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Dark Eldar:+8 Infantry: 8ppm Warrior Bike: 16ppm Reaver
CSM: +7 Infantry: 13ppm CSM Bike: 20ppm CSM Bike
Orks: +12 Infantry: 6ppm Boy Bike: 18ppm Warbiker
Now, to start with, a number of those bikes above come with special rules that increase their price. Furthermore, some give fewer benefits to the model so cost a bit less. Some give better weapons and some give better options, regardless this is the base costs.
So Ork Boyz start out as the CHEAPEST standard infantry choice but when you give that boy a bike his price TRIPLES. So lets start with Movement. Ork bikers gain the same movement bonus that every other biker gets (except eldar). He actually loses the bonus afforded to him by his "Ere We Go" Special rule in regards to the Waaagh (He can not turbo and assault). So no bonus to movement for this guy.
Shooting. This is probably the one area where an Ork gets a relatively big bonus compared to most other factions. he goes from a Pistol to a TL S5AP5 assault 3 Range 18 gun. That is a rather big boost. Most other bikers just get their same standard weapon and get it TL'd. HOWEVER! The Ork player gets zero options to upgrade those guns. He can not equip Grav weapons, flamers or Melta like a SM can, he can't spam S6 Range 36 Scat lasers like Eldar Can. Hell he can't change anything.
CC: An Ork gets the exact same bonuses by adding a bike as everyone else in Close combat, that is +1 Toughness and better armor. Now the argument could go along the lines that Orks pay more for this because they are good at CC (something I still contest they are not good at) But if we go by that logic, shouldn't Eldar/SMs have to pay more for the bonus to survivability because they are so tough to kill? How about them paying more to use those special weapons/heavy weapons because of their good BS and the fact that they are predominantly shooting armies? So really those two equal out in my book.
Extras: The only extra orks get for having bikes is that they get +1 to cover saves IF they turbo boost. This is a relatively useful skill. Especially when you team it with night fighting or pay out the nose to get Zhadsnark and get that skilled rider bonus for his squad. 2+ cover saves are nice for Orks (until they get to CC where they are supposedly good...and they die) Of course other factions get bonuses to. Eldar most notably get a rather big boost just by being Eldar. JSJ and extra speed.
If you look at the rest of those factions the average cost of a Bike upgrade is a bit over 5ppm. So lets take it to the other end and say orks should have to pay 6ppm for their bike upgrade, wouldn't that make it more even?
So my conclusion is that for Orks the upgrade to a bike should be 6ppm, making Warbikers 12ppm. I am not sold on how to upgrade Nobz to bikers but I would gladly DOUBLE that cost to 12 and take it. What say you lot? Would that be a fair? do you have other suggestions? Whats your opinion on this matter in general.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/30 15:23:56
Probably the biggest reason for the price bump for Warbikers is they go from 6+ armor to 4+ and that the dakkagun is a substantial upgrade over the slugga or shoota unlike SM bikes with their TL bolters. Warbikers still retain their slugga + choppa so they still have an extra attack in CC while I believe the standard SM bikers only have 1 weapon. Eldar bikes (like the majority of that codex) are underprices while the DE ones are overpriced (no surprise that the spiky pansiez get the short end of the stikk). Tomb Blades use to be gak but got a buff so its decently fair for them if a bit cheap. Really the comparison should be between Tomb Blades and Immortals which is so heavily favored for the TBs that there is very little reason (outside of formation requirements) to use immortals.
Now the real question is.... Why the zog are warbikes for Nobz a fething 27 ppm upgrade?
"Hold my shoota, I'm goin in"
Armies (7th edition points)
7000+ Points Death Skullz
4000 Points
+ + 3000 Points "The Fiery Heart of the Emperor"
3500 Points "Void Kraken" Space Marines
3000 Points "Bard's Booze Cruise"
Vankraken wrote: Probably the biggest reason for the price bump for Warbikers is they go from 6+ armor to 4+ and that the dakkagun is a substantial upgrade over the slugga or shoota unlike SM bikes with their TL bolters. Warbikers still retain their slugga + choppa so they still have an extra attack in CC while I believe the standard SM bikers only have 1 weapon. Eldar bikes (like the majority of that codex) are underprices while the DE ones are overpriced (no surprise that the spiky pansiez get the short end of the stikk). Tomb Blades use to be gak but got a buff so its decently fair for them if a bit cheap. Really the comparison should be between Tomb Blades and Immortals which is so heavily favored for the TBs that there is very little reason (outside of formation requirements) to use immortals.
