Switch Theme:

Proposed changes to bring many armies up to the power level - some codex specific changes as well.  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Shas'la with Pulse Carbine




All statlines cannot have a base value lower than 3 for any given stat - aside from armor and Wounds. 3 is the standard humanoid average for a stat. - Of course all units can have their stats altered via abilities etc... Cannot be lower than 1 or higher than 10.

All units auto run their full movement distance - but if they run through terrain they suffer - 1 WS, - 1 I in the ensuing combat phase - regardless of if they have some assault grenade mechanic or ability to attack at initiative - move through cover overrides this.
All units move their full distance when moving through terrain, but they suffer -1 to BS in the ensuing psychic and shooting phases - move through cover overrides this.

Invulnerable saves cannot be reduced to 2+. 3+ is the best that invulnerable save can be regardless of powers or abilities

Mastery Levels are inversed - LVL6 psyker gains 1 warp die, ML 5 = 2, ML 4 = 3, ML 3 = 4, ML 2 = 5, ML 1 = 6
Psykers can only cast a number of spells up to the number of warch charges they generate or the inverse of their mastery level.

All psychic powers increased by 1 warp charge
All psykers can buy powers aside from unique pyskers that have preset powers.
All psykers can pay to have ML level increased

Perils - perils table change - When you peril, role 3d6 and minus your mastery level. (This shows that the more powerful the psyker the better chance he has to save the peril). If the result is 6 or higher, nothing happens. 5 or lower the psyker takes a wound no saves allowed and no FNP or other similar roll. If the result is 1 or lower the pysker is killed, again no saves allowed and no FNP or similar roll.
power - Invisibility - Enemies shooting or Attacking the unit are reduced to BS 1 or WS 1

Warlords can pick the warlord trait they want. EDIT - From their codex or BRB

All transports are assault vehicles but units assaulting from them take an initiative penalty of -1. Open topped transports allow you to assault at initiative as well as those with wargear like assault launchers.

All units that arrive from reserves or deepstrike can assault the turn they arrive but that assault is a disordered charge and at - 1 initiative

All units can fire interceptor at BS 2 - unless modified by wargear or special rules

All units can fire overwatch at BS 2 - unless modified by wargear or special rules

Flying MCs and GCs can be hit by shooting attacks at BS 3 - unless modified by wargear or special rules

Drop pod doors are not part of the model's hull and are always considered open when it is deployed on the table.

Ordnance Removed from the game and all ordnance weapons become primary weapons

Models in a transport that has Jinked to not count as having jinked and if they can shoot from the vehicle can shoot at full BS

Grenades
- Every model can choose to use a grenade rather than shoot if the model is equipped with grenades - this can happen in interceptor, shooting, overwatch. That model uses the grenades profile. This does not include melta bombs.

Haywire grenades - each model that has a haywire grenade equipped can replace its melee attacks with 1 haywire attack - can only be used on vehicles.

Melta bombs - each model that has a melta bomb equipped can replace its melee attacks with 1 melta bomb attack - can only be used on vehicles.

Fearless - Can go to ground and use Our weapons are useless

ATSKNF - Removed from the game.

Rough rule - All high single shot high str weapons - 8+ that are AP 2 or 1 do d3 wounds or d3 hull points dmg to individual models

Codex specific fixes


Eldar - D weapons reverted back to 6th ed rule - except for Weapons platforms, vehicles and wraithknights. Windriders become fast attack unless you have an HQ on a bike. Wind riders are 20pts base and + 15 pts for Scatter lasers or +10 pts for Shuriken cannons
Warpspiders now cost +6pts per model = 25ppm and 35pts for exarch

Blood Angels have access to all codex marine wargear and vehicles.

