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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/10/29 18:24:40
Subject: Slaanesh CSM
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Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch
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Roknar wrote:Thanks for correcting me on that, but each roll is still a 1 in 6 chance. You do get an increasing chance of rerolls, but you're not more likely to get any particular power per roll.
yes but the ultimate result is still a limitation in what you can actually roll.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/10/29 18:24:47
Subject: Slaanesh CSM
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Auspicious Daemonic Herald
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Yeah thats how the probability of each event changes, but you don't just add them together to calculate the the probability of the desired outcome. You multiply the chance of failure for each attempt and subtract it from 1. So the math should actually look like 1 - [5/6 * 4/5 * 3/4] which equals 0.5. and on the slaanesh table its 1- [2/3 * 1/2] which equals .66
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/29 18:25:46
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/10/29 18:36:30
Subject: Slaanesh CSM
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Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought
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They're actually independant events.
It's 1d6 for the first so 1/6. The next roll is 1d6 and if happen to roll the same result as before, you make another separate 1d6 roll which again has another 1/6 chance of getting any power. The previous roll is discounted and has no effect on any followup rolls. Same for the third roll.
So it should be 1/6 + 1/+6 + 1/6 which gives us a 3/6 chance to get the power you want. But I flunked probability hard so I'm not gonna argue lol
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/29 18:39:55
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/10/29 18:41:09
Subject: Slaanesh CSM
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Auspicious Daemonic Herald
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Roknar wrote:They're actually independant events. It's 1d6 for the first so 1/6. The next roll is 1d6 and if happen to roll the same result as before, you make another separate 1d6 roll which again has another 1/6 chance of getting any power. The previous roll is discounted and has no effect on any followup rolls. Same for the third roll. So it should be 1/6 + 1/+6 + 1/6 which gives us a 3/6 chance to get the power you want.
They aren't independent because you get a differnce chance for each attempt because of preceeding results. But that is the reason why you can just add them together because you are functionally taking 3 results out of 6 possibilities since you can't get duplicates
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/29 18:41:29
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/10/29 18:51:30
Subject: Slaanesh CSM
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Rampaging Khorne Dreadnought
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Like I said, I suck at probability lol, but since you're rolling a dice, you actually still have the same chance. Say you rolled a 1 for the first power. The second roll can still be a 1, which causes you to roll again, which could could be another 1. Each roll still has 6 different possible results.
Least that's how I understand it.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/10/29 18:53:51
Subject: Slaanesh CSM
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Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch
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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:That's four shots on a BS4 model. At S4. Pass.
Also you're basically admitting that the Telepathy table is just that much better with that second statement. Nobody cares if you're wanting to be a special snowflake and not use it out of principle. It is part of the game.
Yes and blind and pinning and concussive. Pinning and Concussive both require wounds, but blind works on hit. Are there any armies out there with low I that might lose a lot of power if you were able to consistently blind their units?
Sure, if you're only concerned about winning and don't care about the experience of the person on the other side of the table. In a tournament you probably can say its better. If your looking to have a fun experience, than most people would agree that invisibility on units is not the best way to go about it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Roknar wrote:Like I said, I suck at probability lol, but since you're rolling a dice, you actually still have the same chance. Say you rolled a 1 for the first power. The second roll can still be a 1, which causes you to roll again, which could could be another 1. Each roll still has 6 different possible results.
Least that's how I understand it.
Oh I must understood what you said previously, yes you still still have the same chance of each possible roll, but the overall result is still same is what I am saying.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CrownAxe wrote:Yeah that's how the probability of each event changes, but you don't just add them together to calculate the the probability of the desired outcome. You multiply the chance of failure for each attempt and subtract it from 1. So the math should actually look like
1 - [5/6 * 4/5 * 3/4] which equals 0.5.
and on the slaanesh table its
1- [2/3 * 1/2] which equals .66
Okay the problem with that equation is that its for independent samples NOT dependent samples.
