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TSS, you were the one who brought up being spread out. Not him.

Yeah, I haven't a clue why that even matters. Some are behind others but so long as LoS exists you're fine.

Wyldhunt wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You literally created a loadout for the Rubrics that cannot be done. That's your issue.

For 173 it is the 5 Rubrics and a Sorcerer. For 170 it is 10 Marines with two plasma guns. 180 makes it with a Combi-Plasma. 178 gives those Rubrics a Melta Bomb.

No my issue is your flawed logic. Your saying that your unit is totally spread out while in cover and they are all able to fire, you cant have all of those unless your playing on a map that is all cover. If you want the plasma rifles to shoot then they need to be at the front not the back, which means they die first not last. You are trying to say that CSM have every advantage when they don't.

I politely disagree. The tables I see around here are usually pretty thick with Ruins. Combine that with the unreliable nature of an aspiring sorcerer's psychic attacks, and the marines don't necessarily have a great reason to spread out unless the chaos forces happen to have a hell turkey or some blast weapons as well. Which they very well might, but they very well might not either. Twelve inches isn't a lot of range, but isn't all that difficult to get reach with a unit that can drop pod into position either. The more unrealistic thing about the scenario is that these two units would shoot at one another for multiple turns without getting ganged up on or assaulted by other units. Which I suppose is technically a point in the tac marines' favor as they would really only realistically be in position to fire their plasmas once or twice anyway.

It's also worth pointing out that tactical marines aren't generally considered to be especially good for their points either. So even if rubricae can compare reasonably well against them, that's not necessarily saying much.

First were talking about CSM not Tac Marines just FYI. Second if you bring a unit and don't think about that units weaknesses, and how to mitigate those weaknesses then that is a failure of the player not the model. Third even if he does get in a set of ruins I can re-position until I have the advantage, because he has to stay in cover and I can move freely. If he keeps re-positioning, then he keeps rolling dangerous terrain tests which, on top of Plasma Guns and gets hot, he will lose 2-3 guys to either terrain or plasma or both. Which gives me the advantage.

That's not how terrain works. You roll Difficult Terrain, not Dangerous.

 JNAProductions wrote:
TSS, you were the one who brought up being spread out. Not him.

Yes, because he said that 10 CSMs with 2 plasma guns were better then 1K Sons in equal points in EVERY situation so I brought up some situations where they clearly and objectively better. But lets recap

10 CSM with 2 Plasma in cover vs a Baleflamer

10 CSM with 2 plasma in cover vs a Battle Cannon (he will still get saves but is now going to take more hits)

Then i said:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

What about battle cannons, "but muh cover" I hear you saying, that's right cram that unit together to get that cover save I get more hits. That thousand sons unit though they suck I can only get like 4 hits since they can spread out and don't have to worry about

Way better in all of them in fact. It's not just about how well they kill it's about what they can survive. Stop thinking so one dimensionally.

I never said anything about what was being shot at them only that they were in the open. When I did point it out he ignored the entire post refusing to read it probably because it again showed him to be objectively wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
That's not how terrain works. You roll Difficult Terrain, not Dangerous.

And that's fine too if he does that then sooner or later he will roll a 1 or a 2 leaving him unable to rapid fire most of his unit while I am able to rapid fire my entire unit. which pushes me into the lead. The simple fact is that his restricted movement gives me an advantage that I can use, and if he comes out of cover then he will lose his cover save and I will chop through his unit.

Have you actually played 40k before? because it sounds like you don't know what you are talking about

10 CSM win out because they have twice the wounds, which makes up for not having 4++ invul

 CrownAxe wrote:
Have you actually played 40k before? because it sounds like you don't know what you are talking about

10 CSM win out because they have twice the wounds, which makes up for not having 4++ invul

Do you know what your talking about? Because they have Bolters which means out of cover 1K Sons has fire 3 times as effective, even with the plasma guns that only slightly increases his offensive power but still only equals my fire power, but then i still have 4 guys with 3 times the effective fire. In cover I lose my greater effective fire, but I gain a mobility advantage. If there in the open I rely on my superior fire, in cover I rely on my superior mobility. I keep pointing out that his 10 man squad is not going to all be able to rapid fire at my squad due to its size, while mine will.