Tyranids all ground units gain the beast unit type as well as their current type

Astra Militarum
All infantry type units that can take a vehicle can do so for free
All vehicles that have sponson mounted / pintle / hull weapons for free
All baneblade variants are 100pts cheaper
All forgeworld LOW options are 50pts cheaper
All AM troop choices have a standard Endless swarm rule where once a unit is destroyed, all the models go into reserves and can come on from reserve the next turn and gain Outflank - EDIT - can only happen once per unit

Dark Eldar

Jetbikes provide same bonuses as CW Eldar
Flyers gain vector dancer
Void raven missiles are reduced by 20pts for each option
Increase all armor saves +1 (except for units that have a 3+ or 2+)
Give wyches acrobatic rule
Give all units fleet
All units have power from pain - starts turn 1
All units have combat drugs - Pick 2 per turn per unit - Cannot use the same drug in consecutive turns.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/10/28 18:04:02


9000
8000
Knights / Assassins 800  
   
Made in gb
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant






All AM units that can have a transport can get one for free? Isn't a valkrye a transport option for quite a few units? Are you crazy?

My hobby instagram account: @the_shroud_of_vigilance
My Shroud of Vigilance Hobby update blog for me detailed updates and lore on the faction:
Blog 
   
Made in us
Gore-Soaked Lunatic Witchhunter







You've picked out the right problems, but your solutions tend to be incomplete, mission statements for really complicated changes, or tangential to the actual issue. Point by point:

Naaris wrote:
All statlines cannot have a base value lower than 3 for any given stat - aside from armor and Wounds. 3 is the standard humanoid average for a stat. - Of course all units can have their stats altered via abilities etc... Cannot be lower than 1 or higher than 10.


...Minimum three Attacks a model? Also what, exactly, is this going to change? You'll take away the reason to use normal Guardsmen over Conscripts, you'll make Grots a bit tougher, and you'll give Genestealers a BS? Why?

All units auto run their full movement distance - but if they run through terrain they suffer - 1 WS, - 1 I in the ensuing combat phase - regardless of if they have some assault grenade mechanic or ability to attack at initiative - move through cover overrides this.
All units move their full distance when moving through terrain, but they suffer -1 to BS in the ensuing psychic and shooting phases - move through cover overrides this.


I'm skeptical, but I'm open to discussing this one further.

Invulnerable saves cannot be reduced to 2+. 3+ is the best that invulnerable save can be regardless of powers or abilities


Maybe? The only things that give 2++ off the top of my head are Sanctuary on Hammernators (which is inefficient enough nobody really bothers), Tzeentch Daemons (who need a rethink anyway), and the Shadowfield (which is a weird holdover from 3rd edition), it seems like a pretty narrow change.


Mastery Levels are inversed - LVL6 psyker gains 1 warp die, ML 5 = 2, ML 4 = 3, ML 3 = 4, ML 2 = 5, ML 1 = 6
Psykers can only cast a number of spells up to the number of warch charges they generate or the inverse of their mastery level.


This is how the game works now, except that Mastery levels only go up to four and there isn't a weird inverse numbering scheme.


All psychic powers increased by 1 warp charge
All psykers can buy powers aside from unique pyskers that have preset powers.
All psykers can pay to have ML level increased


As a blanket across-the-board change this is a terrible idea. You can't 'fix' the Psychic phase with a one-sentence change to all powers. There are two-hundred-odd psychic powers in the game; many are overpriced, many are underpriced, many are useless chaff that only exist to give a show of balancing randomly-rolled powers. Any fix is going to have to start by trimming back the proliferation of unique tables and taking a long, hard look at each power you're going to include individually.


Perils - perils table change - When you peril, role 3d6 and minus your mastery level. (This shows that the more powerful the psyker the better chance he has to save the peril). If the result is 6 or higher, nothing happens. 5 or lower the psyker takes a wound no saves allowed and no FNP or other similar roll. If the result is 1 or lower the pysker is killed, again no saves allowed and no FNP or similar roll.


Needless complication.


power - Invisibility - Enemies shooting or Attacking the unit are reduced to BS 1 or WS 1


Totally in agreement on this one.


Warlords can pick the warlord trait they want. EDIT - From their codex or BRB


Maybe? This probably should exist but I'm hesitant to allow it across-the-board without limitation, potentially limit a given Warlord to some subset of the tables? In any case it's got to come with an overhaul of the tables, there are incredibly powerful ones and incredibly useless ones included to balance out the random element.