Dependent samples are cumulative, independent samples are multiplicative.
Here's an example imagine you have 6 marbles in a bag each a different color. Now, let's say you want purple, if you were to pull 3 marbles out of that bag at once you would get the equation you have, but if you were to pull one out at a time, putting the marbles back in the bag then you get and picking again if you get a repeat then you have 1/6+1/5+1/4
So with rerolls where the result does not depend on the previous roll (i.e. independent samples) you get a multiplicative roll, this is why rerolls on terminators is so hard to deal with because its (1/6*1/6) it takes 36 wounds on average to take out 1 model with a 2+ save.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/10/29 19:52:55
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/10/29 20:41:07
Subject: Slaanesh CSM
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:Slayer-Fan123 wrote:That's four shots on a BS4 model. At S4. Pass.
Also you're basically admitting that the Telepathy table is just that much better with that second statement. Nobody cares if you're wanting to be a special snowflake and not use it out of principle. It is part of the game.
Yes and blind and pinning and concussive. Pinning and Concussive both require wounds, but blind works on hit. Are there any armies out there with low I that might lose a lot of power if you were able to consistently blind their units?
Sure, if you're only concerned about winning and don't care about the experience of the person on the other side of the table. In a tournament you probably can say its better. If your looking to have a fun experience, than most people would agree that invisibility on units is not the best way to go about it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Roknar wrote:Like I said, I suck at probability lol, but since you're rolling a dice, you actually still have the same chance. Say you rolled a 1 for the first power. The second roll can still be a 1, which causes you to roll again, which could could be another 1. Each roll still has 6 different possible results.
Least that's how I understand it.
Oh I must understood what you said previously, yes you still still have the same chance of each possible roll, but the overall result is still same is what I am saying.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
CrownAxe wrote:Yeah that's how the probability of each event changes, but you don't just add them together to calculate the the probability of the desired outcome. You multiply the chance of failure for each attempt and subtract it from 1. So the math should actually look like
1 - [5/6 * 4/5 * 3/4] which equals 0.5.
and on the slaanesh table its
1- [2/3 * 1/2] which equals .66
Okay the problem with that equation is that its for independent samples NOT dependent samples.
Dependent samples are cumulative, independent samples are multiplicative.
Here's an example imagine you have 6 marbles in a bag each a different color. Now, let's say you want purple, if you were to pull 3 marbles out of that bag at once you would get the equation you have, but if you were to pull one out at a time, putting the marbles back in the bag then you get and picking again if you get a repeat then you have 1/6+1/5+1/4
So with rerolls where the result does not depend on the previous roll (i.e. independent samples) you get a multiplicative roll, this is why rerolls on terminators is so hard to deal with because its (1/6*1/6) it takes 36 wounds on average to take out 1 model with a 2+ save.
You're requiring wounds with a BS4 platform at S4. It becomes unlikely at that point.
And what's worth blinding anyway that won't find a way to not care about it? Necrons don't need their shooting and just charge and tarpit forever. Tau just use Markerlights on everything or have immunity to it. Invisibility is fished for so you'll likely never create a wound on a T5 2+ model.
It sucks when you try to apply it. Just accept that fact. I don't give a crap if you think the Slaanesh table is more "fun". This isn't the fun subforum, this is the Tactics subforum, and that way you're thinking is suboptimal at BEST.
Of course you were the one defending Rubric Marines so what do I trust you to know?
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CaptainStabby wrote:If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote:BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote:Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote:ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/10/29 20:57:50
Subject: Slaanesh CSM
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Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch
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What was that forum about? What was the topic title. Was it maybe what can CSMs do? well they CAN do that. Now if he made the title Probable Implementations of the CSM army, then I would have never put that.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/10/29 21:09:27
Subject: Slaanesh CSM
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Auspicious Daemonic Herald
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Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
CrownAxe wrote:Yeah that's how the probability of each event changes, but you don't just add them together to calculate the the probability of the desired outcome. You multiply the chance of failure for each attempt and subtract it from 1. So the math should actually look like
1 - [5/6 * 4/5 * 3/4] which equals 0.5.
and on the slaanesh table its
1- [2/3 * 1/2] which equals .66
Okay the problem with that equation is that its for independent samples NOT dependent samples.