Now the real question is.... Why the zog are warbikes for Nobz a fething 27 ppm upgrade?
For Orks to upgrade to 4+ armor it costs them 4pts and this is universally considered too expensive and is almost never used. Keep in mind that other factions gain armor as well, specifically Eldar. I would argue that this is about equal when you consider AP weapons in the game. There are a lot more AP4 ranged weapons then there are AP3. In other words Eldar players don't have to jink as much.
As far as the Dakka Gunz, like I said this is a relatively big boost. But if you compare them to the standard long arm that most factions put on bike they are only slightly better. SMsTL Bolters (Range 24 S4 AP5) Eldar TL Shuriken Catapults (S4 Blade Storm) So with that in mind a better comparison would be a Shoota which is S4 AP6 Assault 2 range 18. So it gets upgraded to S5 AP5 Assault 3 Range 18 TL. It is also shooting at BS2 compared to the other factions mentioned shooting at BS4. And again, there are no upgrades after that....that is it. And if you want to get the bonus that ork bikers get they have to turbo boost and forgo shooting entirely for 1 turn and be snap shooting on the next. So its a rather big trade off.
I honestly think this is rather silly to. Orks who are supposed to be a horde CC army. I would rather have Dakkagunz be an optional upgrade and reduce the price of bikers to 12ppm.
Vankraken wrote: Probably the biggest reason for the price bump for Warbikers is they go from 6+ armor to 4+ and that the dakkagun is a substantial upgrade over the slugga or shoota unlike SM bikes with their TL bolters. Warbikers still retain their slugga + choppa so they still have an extra attack in CC while I believe the standard SM bikers only have 1 weapon.
Yeah, as Vankraken said, the reason Orks pay more for a bike is that it does more in the way of upgrading them than, say, a Space Marine.
Both: all the usual bike bonus stuff
Space marine: twin-links their bolter
Ork: Gains a vastly better gun (2 more shots, +6" range, +1S and twin-linking) +2 to its save, and a potential cover save boost. If you give an Ork what you can of those upgrades by other means (eavy armour, big shoota*), you're paying 15 points, and you're losing an attack. So you're effectively paying 3pts for +1A, +1T, cover save if turbo-boosting, and increased movement. Doesn't seem unreasonable. Given that Orks are, point-for-point, about twice as effective at killing Space marines in CC than vice versa**, that increased move is more beneficial to an Ork than a Space Marine.
I totally agree that some stuff in the Ork Codex is overcosted but I think, given the benefits a warbike confers, this is one of the least egregious offenders.
* yeah, you're gaining an extra 18" range over the dakkagun, but that's mostly mitigated by increased movement rate.
** assuming I haven't made some kind of terrible maths blunder.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And let's leave the Eldar out of it for now as nobody thinks Jetbikes are reasonably costed.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I think I might have just talked myself into buying a box of warbikers for my orks tbh.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/10/30 16:22:15
In my opinion Ork Warbikers are actually very well prices for what you get, perhaps comparably to other armies they're more expensive but that seems to have more to do with the undercosting of their bikes and not the overcosting of ours. Something else to note is there's no way to make our Warbikers Troops without an old FW book that the writers of the Orks 7th Edition codex probably didn't even think about. Back on track to my original point - there's a reason Warbikers are so popular these days, compared to most of the codex they are very well coated.
I believe most other factions pay 20 points (or less?) to put their HQs on bikes while it costs us 25, if I'm correct there then this is a bit of an issue. As Vankraken says the real issue is why the devil do Nobz, who are already significantly overcosted, pay 27 points to get a Warbike? Well, the answer is probably so that we all go out and buy the points-decreased Warbikers and the suddenly superior Mega Nobz instead of using our old collections of converted AoBR Nobz.
I'm hopeful that Orks will get a pricing restructure in the next edition now that GW has changed direction on how they price units and wargear, as well as the power increase since our last codex came out. As it currently stands we only have a handful of appropriately (or near appropriately) priced units, which can lead to dull list building if you care about winning some of your games.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/30 16:45:23
Yeah, as Vankraken said, the reason Orks pay more for a bike is that it does more in the way of upgrading them than, say, a Space Marine.