All transports are assault vehicles but units assaulting from them take an initiative penalty of -1. Open topped transports allow you to assault at initiative as well as those with wargear like assault launchers.

All units that arrive from reserves or deepstrike can assault the turn they arrive but that assault is a disordered charge and at - 1 initiative


Maybe? Grey Knights and Aspect Warriors are probably going to get the most out of this, could be excessive or irrelevant. Assaulting out of Deep Strike I'm more skeptical about, if that's going to exist it's got to come with some way to prevent/avoid/interact with Deep Strike.


All units can fire interceptor at BS 2 - unless modified by wargear or special rules


Probably not, if only from a bookkeeping perspective. Having to keep track of which units fired Interceptor and which haven't seems like extra slowdown to no benefit to me.


All units can fire overwatch at BS 2 - unless modified by wargear or special rules


I'd rather not. Assault is hard enough these days.


Flying MCs and GCs can be hit by shooting attacks at BS 3 - unless modified by wargear or special rules


I won't deny that a fix is needed but this isn't it. It's indiscriminate and makes the expense of getting an FMC in the first place a waste of time and space.


Drop pod doors are not part of the model's hull and are always considered open when it is deployed on the table.

Ordnance Removed from the game and all ordnance weapons become primary weapons


Meh? Not much to comment on.


Models in a transport that has Jinked to not count as having jinked and if they can shoot from the vehicle can shoot at full BS


DE will be happy. Are there any other open-topped Skimmer transports that carry units that want to shoot from inside them? None are coming to mind.


Grenades
- Every model can choose to use a grenade rather than shoot if the model is equipped with grenades - this can happen in interceptor, shooting, overwatch. That model uses the grenades profile. This does not include melta bombs.

Haywire grenades - each model that has a haywire grenade equipped can replace its melee attacks with 1 haywire attack - can only be used on vehicles.

Melta bombs - each model that has a melta bomb equipped can replace its melee attacks with 1 melta bomb attack - can only be used on vehicles.


Please god no. If you've never seen a Legion Seeker squad with Rapid Fire S3 Blast boltguns you've never seen delay of play, making us sit back and wait for thirty S3 Conscript frag grenade attacks is the opposite of progress. Melee grenades maybe? Will have to reexamine.


Fearless - Can go to ground and use Our weapons are useless


Can't recommend deleting the downsides of the rule. And when your rule says "Can't be Pinned and can't Fall Back" extra text that says "...unless you enter the state voluntarily" you're asking for a mess (if that doesn't sound that complicated go Google 'MTG state-based effects' and come back once your brain starts to hurt)


ATSKNF - Removed from the game.


Fix/alteration maybe, hard axe probably not. The point is to make the morale rules less punishing for armies that are routinely spending 100+pts absolute minimum on most of their units (GK and Deathwatch more so than regular SM), if someone can point a fifty-point Pathfinder unit at a 250pt Kill-Team and completely lock it down something's wrong. Morale as a whole needs a more comprehensive fix than just "delete ATSKNF".


Rough rule - All high single shot high str weapons - 8+ that are AP 2 or 1 do d3 wounds or d3 hull points dmg to individual models


Skeptical. If you really want to do this it's got to come with some increases to wounds/HP; I'd recommend a more limited implementation (extra hull points somewhere on the vehicle damage table, 6 to wound deals d3 wounds, something like that).



Codex specific fixes


Eldar - D weapons reverted back to 6th ed rule - except for Weapons platforms, vehicles and wraithknights. Windriders become fast attack unless you have an HQ on a bike. Wind riders are 20pts base and + 15 pts for Scatter lasers or +10 pts for Shuriken cannons
Warpspiders now cost +6pts per model = 25ppm and 35pts for exarch


These are fairly tangential, to my mind. D-weapons on Wraithguard (which are the only ones your fix would actually affect, given that the Wraithseer's D-cannon is the same gun as the weapon platform's) aren't that much of an issue; removing the d3 Wounds/hull points clause from D-scythe weapons actually addresses the problem. The Wraithknight urgently needs a price hike (earlier discussions/computations have led me to the conclusion that 400-450 would be reasonable), and Windriders need limited quantity of guns far more than a price hike (17ppm and one upgrade weapon per three models for +12/15pts (shuricat/scatter) would be a good starting point).


