.

 Traditio wrote:
And this is the problem with 40k in general. The competitive players expect automatic win buttons and no strategy. Yes, hiding in cover should be a legitimate strategy. That doesn't mean that your lascannon is worthless. It means that you should actually use your fething head and rely on strategy over OP bullgak.

Sort of like expecting Flakk Missiles to be the perfect anti-air, neh?

And there's definitely strategy competitively. Yes, everyone is bringing a nuke, but that simply means the power level is higher, not that strategy vanishes.

JNAProductions wrote:Sort of like expecting Flakk Missiles to be the perfect anti-air, neh?

That's what flakk missiles are for. I mean, they're not supposed to be "perfect anti-air." But yes, flakk missiles are actually supposed to deal damage to flyers. That's why I would pay, e.g., 170 points for a devastator squad with missile launchers with flakk.

I'll deal with this in the FMC thread, but yes, this actually hilights my point.

Why don't you want a 4+ armor dakka flyrant? Because you don't want to have to use terrain, etc. to your advantage. You want to move your flyrant wherever you want, do whatever you want, etc. without my being able to do anything about it. You want literal immunity from most of the game. You don't want to have to make meaningful decisions during the movement phase. You just want your automatic win button.

Tradito, a 3+ armor save is not an instant win button. Notice how marines are considered trash, despite having a 3+. A dev squad with Flakk missiles will, most likely, take a wound off a Flyrant in one round of shooting, giving you a 1/3 chance of grounding it, whereafter you can assault it and tie it up on the ground. In addition, you have other anti-air options than just flakk missiles-they're the generalist option, so of course they won't be as good as dedicated anti-air weapons. (Plus, Flyers can't take advantage of terrain. They're flying.)

To keep the thread a little more on topic, how about this for special issue ammunition?

Hailfire Rounds-AP4 Ignores Cover
Psi-Bolts-S5 AP5
Disruption Bolts-S4 AP5 Psi-Shock

 JNAProductions wrote:
Tradito, a 3+ armor save is not an instant win button.

No. It's not. But that's not why people take dakka flyrants, is it? It's not just because it's a random 3+ armor save. It's a 3+ model that most models can't reliably hit, and among those who can reliably hit it, most can't reliably bypass its save.

So you practically never have to jink. No, you can put the model wherever you want, use whatever powers you want and fire 12 S6 twinlinked shots into whatever squads you want...and there's basically nothing your opponent can do about it under most circumstances (unless he's brought low AP skyfire weapons, which are the slim minority in the game overall).

Because heavens help you if you actually have to play a fair game and have roughly a 50/50 shot, independently of player skill, of losing.

Plus, Flyers can't take advantage of terrain. They're flying.)

The game uses actual line of sight. If I can't see your flyrant, I can't shoot it.

Hailfire Rounds-AP4 Ignores Cover
Psi-Bolts-S5 AP5
Disruption Bolts-S4 AP5 Psi-Shock

Absolutely not. That would make them disproportionately better than sternguard.