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Had a bit if a tiff in one of our games. Two units collided, each had an independent character, one was an assault unit the other not. So, challenge issued, both survived first round, character A's unit was wiped, character B's unit had many survivors. No one fled. The rules seem clear on the wounds from the models OUTSIDE the fight carrying over into the challenge in a round in which those extra models fight. They do not seem clear after that.
Obviously, in the round where A had friends about, all of B's friends swung. After that, the only combatant was independent character A, who was in the challenge. Do B's friends still get to swing at Independent character A even though he is in a challenge? The nebulous part comes in on whether B's friends still have targets to swing at. The rules (page 103: Outside forces) clearly say wounds can be allocated to the models in a challenge if all other models have been slain. Got it, good. Here is the issue.
I find no rule saying a model outside of a challenge cannot target a model IN a challenge, only the rule saying wounds can only be allocated once all other enemy models are gone (cited above). My opponent says models in a challenge fight each other, no one else can be involved.
The spirit of a challenge says that should be the case, the rules seem iffy.

Here is my issue. The particular character left alone in the challenge had one of these ridiculous 2+ invuln saves going, and a toughness beyond instant death (uncommon, yes, unheard of? N). He also had almost no chance of killing my character because he lacked a good AP weapon, and generally sucked in HTH. So, according to my opponents interpretation (once all his models besides his character were slain) the rest of my assault force stands around and watches my independent character try to batter through the save, while not attacking. With the math involved (5 attacks, 50% hit chance, 66% wound chance, 16.6% fail chance, 3 wounds...) it would be somewhere around 6 rounds of combat on average before I could kill his character. Very frustrating, when the rest of my unit had 20+ high strength attacks...

(Yes, I know I can refuse his challenge and have whole squad fight...I'm looking for interpretations on challenges and helpers)
(Also, my opponent charged for the very purpose of making me stand around for the whole game. Since he had a 12" move and an additional charge distance, please don't argue the "avoid him" thing. He was in the middle of his battle line, and could charge ANY unit that approached within charge range of any of his units. I play very tactically, and yes, this always works given the rules tactics irritate me. Do not get me started on the shooty, I never move during the game drop pod army...)

Anyway, am I missing a rule that says you can't swing at a character in a challenge (which I thought was the whole point of challenges) or is this a spirit of the rules vs rules as written thing?
I like the challenge idea. I hate the idea that my character may suck in HTH, but he's so hard to kill I can hold your best unit up for the whole game because only one loser gets to swing.
I understand this case above has a lot of uniqueness surrounding how hard one character was to kill, but opinions? I like the idea of a one v one challenge...but it got lame with a dozen super studs standing around watching nothing happen...while their side possibly lost.
OOps, okay, sorry, historian here, we get long winded.

In Unit Types > Characters > Challenges:

Outside Forces
Whilst the challenge is ongoing, other models locked in the combat can only allocate Wounds to the models involved in the challenge after all other enemy models that are locked in that combat (if any) have been removed as casualties, even if the models fighting in a challenge are the closest models.

Your friend is thinking of older rules. Once the attached unit is destroyed, all the wounds from the combat go to the IC.

I think you missed the bottom line. His claim is that in subsequent rounds AFTER all of his allied models have been killed (so he started round of HTH with only his IC), my allied models cannot choose his character as a target of an attack because he is in a challenge. Therefore, no targets for their attacks, no attacks, no wounds to allocate. So I know the rule on allocating (I cited in my post). His argument is on the attacks themselves. The crux is that very rule. It only mentions wounds, it does not say attacks. Is the interpretation that it must include attacks? Or does it really say any wound done by the unit that cannot be placed on another enemy model can now be placed on the character in the challenge? The crux lies in choosing a model for your attacks, this comes steps before allocating wounds. If that step never happens (by his interpretation) there will never be wounds from my unit once we start a round of combat where his unit is no longer there.
I can't find where it talks about models in a challenge being chosen as the target for attacks by other models. So, no rule saying you can't means you can? So...
Rules say the wounds go to the IC, Yes, agreed clear. Does this mean in round two my models who no longer have an opponent get to attack his IC in the challenge? This makes sense in the targeting rules (base contact, X inches etc) And then the rule on last man standing and wounds applies?
Seems like my models are interfering in a challenge. Interpretation...they are allowed but only after enemy is down to last man standing?
(which brings up issues...if I have models whose only viable target is his IC...their attacks must be allocated to him (wounds are allocated to closest model first etc...) this could happen in the first round of a combat...