Here's the math

In rapid fire range the 1k Sons do 4 then 3 then 2 wounds each turn with no cover

In rapid fire range the CSM will do 3, then 2 then 1; don't get me wrong they will kill the unit but it will take 4 rounds and they will probably have 3 guys left when everything is said and done.

Now if he jumps in cover that is 5+ then every thing equals out since his save will negate 1/3 of my shooting and he has wounds on me, but at that point I don't go for a strait up fight I begin moving around so he can't fire with half his unit due to its size.

No matter what he does I will win the fight because I understand how to use the unit.

Why are is your comparison CSM and TS shooting each other? No one has made that claim. We all claimed CSM is a better unit because it shoots better against more units then TS do

 CrownAxe wrote:
Why are is your comparison CSM and TS shooting each other? No one has made that claim. We all claimed CSM is a better unit because it shoots better against more units then TS do

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You want proof they're bad? 10 Marines with 2 Plasma Guns is better vs everything and basically the same price. In a shootout, the vanilla ones will win, and it is a Slaughter if they have cover.

You were saying?

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
(Quote truncated for brevity)
Because every game of 40k has terrain that gives cover. And you SHOULDN'T compare Thousand Sons to Tactical MArines because you don't play games of 40k in a vacuum.

...Okay, then. You lot have been trying to explain that Thousand Sons are terrible because they're worse than Tactical Marines. Now you're telling me it's a bad comparison. What's your basis for saying Thousand Sons are 'terrible'? Compared to what? Based on what?

Fine. Get a rhino, it's on the marines "wargear" (so to speak). Give them grav and grav cannon instead of plasma and give sons a rhino too... Oh will you look at it: grav-gun gets 0,33 immobilizes while the cannon gets 1. In two turns they wreck the rhino. Then they start firing their weapons at the sons: the gun kils 0.65 sons and the cannon slaughters 1.5 sons per round. Give it five rounds and theya re all dead. Congrats: your unit of 220-ish points has killed 265-ish points of enemy models without losing casualties!

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
Why are is your comparison CSM and TS shooting each other? No one has made that claim. We all claimed CSM is a better unit because it shoots better against more units then TS do

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You want proof they're bad? 10 Marines with 2 Plasma Guns is better vs everything and basically the same price. In a shootout, the vanilla ones will win, and it is a Slaughter if they have cover.

You were saying?

Yeah a shoot out against over units. He never specified a shoot out vs TS. You're the one making assumptions

Thousand Sons, the units, big issue is that they don't really do anything well. They have a 4++, but T4 3+ just isn't all that durable in the current meta. S4 AP3 with no good access to rerolls or Ignores Cover means that a lowly shrub guts their offensive output and that they're generally outshot by cheaper, more numerous units. They pay 58 points for a 1 Wound Mastery Level 1 Psyker who wastes his power on one of the worst psychic tables in the game and doesn't have access to the one really good piece of non-relic wargear in the codex.

Giving the Sorcerer a second wound, which should really happen for all upgrade/veteran sergeants, helps him immensely. Give him the option to buy a second ML and a Spell Familiar. Give him access to Divination, and stop forcing Tzeentch psykers to waste a die on the Tzeentch table. Now he's a reasonably efficient battle psyker, with access to several good tables for buffing his Sons, helping himself in melee, and/or giving them mobility once outside their Rhino. For the rubricae themselves, give them the "As the Sorcerer Commands" special rule; they have Relentless instead of SnP as long as a Tzeentch psyker is in the unit, and they auto-pass Look Out Sir rolls for any Tzeentch psykers in the unit. Leave the costs alone.

All of that makes the Sorcerer himself better, and enables him to improve the capabilities of his rubricae. It gives Thousand Sons a clear battlefield role: providing semi-durable ablative wounds for Sorcerers. They're still probably too expensive to be a truly competitive option, but they're cheap enough to be an effective tag-along for a more meta-list. Their formations/detachment could focus on making the rubricae themselves more durable and/or deadly, or just double-down on the Sorcerers.