Both: all the usual bike bonus stuff
Space marine: twin-links their bolter
Ork: Gains a vastly better gun (2 more shots, +6" range, +1S and twin-linking) +2 to its save, and a potential cover save boost. If you give an Ork what you can of those upgrades by other means (eavy armour, big shoota*), you're paying 15 points, and you're losing an attack. So you're effectively paying 3pts for +1A, +1T, cover save if turbo-boosting, and increased movement. Doesn't seem unreasonable. Given that Orks are, point-for-point, about twice as effective at killing Space marines in CC than vice versa**, that increased move is more beneficial to an Ork than a Space Marine.
I totally agree that some stuff in the Ork Codex is overcosted but I think, given the benefits a warbike confers, this is one of the least egregious offenders.
* yeah, you're gaining an extra 18" range over the dakkagun, but that's mostly mitigated by increased movement rate.
** assuming I haven't made some kind of terrible maths blunder.
SM Biker 21pts Ork Biker 18pts.
SMs have +1 Strength, +2 BS, +2 Initiative, +1 Leadership and a 3+ Armor save. The Orks have +1 attacks. They get to keep both their pistol and CC weapon so they get another +1 attacks in CC.
SMs can equip flamers for 5ppm, a Meltagun for 10 or a plasma or a Grav gun for 15. SMs can also get a Melta bomb on a sergeant for 5pts. Adding to that SMs benefit from ATSKNF AND Chapter tactics. Ohh and for 40pts they can add in an Attack Bike with 2 Wounds that can fire its TL Bolters AND a Heavy Bolter.
Orks benefit (to a lesser extent) from Ere We go, (only get 1/2 the benefits then a regular Ork Boy). So while yes a TL S5 Assault 3 weapon is a nice big boost, it is still on a BS2 platform that will be running away frequently because Mob Rule doesn't help them to often.
The worst part about this is those benefits for SMs are just for Vanilla Marines. When you get into the specialized chapters there are even more benefits like White Scars (Skilled Rider, +1S on HoW, Hit and Run) Dark Angels (Reroll failed Jink saves, Hit and Run, Teleport Homers, Scout, Grim Resolve +1BS to overatch) Add in the other stuff and its normal to be facing a Dark Angels biker army with rerollable 2+ or 3+ Jink Saves.
Orks don't have any of those benefits and our bikers are almost as expensive. What we get is a bigger gun with a short range that we don't really want because they have BS2.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
xlDuke wrote: In my opinion Ork Warbikers are actually very well prices for what you get, perhaps comparably to other armies they're more expensive but that seems to have more to do with the undercosting of their bikes and not the overcosting of ours. Something else to note is there's no way to make our Warbikers Troops without an old FW book that the writers of the Orks 7th Edition codex probably didn't even think about. Back on track to my original point - there's a reason Warbikers are so popular these days, compared to most of the codex they are very well coated.
I believe most other factions pay 20 points (or less?) to put their HQs on bikes while it costs us 25, if I'm correct there then this is a bit of an issue. As Vankraken says the real issue is why the devil do Nobz, who are already significantly overcosted, pay 27 points to get a Warbike? Well, the answer is probably so that we all go out and buy the points-decreased Warbikers and the suddenly superior Mega Nobz instead of using our old collections of converted AoBR Nobz.
I'm hopeful that Orks will get a pricing restructure in the next edition now that GW has changed direction on how they price units and wargear, as well as the power increase since our last codex came out. As it currently stands we only have a handful of appropriately (or near appropriately) priced units, which can lead to dull list building if you care about winning some of your games.
I get what you are saying and I agree with a lot of it. I Do think that compared to the rest of our garbage codex that the Bikers are the closest thing to appropriately priced and that almost every other factions bikers are under priced for what they bring. But since we have never seen a real nerf across several factions in regards to certain things (IE bikes) its more likely that those units will stay the same price, with that in mind Warbikers need a price drop.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/30 16:49:13
Yeah, as Vankraken said, the reason Orks pay more for a bike is that it does more in the way of upgrading them than, say, a Space Marine.
Both: all the usual bike bonus stuff
Space marine: twin-links their bolter
Ork: Gains a vastly better gun (2 more shots, +6" range, +1S and twin-linking) +2 to its save, and a potential cover save boost. If you give an Ork what you can of those upgrades by other means (eavy armour, big shoota*), you're paying 15 points, and you're losing an attack. So you're effectively paying 3pts for +1A, +1T, cover save if turbo-boosting, and increased movement. Doesn't seem unreasonable. Given that Orks are, point-for-point, about twice as effective at killing Space marines in CC than vice versa**, that increased move is more beneficial to an Ork than a Space Marine.