Blood Angels have access to all codex marine wargear and vehicles.


Cool. Do Codex Marines get access to BA wargear and vehicles? (WHERE'S MY TACTICAL SQUAD HEAVY FLAMER, GW? (/hyperbole))


Tyranids all ground units gain the beast unit type as well as their current type


Workable.


Astra Militarum
All infantry type units that can take a vehicle can do so for free
All vehicles that have sponson mounted / pintle / hull weapons for free
All baneblade variants are 100pts cheaper
All forgeworld LOW options are 50pts cheaper
All AM troop choices have a standard Endless swarm rule where once a unit is destroyed, all the models go into reserves and can come on from reserve the next turn and gain Outflank - EDIT - can only happen once per unit


Absolutely no. I can't say "no" fast enough. The rest of this is sensible, or an incomplete fix to a sensible problem, this is just insane. The munchkin in me is giggling at the 1,000pt list of 22 Chimeras you've just handed me (the seven Valkyries in 500pts you've given D99 are icing on the cake). I know the desire to replicate the OP-as-*bleep* Space Marine formation is strong, but the Space Marines are getting free 35pt Rhinos with a single Storm Bolter, not free 65pt Chimeras with two heavy weapons, and it's an imbalance that needs to be excised, not spread further.

Guard superheavies really don't need to be cheaper, and across-the-board two-units-for-the-price-of-one is just silly.

(Under these rules it's pretty easy to get more free stuff than the cost of your list, but the most absurd hyperbolic example I can give you is getting two Veteran Squads in Chimeras that return to Reserves when killed as a Kill Team list)


Dark Eldar

Jetbikes provide same bonuses as CW Eldar
Flyers gain vector dancer
Void raven missiles are reduced by 20pts for each option
Increase all armor saves +1 (except for units that have a 3+ or 2+)
Give wyches acrobatic rule
Give all units fleet
All units have power from pain - starts turn 1
All units have combat drugs - Pick 2 per turn per unit - Cannot use the same drug in consecutive turns.


These are all pretty odd; they don't fix much, and they raise too many broad questions about why units in other armies don't get these things. I don't know what to do with DE (my ideas start with the durability of the vehicles, resurrecting the 3e Webway Portal, MSM/Relentless on Scourges, and more night-fighting/to-hit/cover interactions), but these aren't problems that have ever occurred to me.

Balanced Game: Noun. A game in which all options and choices are worth using.
Homebrew oldhammer project: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/790996.page#10896267
Meridian: Necromunda-based 40k skirmish: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/795374.page 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





STATLINES
Nah. Gretchin are meant to be weedy little jerks that die to a stiff breeze. It's part of their charm. I actually think more units should have stats below 3. Cultists make more sense at WS and BS 2 than 3, etc. As has been pointed out, things like minimum 3 attacks is a bit odd as is giving a BS to things that shouldn't be able to fire weapons.

RUNNING AND MOVEMENT
Running full distance is probably fine in my book; it works well in Heralds of Ruin Kill Team games. I don't like all these penalties you're throwing around though. The "average" 40k game is relatively large scale. Keeping track of lots of fiddly little modifiers is kind of a pain to keep track of and can slow the game down significantly. It also punishes assault-based armies somewhat. These penalties might make more sense in something on the scale of Combat Patrol or Necromunda.

INVULNERABLE SAVES
Nah. I know that death stars are a pain, but this isn't the way to deal with it. My archon's shadowfield is far from OP, and he doesn't particularly feel like getting nerfed further. I feel like you're trying to solve the problem of specific death stars with general changes on this one. I feel there's probably a better way to address this issue.

