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Forgo all you melee attacks in CC to use your Pistol as a CCW with Assault 1, Hand Flamers will be modified, and No modifiers work with Pistols.
Melta Pistol = Assault 1, S8 Ap1
Plasma Pistol = Assault 1, S7 Ap2, Gets Hot
Hand Flamer = D3, S3 Ap6, Take Initiative test, if fail Randomly allocate a S3 ap6 hit on your unit in combat
Etc..

That would make pistols potentially worth their price!

Would you see "Gunslinger" translating to CC as well? i.e. would you get 2 shots with pistols if you had 2?

 Ambience 327 wrote:
Would you see "Gunslinger" translating to CC as well? i.e. would you get 2 shots with pistols if you had 2?

Sure why not, thats how cypher works currently.

MCs take multiple wounds from anti-tank weapons.

I like the idea of certain ranged weapons having the "Point Blank" special rule which lets them fire from a close combat, against the same engaged unit.

All Pistols would have it by default, but so would certain things like Pulse Breachers, Rods of Covenant, etc.

Pretty much every pistol in 40k can also use a base reduction on price by 5 points or so. 10 points for a Plasma Pistol is more a "hrm, ok why not" versus "what are you doing, mate?"

Martel732 wrote:
MCs take multiple wounds from anti-tank weapons.

I'll second this, provided sufficiently rigorous definitions for "anti-tank". Plasma guns should not be dealing 2 wounds, generally, nor should autocannon, probably, but lascannons, multi-meltas, brightlances, railguns and heavy venom cannons sure as hezmana should.

Krak missiles. For heaven's sakes, krak missiles.

There's no way this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-114_Hellfire

does one wound.

For sure! Heck, even if we assume a krak missile is more like a Javelin or an AT-4, that's still more than one wound.

Also, how about Pistols use their normal BS for overwatch fire? Makes sense as pistols are designed for combat at that short range.

 Amishprn86 wrote:
Forgo all you melee attacks in CC to use your Pistol as a CCW with Assault 1, Hand Flamers will be modified, and No modifiers work with Pistols.
Melta Pistol = Assault 1, S8 Ap1
Plasma Pistol = Assault 1, S7 Ap2, Gets Hot
Hand Flamer = D3, S3 Ap6, Take Initiative test, if fail Randomly allocate a S3 ap6 hit on your unit in combat
Etc..

I know I"m kind of in the minority here, but I never really shared the popular dislike for pistol pricing. Sure, they don't shoot as well as their gun counterparts, but they also grant an extra attack in melee. Which isn't a huge bonus, but it's probably a 5ish point bonus. Looking at some of the common pistols:

Inferno/Fusion pistols: You lose a little range over a meltagun/fusion gun, but it's essentially filling the same role. Get close, blow up tanks or hurt MCs/TEQs. Meltas are best used coming out of a drop pod, and infernos are the same way.
Plasma Pistol: You lose maximum range and only ever fire 1 shot. This means it's more of a close-range weapon than its big brother, but fewer shots means getting hot less often. Not rapid-fire and therefore allows you to charge after firing.
Hand Flamer: Very similar to a normal flamer. You basically take a -1 to wound, but you get that extra melee attack. Assuming you have something like a power sword, you're trading one or two AP5 (flamer) wounds for an extra shot at dealing an AP3 wound in melee.

Honestly, those trade-offs all sound pretty okay to me. I could maybe see a 5 point price decrease for some of those, but nothing dramatic. And yes, a commissar will get a lot less out of an extra melee attack than a chapter master, but that's more a problem with IG gear pricing than with pistols specifically.

Now, having said all that, I'd be fine with the rules you've proposed! I'd suggest that you up the cost of pistols somewhat, however. An inferno pistol, for instance, is now almost as good as a power fist (in some ways better!) than a power fist in the hands of a non-veteran marine sergeant. A plasma pistol or inferno pistol will insta-gib T3 characters in a challenge. Eldar storm guardians would basically gain rending. That sort of thing. I feel that those kinds of changes in power warrant a price increase. After all, a one or two attack model can basically forego grabbing a melee weapon with this system and simply pick up the right pistol instead.
The idea of my plasma pistol sergeant blasting guys in melee is awesome though.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Valkyrie wrote:
Also, how about Pistols use their normal BS for overwatch fire? Makes sense as pistols are designed for combat at that short range.

That could be interesting!

Targeting only MC to take multiple wounds from any source is silly. If it would deal multiple wounds to a MC why wouldn't it deal multiple wounds to everything else? You think a Librarian would hold up better then a Hive Tyrant to an anti tank weapon? Ridiculous.

Get rid of the crap tons of different resolution methods in 8th.

Removal instant death and adding a damage stat to all weapons instead would be a good way to go about it.

Most weapons would of course only do 1 but some of the more powerful anti tank weapons would do 2 or even 3.

Destroyer weapons could then just be made str 10 AP1 fleshbane, armourbane and deal D3+1 damage or something like that, removing the need for a table and even the rule itself.

Edit: Ignore. mixed up my threads.

@MagicJuggler: Well said.

@Wyldhunt: I dont think its a power creep at all, its 1 attack. a PF on the charge can have 2-3 attacks (depending on who). Its again 1 hit, Grenades are 1 hit also. You would either get your +1 attack for CC for 1 attack with its profile. Pistols are costly as is and most armirs (Other than SM) dont use them anyways b.c most players/armies its better to either get a Better CCW and be a CC unit, or get a better Shooting weapon and be a Shooting unit.

CSM and SM are basically the ones that would get a Metla/Plasma pistol b.c for them that +1 attack would be worth it.

Then look at Eldar, DE, Harlequins, Tau, (daemon and nids dont have these styles of weapons) IG etc... they would rather spend the same point to get the bonus range or power that weapon has to offer, Or the same points to get a better weapon with more attacks.

It gives a different trade off and another option, yes options can make some "lists" more powerful in some way, but it would also hurt them in different way;

Examples:
Melta Pistol range is extremely small now for AT
Plasma Pistols doen't have Rapid Fire
Range is shorter over all.

This would give DE and It would Help BA also, SM would have a new style of gameplay, it would even help SOB.

Yes there are things to look out for, But if you make a New rule like MagicJuggler suggested "Point Blank" and in the BRB just list the Pistols and some Xeno's weapon that get it, GW could choose to not give it to OP pistols.


I see it having more Good than Harm, every rule change or addition has Pros and Cons, just b.c it has a con or two, doesn't mean it isnt good, fun or fluffy.

I have always wondered why all the models of a unit had to fire at the same target.

For some units, it doesn't matter much, as they have a homogeneous weapon mix and ICs really don't matter much (if at all), like Tyranids or Orks. However for Imperium Squads who include Anti-Tank Weapons in Squads full of anti-personnel Weapons or those who have Characters with some exotic gear like the Eldar or Necrons, it makes a huge impact.

Sure, it makes the game go a little faster, but it is still annoying.

All of a units special rules on the data sheet for it. If someone wants to know what a unit does, he should that've to open his codex to look it up, then open the rule book to look up the special rules.

It's one of those things AOS did well right off the bat.

 Crazyterran wrote:
All of a units special rules on the data sheet for it. If someone wants to know what a unit does, he should that've to open his codex to look it up, then open the rule book to look up the special rules.

It's one of those things AOS did well right off the bat.

It also minimizes a lot of Special Rules to save on formatting. Most of those AOS units have a Special Rule set for Wargear, one for Characters, and one or two Special Rules inherent to the unit.

 Charistoph wrote:
I have always wondered why all the models of a unit had to fire at the same target.

For some units, it doesn't matter much, as they have a homogeneous weapon mix and ICs really don't matter much (if at all), like Tyranids or Orks. However for Imperium Squads who include Anti-Tank Weapons in Squads full of anti-personnel Weapons or those who have Characters with some exotic gear like the Eldar or Necrons, it makes a huge impact.

Sure, it makes the game go a little faster, but it is still annoying.

Quite agree. The thing is, the standard load-outs for, say, Guard squads or Tactical Marines date back to 1st edition, when you didn't have to all fire at the same thing. I'd suggest making it so that all weapons that are the same in a unit (e.g. Bolters) have to shoot at the same thing, but heavy/specials can fire at something else. Given that in 7th, you roll for each weapon in a unit separately, I can't see this slowing things down too much.

Btw, I tried and failed to use multi-quote but I like the OP's idea and the one about pistols getting full-BS over watch, too!

 Lance845 wrote:
Targeting only MC to take multiple wounds from any source is silly. If it would deal multiple wounds to a MC why wouldn't it deal multiple wounds to everything else? You think a Librarian would hold up better then a Hive Tyrant to an anti tank weapon? Ridiculous.

Get rid of the crap tons of different resolution methods in 8th.

Most ICs are already getting doubled out by anti-tank weapons.

So suggestion to this, tell me what you guys think, give me your feed back.

What if we literally lifted cyphers rules and used them for models that use a pistol and a melee weapon.

If a model is equipped with a pistol, they may allocate half their attacks, rounding down, with their pistol at their melee weapon initiative.

If a model is equipped with two pistols, half their attacks rounding down are made with the the pistol with the lower AP, the other half are allocated to the other pistol, and strike at the models initiative.

next part honestly might not even be a thing since its more rules, and will just get complicated so we can say if you have a template pistol, to bad cant use it because you might light your own people on fire.

If the model is equipped with a template type pistol, the model gives up half its attacks rounding up to inflict D3 wounds with the template pistols profile. (Personally not a fan, but added it in for consistency.)

Multiple shot pistols only fire one shot per attack with it (Salvo type pistols only get 1)

It would actually make pistols worth half a damn in the game again, would be pretty fluffy, i like this idea, might give it again in a kill team to get a feel for it.

Nazrak wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:
I have always wondered why all the models of a unit had to fire at the same target.

For some units, it doesn't matter much, as they have a homogeneous weapon mix and ICs really don't matter much (if at all), like Tyranids or Orks. However for Imperium Squads who include Anti-Tank Weapons in Squads full of anti-personnel Weapons or those who have Characters with some exotic gear like the Eldar or Necrons, it makes a huge impact.

Sure, it makes the game go a little faster, but it is still annoying.

Quite agree. The thing is, the standard load-outs for, say, Guard squads or Tactical Marines date back to 1st edition, when you didn't have to all fire at the same thing. I'd suggest making it so that all weapons that are the same in a unit (e.g. Bolters) have to shoot at the same thing, but heavy/specials can fire at something else. Given that in 7th, you roll for each weapon in a unit separately, I can't see this slowing things down too much.

I'm cool with that, provided that we are still using the 7th Edition Shooting Sequence. I like it for some reasons, and hate it for others (most of the hate is how none of the other shooting rules seemed to have recognized that this change happened, such as Power of the Machine Spirit and Super-Heavy Targeting).