Dependent samples are cumulative, independent samples are multiplicative.
Here's an example imagine you have 6 marbles in a bag each a different color. Now, let's say you want purple, if you were to pull 3 marbles out of that bag at once you would get the equation you have, but if you were to pull one out at a time, putting the marbles back in the bag then you get and picking again if you get a repeat then you have 1/6+1/5+1/4
So with rerolls where the result does not depend on the previous roll (i.e. independent samples) you get a multiplicative roll, this is why rerolls on terminators is so hard to deal with because its (1/6*1/6) it takes 36 wounds on average to take out 1 model with a 2+ save.
The formula is for both independent AND dependant variable probability calculation.
In your marble example when you a taking marbles and putting them back the formula is 1 - [5/6*5/6*5/6] = 0.421
You seriously do not know what you are talking about
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/10/29 22:29:28
Subject: Slaanesh CSM
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Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch
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CrownAxe wrote: Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
CrownAxe wrote:Yeah that's how the probability of each event changes, but you don't just add them together to calculate the the probability of the desired outcome. You multiply the chance of failure for each attempt and subtract it from 1. So the math should actually look like
1 - [5/6 * 4/5 * 3/4] which equals 0.5.
and on the slaanesh table its
1- [2/3 * 1/2] which equals .66
Okay the problem with that equation is that its for independent samples NOT dependent samples.
Dependent samples are cumulative, independent samples are multiplicative.
Here's an example imagine you have 6 marbles in a bag each a different color. Now, let's say you want purple, if you were to pull 3 marbles out of that bag at once you would get the equation you have, but if you were to pull one out at a time, putting the marbles back in the bag then you get and picking again if you get a repeat then you have 1/6+1/5+1/4
So with rerolls where the result does not depend on the previous roll (i.e. independent samples) you get a multiplicative roll, this is why rerolls on terminators is so hard to deal with because its (1/6*1/6) it takes 36 wounds on average to take out 1 model with a 2+ save.
The formula is for both independent AND dependant variable probability calculation.
In your marble example when you a taking marbles and putting them back the formula is 1 - [5/6*5/6*5/6] = 0.421
You seriously do not know what you are talking about
How does that equation account for picking repeats?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/10/29 23:36:05
Subject: Slaanesh CSM
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Auspicious Daemonic Herald
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Care to elaborate on your question please?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/10/30 02:32:18
Subject: Re:Slaanesh CSM
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Dakka Veteran
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JFC guys settle down, the slanneshi table of powers really aren't worth fighting over. A more important topic in line with the thread is how we deal with the loyalist scum's deathstars. Personally I do one of two things:
- Roll a sorcerer on sinistrum, this either gives my psyker the ability to kill other psykers without re-rolls while also hampering their ability to cast and or reducing their invuln saves so that they become managable.
-Ally in the Masque of slannesh, now the masque is an underused gem for both daemons and CSM, I have had whole games won by her and her slanneshi bullsh*it. One game in particular I will always remember is against tzeench daemons with Slannishi CSM. This guy had kitted out his daemon prince with some of the most crazy stats I have seen on a model, 2+ rerollable invuln, iron arm for that STR 9 attacks and 8 toughness, and a 4+ feel no pain, as if he werent statistically unkillable the first time around. For all intents and purposes the is invincible. He runs straight towards my front lines, Im terrified and realise I have to pull some slanneshi magic out of a hat if Im not going to lose this game, I realise my only saving grace is the masque of slannesh, so I get her into position, I make sure everything is 24 inches from the dp so that he cant charge, once he gets close enough I move the masque in, use the dance of caging, run back into cover, and repeat for the rest of the turns of the game. This invincible prince sits there dancing the whole game unable to move while my units of CSM move around him and kill the rest of his army. Was a great triumph for slannesh that day. And made me want to take the masque in every list.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/30 04:05:49
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/10/30 04:05:12
Subject: Slaanesh CSM
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Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch
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I was thinking of disjointed events for some reason. Sorry about that.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/30 04:13:57
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/01 03:05:44
Subject: Slaanesh CSM
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Furious Raptor
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ITT: fights over easily google-able probability math. Lovely.
So, telepathy is objectively more useful. If you choose not to use it, that's your call, but it certainly doesn't change the objective application of statistics. It's clear you folks aren't really into probabilistic math, so rather than get dragged into doing what amounts to HW, i'm just gonna say that the powers for telepathy will be objectively more likely to be more effective. Adding a single Str to a shooting attack than only troops or sonic dreads can have is not significantly better then the telepathy options unless you build an entire list around the concept. Comparative to a list with less sonic specialization and telepathy rolls, this will not be a competitive list. Given that Noise Marines tend to be in cover, and cost a bunch of points for power armor saves, even Shrouded by itself is arguably equally effective for any sonic blasters, where an additional round of shooting may be worth as much or more than a str 5 salvo. Add in Shreik being a pure upgrade over Slaanesh-As-Jubilee-From_Xmen, and Invis being the hands down most effective power we get, and it's not debatable which is better.
Conclusion: You may like or the other better, but barring an intentionally handicapped list specifically to boost the effectiveness of a single power, Telepathy is more powerful and generically useful. Take Slaanesh powers if you want to pay more points for the base sorcerer, or to unlock the steed, neither of which tactically justifiable given the access to bikes and the Chaos Lord also likely having MoS to access NM troops in the first place.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/01 21:19:27
Subject: Slaanesh CSM
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Good lord did this thread head the wrong direction lol. So I think it is been proven that the concept is likely to fail competitively but could remain fluffy-acceptable.
I am just struggling making a slaanesh fluffy list competitive. :/
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/02 16:10:15
Subject: Slaanesh CSM
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Haemonculi Flesh Apprentice
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Here maybe I can help, I am currently painting an army for a hobby focused event so take that with a grain of salt, but I like to win so despite themes my armies are never garbage.
I take a
chaos lord with MOS burning brand and lightning claw
Level 3 sorceror on a bike with spell familiar
4 units of 5 noise marines with blast masters in rhinos with dirge casters
Mauler fiend
2 deimos pattern vindicator laser destroyers
Keeper of secrets level 3 with greater reward (grimoire for mauler fiend)
2 units of 10 demonettes
1750
The list actually does really well against a wide range of enemies, people underestimate blast masters a lot. 48" range s8 ignores cover PINNING, always remember that damned pinning. Stack it with terrify and make their big bad unit take 4 pinning checks in a row and laugh as they hit the dirt.
I generally always roll for telepathy, but I don't own the new powers. Usually between the 6 rolls I get shrouded and or invisibility. A grimed mauler always ends up taking most of my opponents focus while the deimos laser destroyers can literally mulch an imperial knight in one turn fairly easily.
48" range twin linked strength 9 ap1 ordinance will kill anything with armor, especially when the two tanks dump out 6 shots a turn. Just put on on each flank and wrap them with demonettes depending on your opponents mobility. Oh and blast masters are not that bad at stripping the last HP. They almost guarantee a hit on tanks due to bs 4 blast and st8 isn't crap especially when you realize it ignores cover. Against things like tau tanks with D-pods all you need to do is shake it for a turn to ruin their day.
That said, I like my 1850 version better since I basically get MB's on the characters and one more unit of demonettes, Ultimately I probably should take heralds over the keeper but I converted my keeper from 5 other models parts and I like the idea, that said heralds in a large seeker bomb would make the list MUCH better. My main issues playing the list about 10 games come from random maelstrom pulls. I can't do much against super fast armies with obsec when I pull 3 cards located in my opponents table half :/ That said I find that to be more of a problem stemming from maelstrom games then the army. Despite trailing on points I usually tear their army to shreds which is still fun as hell.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/02 16:14:19
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/02 19:37:23
Subject: Slaanesh CSM
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Do you run the noise marines as just basic minus the blastmasters?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/02 19:37:52
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/03 19:31:15
Subject: Slaanesh CSM
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Haemonculi Flesh Apprentice
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Yes, they simply fire shots from the hatch while obsecing objectives, the tanks provide dirge casters to prevent overwatch for things like the demonettes which is why I would rather have more of them. Don't forget the demons are obsec as well, the list can move quite quick over short distances with the rhinos and the fleet/+3 running demons and aside from the sorceror the entire list is immune to moral. I've hard countered certain lists that have key bike units like gore packs and command squads but have had trouble against full out bike armies still mainly because of hit and run and rolling terribly on rends. I think dropping the KOS and the soceror for a maxed out seeker star with as many heralds as I can grab would make the list much stronger, I can get similar odds at invivibilty while adding a tom of mobility and way better chances at rending things to death.
EDIT
The other option I have considered is taking doom sirens and MB's and making the whole list a mobile troop shredder, trouble is against armor and fast units it is incredibly hard to get a rhino within template range with only a 6" move (if you move 12" you must snap fire). I also at some point would like to try a raptor terror whtchamacallit formation. The -2 LD and assault after DS synergizes well with the pinning of the blastmasters and you can pack several specials for taking out heavy armor that is dug in.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/03 19:35:49
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/04 20:53:28
Subject: Slaanesh CSM
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Regular Dakkanaut
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How do the demons have objec secured?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/04 22:06:31
Subject: Slaanesh CSM
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Auspicious Daemonic Herald
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/04 22:07:21
Subject: Slaanesh CSM
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Regular Dakkanaut
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You're taking them as an allied detachment, right?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/04 22:08:14
Subject: Slaanesh CSM
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Auspicious Daemonic Herald
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Yes, which give ObSec to troops
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/05 03:09:41
Subject: Slaanesh CSM
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Haemonculi Flesh Apprentice
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I was actually taking them as another CAD originally when I had 3 units of troops, but as it stands they could be either an allied detachment or another CAD, either way as CrownAxe said, they would be OBSEC.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/08 15:24:32
Subject: Slaanesh CSM
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I forget CADs give obsec, its been awhile since i ran one. Normally i stick to formations. Automatically Appended Next Post: The raptor talon formation was fun, i feel like running 3 units though may not be enough for the -2l. I failed my reserve rolls and couldnt get two units in CC to get the modifier.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/08 15:29:31
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/12 12:42:07
Subject: Slaanesh CSM
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Haemonculi Flesh Apprentice
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WikkedTiki wrote:I forget CADs give obsec, its been awhile since i ran one. Normally i stick to formations.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
The raptor talon formation was fun, i feel like running 3 units though may not be enough for the -2l. I failed my reserve rolls and couldnt get two units in CC to get the modifier.
Is it only 3 units? or was that the minimum? Maybe run a bastion with a coms relay attached for the reroll, I definitely think redserves manipulation is a requirement for that formation.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/14 19:58:37
Subject: Slaanesh CSM
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Red Corsair wrote:WikkedTiki wrote:I forget CADs give obsec, its been awhile since i ran one. Normally i stick to formations.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
The raptor talon formation was fun, i feel like running 3 units though may not be enough for the -2l. I failed my reserve rolls and couldnt get two units in CC to get the modifier.
Is it only 3 units? or was that the minimum? Maybe run a bastion with a coms relay attached for the reroll, I definitely think redserves manipulation is a requirement for that formation.