You can not attack directly into the challenge no. If during and assault phase one side wipes out the squad they are fighting any left over wounds are allocated into the challenge (rather than being lost) but after that the units outside the challenge no longer have a valid target to attack and therefore may not generate any wounds to allocate.

So tl:dr, yes after one side kills the other sides minions they become glorified Cheer Leaders until a unit in the challenge dies.

 Chapter Master Angelos wrote:
You can not attack directly into the challenge no. If during and assault phase one side wipes out the squad they are fighting any left over wounds are allocated into the challenge (rather than being lost) but after that the units outside the challenge no longer have a valid target to attack and therefore may not generate any wounds to allocate.

So tl:dr, yes after one side kills the other sides minions they become glorified Cheer Leaders until a unit in the challenge dies.

That was last edition

Reads the same way to me in the rulebook I have on hand.

Yes... You can attack into a challenge once all other models are dead. This is pretty clearly stated in the rules. Your friend is thinking of older rules.

Once all models in one unit are gone other than the independent character, the other unit can freely attack the independent character regardless of whether he is in a challenge or not. However, there is still a reason for that lone independent character to issue a challenge, and that reason is to kill the other character in the opposing unit first, before his squad mates.

edwardmyst wrote:
I think you missed the bottom line. His claim is that in subsequent rounds AFTER all of his allied models have been killed (so he started round of HTH with only his IC), my allied models cannot choose his character as a target of an attack because he is in a challenge. Therefore, no targets for their attacks, no attacks, no wounds to allocate. So I know the rule on allocating (I cited in my post). His argument is on the attacks themselves. The crux is that very rule. It only mentions wounds, it does not say attacks. Is the interpretation that it must include attacks? Or does it really say any wound done by the unit that cannot be placed on another enemy model can now be placed on the character in the challenge? The crux lies in choosing a model for your attacks, this comes steps before allocating wounds. If that step never happens (by his interpretation) there will never be wounds from my unit once we start a round of combat where his unit is no longer there.
I can't find where it talks about models in a challenge being chosen as the target for attacks by other models. So, no rule saying you can't means you can? So...
Rules say the wounds go to the IC, Yes, agreed clear. Does this mean in round two my models who no longer have an opponent get to attack his IC in the challenge? This makes sense in the targeting rules (base contact, X inches etc) And then the rule on last man standing and wounds applies?
Seems like my models are interfering in a challenge. Interpretation...they are allowed but only after enemy is down to last man standing?
(which brings up issues...if I have models whose only viable target is his IC...their attacks must be allocated to him (wounds are allocated to closest model first etc...) this could happen in the first round of a combat...

Show the rule that they cannot target the IC. As far as challenges go, the only restriction on the attacking unit is the Allocation restriction, which you cited.

And yes, you could very easily have wounds from the unit go into the challenge in the first round of combat, and could easily kill the model before his challenge fight is resolved.

The people saying that the unit may attack into the challenge are correct, but none of them have given any rules for why, they're just saying "it's clearly in the rules". So let me break this down for people to see.

- In a normal combat phase, every model in your unit rolls to hit against the average WS in the enemy's entire unit, and later allocates wounds to the closest enemy model first, and so on. (page 49 under "Units With Multiple Weapon Skills"). That's important - attacks are made against the unit as a whole.
- When a challenge happens it does not remove the characters from this combat or the unit. Instead of rolling against the average WS of the enemy unit, the characters involved in the challenge now roll against each other's WS, and may only allocate wounds to each other. Forces outside the challenge attack as normal (against the entire unit) but may only allocate wounds to other forces outside the challenge until everyone else has been slain. (p102/103, Fighting a Challenge & Outside Forces)
- Note how a challenge only modifies How the characters roll to hit, where they place wounds, and where outside forces can place wounds but NOT how they roll to hit. They still roll To Hit against the entire enemy unit's average WS, including the enemy character who is in a challenge. Nothing in the rules for fighting challenges removes the characters from their units for the purposes of making "to hit" rolls.

Hope this helps clear it up.

Thanks guys. This does clear it up, and actually my argument in the tiff was pretty much what angelos and Bojazz cited on. I appreciate the time Dakka!