PSYCHIC STUFF
I'm not sure I see what you're going for here. Higher mastery level psykers generate fewer warp dice and are more likely to die from perils? Example: As written, I roll 3d6 when I perils and subtract my ML, and bad stuff happens on a 5 or lower. So if I roll a 7 and I'm ML1, I'm fine. If I roll 7 and I'm ML6, I'm dead. Is this a typo? Would more powerful psykers actually have a lower ML? And why 6 different MLs? Currently, the highest ML in the game is 4. I'm confused by this.

I'm a fan of purchasing powers provided the broken powers are fixed and the good powers are priced with their more abusable applications in mind. Raising the WC of all powers punishes armies that don't spam psykers. The lone librarian will now have to roll 4 dice to have a decent chance at getting off a basic power like smite. I like the idea of ammending the psychic phase in general, but I'm not sure I like these suggestions.

WARLORD TRAITS
I like this provided traits come with an associated points cost. The problem here is, of course, that some traits are devastatingly powerful while some are crummy. I want to be able to pick my warlord trait, but you should probably limit this to rewritten, codex-specific tables. A corpse thief claw does much nastier things with Master of Ambush than a Sisters army.

TRANSPORTS AS ASSAULT VEHICLES
I'd be fine with this. Thoughts on simply having charges the turn you disembark be a disordered charge? It uses an existing rule instead of having another floating modifier to keep track of, and it penalizes all units pretty consistently. Low initiative armies and units aren't really penalized by this proposal (they were swinging last anyway), and I'm not sure that was your intention.

ASSAULTING OUT OF RESERVES
Probably okay. I'm mostly fine with this on outflankers (you just stay away from the table edges until they arrive), but I worry about assault-heavy deepstrike armies basically making shooty armies non-interactive. Imagine a daemon player getting his entire army into assault on turn 2 with a shooty player's only means of interacting with him being a round of overwatch first. Also, I'm not sure why you like lowering initiative so much. Again, this punishes some armies more than others and is another thing to keep track of.

SHOOTING MODIFIERS
Interceptor: Is this saying that all units have interceptor at a reduced BS, or is this saying that all units with interceptor simply intercept at a worse BS? The former is an interesting idea, but I'd note that some armies, like orks, rely on volume of fire and are thus not overly concerned with a minor BS penalty (assuming the minimum BS3 thing goes through). The latter is pretty harsh and is akin, in my eyes, to saying, "You can't really interceptor in this system."

Overwatch: Why the boost to overwatch? I was under the impression that many people felt overwatch was mostly fine but tended to be unfun when it causes charges to fail. This change just makes overwatching in general much better.

Flyers/GCs: Why are MCs easier to hit than vehicles? I'd actually be kind of okay with this one as flyers in general are non-interactive with many armies (especially at lower points), but I'd also note that the points cost for flying MCs should drop significantly.

DROP PODS
Yes please.

ORDNANCE
Why? I'm not opposed to this change. I'm just not clear on what the purpose of the change is.

GRENADES
Nope nope nope. Veteran guardsmen and tac marines are now shooting nothing but strength 6 and special weapons if they get anywhere close to an enemy. Swooping hawks will annihilate all things mechanical in the shooting phase as well as the assault phase. I like allowing all models to use their grenades in assault, but flinging grenades left and right was one of the problematic rules issues from 6th edition that actually got fixed in 7th.

FEARLESS
Agreed.

ATSKNF
Eh... I think some sort of change might be more appropriate than removing it entirely. The rule itself isn't directly problematic. The problem is that it invalidates lots of interesting options (like dark eldar soul fright weapons), insults the CSM who are more cowardly despite living in the eye of friggin' terror, and is just so commonplace. That last point is more an issue with the meta. Marines are a popular army and get lots of support from GW, so you're likely to play against them. ATSKNF would be less of a problem if it weren't on half the armies in the game. I feel like a change would be better than removal here.

ROUGH
I like this, but I'd argue to remove the AP restriction. or at least bump it up to AP3. A krak missile should benefit from this, right?

ELDAR
D-Weapons: Sure. I was fine with the old rules anyway.
Jetbikes as FA: I'm fine with this. Taking a bike HQ lets you play a fluffy Saimhann list, and the points increase is justified. I'd still like to see the heavy weapon options go back to 1 per 3.
Warp Spiders: Fine by me. There are other ways to "fix" spiders, but this seems fine.