3-5 units i believe, i just got another unit or raptors cause i think 4 units would be ideal. There is definitely a need for reserve manipulation but i'm new to CSM. I also feel that having the slaanesh mark might be somewhat beneficial to go first, but may be a waste of points like it always has been.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/14 23:28:06
Subject: Slaanesh CSM
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Screeching Screamer of Tzeentch
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I'm looking at getting a few Noise Marines myself, do they work OK in small units (thinking a squad of 5 so I can use the Forge World models)?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/11/15 20:14:36
Subject: Slaanesh CSM
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Regular Dakkanaut
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SpaceOstrich wrote:I'm looking at getting a few Noise Marines myself, do they work OK in small units (thinking a squad of 5 so I can use the Forge World models)?
Depends who you are going against, but i love mine. I use mine in smaller groups (6 or 7). Doom sirens are great. I havent ran them a ton yet but i was using lucius for gaks and grins but the double doom siren is hella fun. The blastmaster is wonderful but i dont really like spending the points on the smaller sonic guns.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/04 16:10:05
Subject: Slaanesh CSM
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Dakka Veteran
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cod3x wrote:So, basic probibility will tell you exactly how reliable DS is. I prefer that over anecdotal luck stories. That said, with banners and multiple redundant cheap options (raptors, termies, oblits), you have some good options for AV hunting with just DS. For 300 pts if you wanna DS something drop 3 helbrutes. Armor is an option; I'd say give one or more Heldrakes the Cannon, and consider a forgefiend BL formation or an Allied Soul Grinder, LOW Knight, or just some cheap as chips laspreds. They work man. Don't be scared of simple fix it options, it's 135 or so pts.
Another option is Daemon Princes. Flying, psychic levels, access to CSM and Daemon weapon list depending on how you decide to bring em. Iron Arm + Lash of Despair, Warp Speed + Daemon Weapon, Slaanesh can put out some table flipping levels of hurt with these guys and they are just as durable as any other alignment, not something the purple folk get much. Bonus point, they can run crazy fast, so feel free to lose the wings and run through cover if you are in a point crunch. Most games I can manage to find something within fleet running range +3'' if it comes to it.
Lastly, no rock and roll rape parade is complete without bikers. A min squad with meltas can turbo boost and reliably position and a large pack with the FnP banner and a chaos lord is not technically a deathstar, but does require a significant investment of points and turns to bring down.
How do you deep strike hellbrutes? They're not deamons, jet packs, or terminators?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/12/04 17:02:35
Subject: Slaanesh CSM
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Auspicious Daemonic Herald
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Danny slag wrote:cod3x wrote:So, basic probibility will tell you exactly how reliable DS is. I prefer that over anecdotal luck stories. That said, with banners and multiple redundant cheap options (raptors, termies, oblits), you have some good options for AV hunting with just DS. For 300 pts if you wanna DS something drop 3 helbrutes. Armor is an option; I'd say give one or more Heldrakes the Cannon, and consider a forgefiend BL formation or an Allied Soul Grinder, LOW Knight, or just some cheap as chips laspreds. They work man. Don't be scared of simple fix it options, it's 135 or so pts.
Another option is Daemon Princes. Flying, psychic levels, access to CSM and Daemon weapon list depending on how you decide to bring em. Iron Arm + Lash of Despair, Warp Speed + Daemon Weapon, Slaanesh can put out some table flipping levels of hurt with these guys and they are just as durable as any other alignment, not something the purple folk get much. Bonus point, they can run crazy fast, so feel free to lose the wings and run through cover if you are in a point crunch. Most games I can manage to find something within fleet running range +3'' if it comes to it.
Lastly, no rock and roll rape parade is complete without bikers. A min squad with meltas can turbo boost and reliably position and a large pack with the FnP banner and a chaos lord is not technically a deathstar, but does require a significant investment of points and turns to bring down.
How do you deep strike hellbrutes? They're not deamons, jet packs, or terminators?
Mayhem Pack formation
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