I totally agree that some stuff in the Ork Codex is overcosted but I think, given the benefits a warbike confers, this is one of the least egregious offenders.
* yeah, you're gaining an extra 18" range over the dakkagun, but that's mostly mitigated by increased movement rate.
** assuming I haven't made some kind of terrible maths blunder.
SM Biker 21pts Ork Biker 18pts.
SMs have +1 Strength, +2 BS, +2 Initiative, +1 Leadership and a 3+ Armor save. The Orks have +1 attacks. They get to keep both their pistol and CC weapon so they get another +1 attacks in CC.
SMs can equip flamers for 5ppm, a Meltagun for 10 or a plasma or a Grav gun for 15. SMs can also get a Melta bomb on a sergeant for 5pts. Adding to that SMs benefit from ATSKNF AND Chapter tactics. Ohh and for 40pts they can add in an Attack Bike with 2 Wounds that can fire its TL Bolters AND a Heavy Bolter.
Orks benefit (to a lesser extent) from Ere We go, (only get 1/2 the benefits then a regular Ork Boy). So while yes a TL S5 Assault 3 weapon is a nice big boost, it is still on a BS2 platform that will be running away frequently because Mob Rule doesn't help them to often.
The worst part about this is those benefits for SMs are just for Vanilla Marines. When you get into the specialized chapters there are even more benefits like White Scars (Skilled Rider, +1S on HoW, Hit and Run) Dark Angels (Reroll failed Jink saves, Hit and Run, Teleport Homers, Scout, Grim Resolve +1BS to overatch) Add in the other stuff and its normal to be facing a Dark Angels biker army with rerollable 2+ or 3+ Jink Saves.
Orks don't have any of those benefits and our bikers are almost as expensive. What we get is a bigger gun with a short range that we don't really want because they have BS2.
You seem to have gone from complaining about the bike upgrade cost to the respective basic troops, to complaining about the difference between Orks and Space Marines, to complaining about assorted special rules specific to certain factions. Shifting the goalposts a bit, aren't you?
You seem to have gone from complaining about the bike upgrade cost to the respective basic troops, to complaining about the difference between Orks and Space Marines, to complaining about assorted special rules specific to certain factions. Shifting the goalposts a bit, aren't you?
Actually not at all. The price of a model SHOULD be directly related to the stats of the model and the special rules/options it has access to. Otherwise the price is nothing but a number with no real meaning.
Eldar should be priced higher because they provide a lot of benefits over a regular Dire Avenger, they also have access to scat lasers spam.
SMs should be priced higher because they provide a lot of benefits over a regular Tactical SM, they also gain double access to special weapons and other benefits. The special chapters within the SM faction that can make them even more OP should be priced higher as well.
Dark Eldar should believe it or not be priced even higher as well because they gain a number of benefits from the bike INCLUDING keeping there +1 attack for CC weapons as well as coming standard with Skilled Rider.
Orks: The only benefit an ork gets that everyone else DOESN'T get is that they get a bigger gun, not just a TL regular gun. We also get a modified version of Skilled rider if we forgo shooting and assaulting.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Sorry I should have clarified that position above. They should cost MORE points but only if they don't seriously DECREASE the points for Warbikers. Not both.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/10/30 17:12:22
Well, compare the core boy to the biker, which is what you should be doing rather than other armies.
It's 4 points to go from 6+ save to 4+ save, so of the 12 points you're paying extra, there's a third of it.
+6" movement is 3 pts per model, which you can eyeball from the Stormboyz, which are just lads with jump packs.
5 pts to go.
+1 toughness is a harder read, but call it 2 pts.
In addition to the slugga and choppa, you get the dakkagun, which is one heck of a weapon. Probably a 5 pt upgrade by itself.
You're now at -2 points!
And you get that +1 cover save when jinking, which isn't astounding but it's something, so call it another point.
See, I really don't think the issue is that Ork Bikers are too expensive; they get a lot for their 12 points over a regular boy.
Nobody thinks Eldar jetbikes are fairly costed (as an aside, I'm not clear on why you keep comparing Windriders to Dire Avengers rather than Guardians).
Maybe you should be starting from a position of "why do Space Marines pay so little for bikes?", rather than grumbling about one of the better units Orks have available to them.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/30 17:25:50
Wakshaani wrote: Well, compare the core boy to the biker, which is what you should be doing rather than other armies.
It's 4 points to go from 6+ save to 4+ save, so of the 12 points you're paying extra, there's a third of it.
+6" movement is 3 pts per model, which you can eyeball from the Stormboyz, which are just lads with jump packs.
Except that nobody takes either that upgrade or that model because they are over priced with to many downsides. if your going to use this broken logic then lets take a look at Nobz and Meganobz. A nob with a PK and 4+ Eavy armor costs 47pts. a Nob with 2+ armor and a PK costs 40pts. Using a broken codex to establish points costs for other units in the same broken codex doesn't work.
+1 toughness is a harder read, but call it 2 pts.
In addition to the slugga and choppa, you get the dakkagun, which is one heck of a weapon. Probably a 5 pt upgrade by itself.
+1 Toughness is a big boost I will grant you that, the Dakkagun though? 3S5 TL shots at Range 18 isn't that great of a weapon, especially when it is so short ranged and since apparently orks are supposed to be in CC to benefit from there amazing skills in that area (sarcasm) But as I have previously said, I would gladly get rid of the Dakkagun for a 5-6pt reduction in price for the Warbikers.
Wakshaani wrote: You're now at -2 points!
And you get that +1 cover save when jinking, which isn't astounding but it's something, so call it another point.
Net result: -3 pts a model.
You're ahead, not behind. Enjoy the awesomeness!
You only get +1 when jinking if you Turbo boosted in the shooting phase. So to get that +1 you have to forgo shooting and assaulting, I would say that by itself cancels the benefit out. (risk/reward)
So net result: sure as hell not -3pts a model. But again, let me play devils advocate to my own argument and say you are right. As I said above as well, I would be fine with Warbikers staying the same price, or now that you have using broken logic said they are 3pts under priced, I would be ok with them being 21pts a model. SO LONG AS, every other factions bikes were also priced correctly.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nazrak wrote: See, I really don't think the issue is that Ork Bikers are too expensive; they get a lot for their 12 points over a regular boy.
Nobody thinks Eldar jetbikes are fairly costed (as an aside, I'm not clear on why you keep comparing Windriders to Dire Avengers rather than Guardians).
Maybe you should be starting from a position of "why do Space Marines pay so little for bikes?", rather than grumbling about one of the better units Orks have available to them.
By your own admission Eldar bikes aren't priced correctly.
If you compare all the rules that make up the biker choices in this game, then compare the stat lines of those units you quickly notice a big power disparity between them and Ork Warbikers. you would assume there would be a corresponding price difference, there isn't one.
The argument then shows how those other factions bikes are better then Warbikers and how closely linked to price they are to Warbikers.
Now here is the core of the issue. I actually believe that Ork Warbikers are appropriately costed atm. But only compared to my own codex.
Against other armies, those factions can take bikes as well with way better weapon options, upgrades, durability, speed, special rules. And yet they pay very little for those. SO with that in mind I think most factions bikes are horribly under priced.
So what is more likely to happen do you think? Orks receive a new codex that addresses the VAST power disparity between themselves and most other factions OR do you think it more likely that GW releases every codex that has bikers listed above and drastically nerfs them or increases the price significantly?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/30 17:34:01
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Did someone really say DARK Eldar bikes should be at a higher price point?
What is going on in this forum...
Not sure honestly.... Combat drugs and power from pain need fixes while the bikes themselves need to be 4+ armor (and somebody go smack those guardian jetbikers in their coneheads and tell them aspect armor is for aspect warriors and wear your cardboard bodysuit like a proper guardelf). I love the look of DE bikes and I love the playstyle of using caltrops to HoW lawnmower people but in practice they aren't that great.
"Hold my shoota, I'm goin in"
Armies (7th edition points)
7000+ Points Death Skullz
4000 Points
+ + 3000 Points "The Fiery Heart of the Emperor"
3500 Points "Void Kraken" Space Marines
3000 Points "Bard's Booze Cruise"
Personally the cost of bikers seems fine to me. Definitely one of the more efficient options. To me the bigger issue is just the price of upgrading the Nob across the codex. +40 points for a Power Claw and Bosspole is pretty silly.
LunarSol wrote: Personally the cost of bikers seems fine to me. Definitely one of the more efficient options. To me the bigger issue is just the price of upgrading the Nob across the codex. +40 points for a Power Claw and Bosspole is pretty silly.
You have fallen into the same trap that a number of people reading this have. I am not comparing the Warbiker to the rest of the codex. Against the rest of the Codex it shines like a chunk of gold lodged in a turd.
You have to compare it to the rest of the bike units in the game and then compare the points costs. For what they can do Warbikers are not on the same par as nearly any other army, they don't get special snowflake rules, they aren't fearless, they don't have any special weapons beyond the Nob bringing a PK. So again, why are they priced the same as other factions bikers who have better armor and a lot more special rules and options?
So basically, you're asking a question "Why are Ork Bikers so expensive?", to which most people are responding along the lines of "actually, they seem about right to me, but maybe some stuff in other codices is undercosted", and then you're telling everyone they're wrong. Not really a decent basis for a discussion is it?
You specifically took issue, in your first post, with Orks' points to upgrade to a bike being greater than other armies, then you've shifted to complaining that other bikes (rather than the cost over a non-bike guy) are too cheap. Bear in mind Ork warbikers are cheaper than SM bikers, so it stands to reason that the advantages the latter get would slightly outweigh the ones the former get. As I've said before, I don't think it's even worth comparing them to Eldar bikers because it's widely agreed those are far too good for their points.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/10/30 18:24:01
I know you think that Ork Bikers don't get a lot over Space Marine Bikers, but having a better gun standard (firing effectively a little over BS3) and getting several attacks on the charge makes them pretty good. Marine Bikers shoot better, but they're a shooting unit for the most part. Of course certain Chapter Tactics encourage them charging but overall it doesn't happen.
Compare them to Chaos Bikers for how they're similar in their roles.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Nazrak wrote: So basically, you're asking a question "Why are Ork Bikers so expensive?", to which most people are responding along the lines of "actually, they seem about right to me, but maybe some stuff in other codices is undercosted", and then you're telling everyone they're wrong. Not really a decent basis for a discussion is it?
You specifically took issue, in your first post, with Orks' points to upgrade to a bike being greater than other armies, then you've shifted to complaining that other bikes (rather than the cost over a non-bike guy) are too cheap. Bear in mind Ork warbikers are cheaper than SM bikers, so it stands to reason that the advantages the latter get would slightly outweigh the ones the former get. As I've said before, I don't think it's even worth comparing them to Eldar bikers because it's widely agreed those are far too good for their points.
I am not sure if your being purposefully obtuse or you are just looking for an argument for the sake of having one
Ork Warbikers ARE OVER PRICED when compared to every other factions bikers. Ork Warbikers are priced accordingly when compared to the rest of the Ork Codex. Those are not mutually exclusive comments.
But since you pointed out
Bear in mind Ork warbikers are cheaper than SM bikers, so it stands to reason that the advantages the latter get would slightly outweigh the ones the former get.
Lets get into that.
A SM Biker for 21pts as previously pointed out has
+2BS, +1 Strength, +2 Initiative +1 Leadership and a 3+ save. They further benefit from ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics and combat squad special rules. They come standard with a TL bolter, a Pistol and grenades. They have the option to upgrade two of their number to be specialists with corresponding weapons. They also have the option to take an attack bike. They don't have to pay for a sergeant unless you want a veteran.
Against that an Ork biker at 18pts has
+1 attacks. He loses half the benefits from Ere We go, he doesn't benefit from the Waaagh at all, he does gain +1 Cover save when he Turbo's. He comes standard with CC weapon/Pistol and a TL Dakka Gun (S5 AP5 assault 3 range 18). Unless he buys a nob he doesn't benefit from Mob Rule at all (unless in CC then he gains a 1/6th chance to not run away). He doesn't have access to any special weapons or anything at all unless he buys that nob who can purchase a CC weapon.
So based on that comment you think that +2BS, +1 Strength, +2 Initiative, +1 Leadership, a better save, ATSKNF, Chapter Tactics and the rest of that is only 3pts better then an Ork getting a S5 short ranged gun, getting +1 to Cover saves when he turbos, and getting to reroll part of a failed charge.?