TYRANIDS
Close, but no. Tyranids do have mobility problems, but venomthropes don't really need to be beasts. This also invalidates several FA options. Shrikes are pointless next to warriors, for instance, and gargoyles become pretty meh next to regular termagants. There are a lot of ways to fix tyranid mobility problems, but that's a thread unto itself.

ASTRA MILLITARUM
Free vehicles are bad. I'd rather see other factions (*cough*marines*cough) lose free vehicles rather than making it the new norm.
Free upgrades are probably not great but are fine in some circumstances. Consider the eldar guardian formations, for instnace.
I can't really comment on the baneblades or LOW stuff.
Respawning Units: Eh... Maybe. I feel like this should be tied to some sort of option that restricts other choices. Sort of like how Renegades do it.

DARK ELDAR
Jetbikes: Which bonuses exactly? I'm fine with reavers as they are, honestly. They're flexible in their role, they hit reasonably hard, and skilled rider does a lot for them. If this is a fluff thing, remember that reaver bikes are the stripped down, extra-speedy, extra-lightweight version of the craftworlder bikes.
Flyers: YES.
Void Raven: Maybe. I feel the flyers really need to fulfill their niches more effectively. Making them cheaper might make them more cost-effective, but I'm not sure it really addresses the issue that other options can do similar jobs better.
Increase Saves: No. Dark eldar are meant to be glass cannons. I'd be okay with having options like ghost armor available to warriors, but there's no reason to give grotesques a 5+ or scourges a 3+. There are better ways to address the survivability of dark eldar than to simply improve their armor, and improving their armor arguably takes away some of their character.

Wyches: Giving them acrobatic would make sense but it also doesn't really help them. Wyches don't have problems getting into combat. Our fast, open-topped transports and the fleet rule let us do that just fine. The problem is that wyches just don't hit very hard when they get there. This would make ground-based wych blobs an option, I suppose. If anyone was really forlorn about not being able to run massive blobs of wyches.

Army-Wide Fleet: No. Almost everything has fleet anyway. The lack of fleet on units that don't have fleet helps give them personality and reinforces the usefulness of fleet on other units. A talos doesn't really need to have fleet. It isn't lightning fast like a dark eldar. A grotesque is big, but not necessarily fast. There's already a formation that gives them a chance at being fleet, and it's arguably one of the worst options on that table. What unit in the dark eldar codex do you feel really needs fleet that doesn't already have it?

Power From Pain: No. PFP is meant to reflect the dark eldars' "psychic vampirism" thing. It's their way of getting hyped up on violence and hitting harder because of it. I don't see a reason for an Ur-Ghul or a razorwing flock (the creature, not the plane) to benefit from it. Again, what unit doesn't have PFP that you feel deserves it? Starting on turn 1 doesn't really fix the problems with PFP in general. The rule needs to be reworked in general.

Combat Drugs: That's a lot of bookkeeping. I'd be fine with drugs being purchasable instead of random though. I also kind of miss the original DE book's combat drug system for characters.



ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
Made in us
Norn Queen






For ATSKNF, use something like the 30k version of chapter tactics.

Each chapter gets their special rules, but all of them get to use full unmodified leadership to regroup/fear whatever.

It means they still have to make the tests and can still fail but they have situational stubborn.


These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





 Lance845 wrote:
For ATSKNF, use something like the 30k version of chapter tactics.

Each chapter gets their special rules, but all of them get to use full unmodified leadership to regroup/fear whatever.

It means they still have to make the tests and can still fail but they have situational stubborn.


That might work. How about just removing the part where they can't be swept in melee (even the bravest marines might be cut down trying to fall back to a more tennable position) and not making them immune to things like Soul Fright weapons?


ATTENTION
. Psychic tests are unfluffy. Your longing for AV is understandable but misguided. Your chapter doesn't need a separate codex. Doctrines should go away. Being a "troop" means nothing. This has been a cranky service announcement. You may now resume your regularly scheduled arguing.
 
   
 
Forum Index » 40K Proposed Rules
Go to: