Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So I am looking for a way to play 40k/Apocalypse with real representation of stealth units. I have always thought units like snipers, scouts, stealth suits, mandrakes, etc should have a real way to remain hidden on the field until they shoot or move. Even then they should still be able to have a chance at remaining hidden after the shot/move. I also think things like auspex/psychic powers/etc should have the chance of spotting them, especially if they perform an action. Is there a way to do it without a a gm?

The Stealth/Nightfighting rules from a few editions ago might be more up your alley.

In essence, attempting to fire at a unit required rolling a spotting distance (IIRC, the default was 2d6 x3), with no ability to fire at a different target if you weren't within spotting distance.

Some units just had the default rules (Tau Stealthsuits), while others had an enhanced version of it (Harlequins with a special upgrade character had 2d6 x2, I think).

You could modify this rule with Snap Shots (if you aren't within spotting distance, you can only Snap Shot), and by modifying the spotting distance based on actions (if the stealth unit moves, runs, and/or shoots, a spotter would roll an additional d6 and/or increase the multiplier). Special wargear could negate the rules entirely (appropriate for a Vindicare Assassin, or an equivalent from similarly special characters) or increase the spotting distance (Vehicle Spotlights, Auspex-equipped unit within a certain distance, Servo-skulls, certain Psychic Powers, Markerlight Tokens, etc.).

No, there isn't really an elegant way to do this in a tabletop game where both players have to participate in keeping track of the game state. The best you can do is things like the old night fighting rules or using "unknown unit" tokens to mark a stealth unit's position, where both players are aware of what the stealth unit is doing but their units are unable to engage it effectively.

To properly represent stealth you'd need a GM and one player to leave the room when the other takes their turn, which is a bit of a hassle!

I've been trying to tackle this as part of my own ruleset that I am designing, but as Peregrine and Ashiraya said, you can only do one of two things to even get close to genuine stealth; have a GM monitoring where stealth units actually are on the board, or use empty bases or tokens to represent concealed units.

The third idea I had was to copy diagrams of the game board for each player to mark where their stealth units are, however it would be impossible to "move" these units about fairly due to scale; the best thing it can be used for is marking which quadrant of the board a unit is hiding in for it to attack the enemy and reveal itself.

As others have said, its pretty tough to implement stealth in the sense that the opponent doesnt know where units are.

You might be able to "reverse metagame" the same results though, similar to how players in DnD can use out-of-character knowledge about the rules to gain an edge they wouldn't have with in-character knowledge. An example would be the player knowing what monster they're fighting, as well as its strengths and weaknesses, from the GM's description, despite the character not having that knowledge.

I'm going to work with short/medium range stealth units here (scouts, kommandos, stealth battlesuits) because stealth snipers should have a different dynamic.

Let the stealth unit declare an enemy unit within a certain range as their target. The opponent will now suffer extremely harsh penalties if they perform actions with that unit that don't make sense with the units knowledge.

For example, if I move my unit out of charge range or line of sight, without a reason beyond "i know i'm about to be charged/shot by that stealth unit", the stealth unit gets to attack immediately with huge bonuses, call it flanking or opportunistic strike.

Obviously this isn't perfect, and you would have to specify which conditions do or do not qualify for these bonuses. However, it would in effect create the same result as the opponent not knowing where the unit is, because acting on that knowledge would be worse for them than not.

 mjl7atlas wrote:
So I am looking for a way to play 40k/Apocalypse with real representation of stealth units. I have always thought units like snipers, scouts, stealth suits, mandrakes, etc should have a real way to remain hidden on the field until they shoot or move. Even then they should still be able to have a chance at remaining hidden after the shot/move. I also think things like auspex/psychic powers/etc should have the chance of spotting them, especially if they perform an action. Is there a way to do it without a a gm?

I feel that the method used to represent stealth should really vary a lot depending on the scale of the game you're talking about. In something like apocolypse where most infantry is, in my opinion, just sort of a speedbump/hassle, I'd recommend something that basically takes the unit off the table until they stop sneaking around. Something like placing a token that can't be targeted by enemy attacks or psychic powers until it comes within 12" of the enemy, at which point, they've been spotted. The enemy can't turn their guns on a unit they don't realize is there, and it's easy to miss the small stealthy unit when there are superheavies trundling about.

Alternatively, just have infiltrators/scouts essentially get a no-scatter deepstrik 12" away from their reserve edge per turn that it is. So if you unstealth them on turn 2, they land within 24" of your board edge. Unstealth on turn 3, they get 36" to work with, or 48" on turn 4. Something like that. The idea here is to say, "You can't shoot them. They're being sneaky, and your guns are focused on the big stuff."

In "standard" 40k games, stealth usually represents coming in from an unexpected angle or blending into surroundings in such a way as to be difficult to target. Most of our stealth rules do this pretty well. I kind of like the strikign scorpions rule that gives them shrouded if they infiltrate, but only until they stab or shoot something. It gets slightly awkward when the enemy is actively pumping shots into a unit that remains bizarrely durable by going, "Nope! We're not shooting you, so you can't see us! You don't even know we're here!"

In smaller variants of 40k, you can do more interesting things. 4th edition Kill team (very different from modern Kill Team) had rules for the defenders (the non-sneaky guys) milling about in an uncontrolled fashion and being unable to target the attacker's unit until the alarm was raised. And then they had a bunch of cool rules for silencers and off-screen distractions and so forth that let the attacker remain stealthy.

I also kind of like the idea of a zone mortalis variant themed around the idea of a stealthy killer unit. Mysterious blips on the radar (blip counters) serving as spawning points for the sneaky faction's models provided they spawn outside of line of sight. "Tension" counters acquired when a sneaky model remains within 6" of one or more enemies without entering line of sight that can then be spent on special slasher movie-inspired rules, encouraging the attacker to complete the objective before the killer(s) get them all!

For something like combat patrol, you could use something like...
"Before a unit may fire upon or charge an enemy unit, they must make a spotting check. To spot an enemy unit, the unit attempted to fire or charge rolls 1d6 per current game turn number. So on turn 3, you'd roll 3d6. The results are added together and then multiplied by two. This result is the number of inches away the shooting/charging unit can see. If the enemy is farther away than this "spotting distance," then they may not be targeted by shooting or charges. The attempted shooting attack or charge is wasted. So it gives you a few turns before you can really be targeted by guns, but the enemy's spotting distance improves over time as soldiers become more aware of the situation.

What I'm doing for my rewrite is decoy markers. One marker secretly represents the model/unit, the other two are fakes. You reveal whether the marker is real or fake when enemies get within a certain distance (say 2"-3" X initiative, or a fixed number like 6" or 12").

If you're using stealth for a large group (like say, a squad of space marines), you could use a larger marker (like say, a 50mm base). When the group is revealed, you replace the marker as if the models were deep striking (place one model in center, the rest in concentric circles).

I'm using a Mordheim-style Hidden game state for my skirmish game, but I'm trying to keep as much open information as possible for ease of play.

An old idea I've had for a while.

Stealth becomes Stealth (1/2/3)

Any unit that targets a unit with the stealth USR must take a LD test minus the level of stealth. If it fails the unit fires at bs 1 (They do NOT snapfire though) against the stealthed unit. Stealth is removed if the unit runs, falls back, or is assaulted. Vehicles count as LD 10.

Just an idea.

Why leadership?

Just guessing, but I'm thinking leadership factors into a mix of attentiveness, discipline (in being drilled to look for "anomalies") and familiarity with such tactics (as in a "veteran" of the battlefield).

What Stormonu said, Higher leadership generally represents training, field experience, and discipline. More experienced soldiers are more likely to spot concealed units.

Vilehydra wrote:
What Stormonu said, Higher leadership generally represents training, field experience, and discipline. More experienced soldiers are more likely to spot concealed units.

But it doesn't account for things like technology. The most experienced and disciplined IG soldiers from a primitive world with little more than their flashlights and t-shirts are going to have no hope of spotting a Tau stealth suit that is literally invisible. Meanwhile even a fresh-out-of-training squad of fire warriors with infrared vision sensors will have no problem spotting the primitive IG attempting to hide.

 Peregrine wrote:

Vilehydra wrote:
What Stormonu said, Higher leadership generally represents training, field experience, and discipline. More experienced soldiers are more likely to spot concealed units.

But it doesn't account for things like technology. The most experienced and disciplined IG soldiers from a primitive world with little more than their flashlights and t-shirts are going to have no hope of spotting a Tau stealth suit that is literally invisible. Meanwhile even a fresh-out-of-training squad of fire warriors with infrared vision sensors will have no problem spotting the primitive IG attempting to hide.

I don't know about that. Some of those primitives are from Hell Worlds with creatures whose natural abilities put even the most powerful tech to shame, and they grew up fighting against them. Their instincts bread against fighting them would stand them in pretty good stead while the inexperienced once may be wondering what the they were looking at and may hesitate.

 Peregrine wrote:

Vilehydra wrote:
What Stormonu said, Higher leadership generally represents training, field experience, and discipline. More experienced soldiers are more likely to spot concealed units.

But it doesn't account for things like technology. The most experienced and disciplined IG soldiers from a primitive world with little more than their flashlights and t-shirts are going to have no hope of spotting a Tau stealth suit that is literally invisible. Meanwhile even a fresh-out-of-training squad of fire warriors with infrared vision sensors will have no problem spotting the primitive IG attempting to hide.

Alongside what christoph said, it can be assumed that unless otherwise specified (with things like Night vision special rules) that most units have around the same base ability to see concealed enemies. Tau firewarriors don't come equipped with Infrareds. If they did in the game sense they would have night vision which iirc they don't (remind me if I'm wrong though). Guardsmen probably come with ACTUAL flashlights attached to their 'flashlights' that will help spot things, including stealth suits. Deamons probably have some sort of soul-sight etc.,

On the receiving end, that's why there is a stealth(3/2/1). Stealth suits would probably be a 3 or a 2. So that all leadership tests for shooting against them are at -3 or -2

Also just on a side note, if preferred enemy ever changed back to be against specific codices/factions. It would be fun to give +1 to LD on test if the preferred enemy is a stealth unit, and a -1 to LD if the Stealthed unit has preferred enemy. That's asking a bit much though.