SM biker compared to Ork biker – Advantages: +2 BS, +1 S (if not charging), +2 I, +1 Save, ability to take upgrades (although these cost more points). Disadvantages: -2A, (also, -1S and one shot fewer on shooting attacks). You could also argue that Ork bikers get more out of HoW than Marines, since you're more likely to want to get them into combat.
Yeah, on balance an SM biker probably has the edge on an Ork one, but they cost a few points more, so I don't think it's indicative of the points costs being wildly out of whack.
I do think perhaps that you're so determined to paint Orks as a garbage army with absolutely nothing worthwhile in their list that it's colouring your judgment when it comes to the units that are pretty much ok as they are. I agree with you that the Ork codex could use some tweaking, but I reckon you're overdoing it a bit.
EDIT: I overlooked Ld and ATSKNF, so fair point on those, but I think the warbikers are far from the abject dogshit you're trying to portray them as.
Another point: you seem determined to write off the Dakkagun as completely pointless due to Orks' low BS, but (and this is giving marines the benefit of the doubt that they'll always be in double-tap range), the Dakkagun is marginally less effective than a t/l bolter against T3, exactly the same against T4, and better against T5+.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/30 18:46:41
Actually the Dakka gun is better against most targets due to the increase in strength. Even if the Bolter is in rapid fire range, it still performs less well.
So why the complaints about BS? Because they can't take special weapons?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Doing further math, the only time the TL Bolter is doing better is if the target is being wounded the same. So we are talking T2 and T7. That's stupid specific.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/30 18:55:05
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Nazrak wrote: SM biker compared to Ork biker – Advantages: +2 BS, +1 S (if not charging), +2 I, +1 Save, ability to take upgrades (although these cost more points). Disadvantages: -2A, (also, -1S and one shot fewer on shooting attacks). You could also argue that Ork bikers get more out of HoW than Marines, since you're more likely to want to get them into combat.
Yeah, on balance an SM biker probably has the edge on an Ork one, but they cost a few points more, so I don't think it's indicative of the points costs being wildly out of whack.
I do think perhaps that you're so determined to paint Orks as a garbage army with absolutely nothing worthwhile in their list that it's colouring your judgment when it comes to the units that are pretty much ok as they are. I agree with you that the Ork codex could use some tweaking, but I reckon you're overdoing it a bit.
Orks at S3 get more out of HoW then SMs at S4, because Orks are more likely to want to get into CC.....Nothing like 2-3 S3 HoW attacks to really motivate me to want to get into CC... LOL
I would argue that SMs at S4 get more out of HoW then Orks because they can actually glance vehicles with it, where as my Boyz can't. They also can hurt T7+ monsters with that HoW, my Orks can't.
I would argue that SMs get more out of their weapons then the Ork does because orks have to Turbo to get that all important 3+ Jink save on turn 1. or that SMs are BS4 so they hit more often then my BS2 Orks.
See how those arguments work?
To summarize you just agreed that 3pts is a good price differential between a SM biker and an Ork Biker because Orks get more out of HoW and have a slightly bigger (less accurate) gun.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Actually the Dakka gun is better against most targets due to the increase in strength. Even if the Bolter is in rapid fire range, it still performs less well.
So why the complaints about BS? Because they can't take special weapons?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Doing further math, the only time the TL Bolter is doing better is if the target is being wounded the same. So we are talking T2 and T7. That's stupid specific.
I actually have said several times that the TL Dakkagun is better. I just point out that its not THAT MUCH better because orks have low BS which means fewer hits in general. So it is better, just not significantly better.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/30 19:00:31
Nazrak wrote: SM biker compared to Ork biker – Advantages: +2 BS, +1 S (if not charging), +2 I, +1 Save, ability to take upgrades (although these cost more points). Disadvantages: -2A, (also, -1S and one shot fewer on shooting attacks). You could also argue that Ork bikers get more out of HoW than Marines, since you're more likely to want to get them into combat.
Yeah, on balance an SM biker probably has the edge on an Ork one, but they cost a few points more, so I don't think it's indicative of the points costs being wildly out of whack.
I do think perhaps that you're so determined to paint Orks as a garbage army with absolutely nothing worthwhile in their list that it's colouring your judgment when it comes to the units that are pretty much ok as they are. I agree with you that the Ork codex could use some tweaking, but I reckon you're overdoing it a bit.
Orks at S3 get more out of HoW then SMs at S4, because Orks are more likely to want to get into CC.....Nothing like 2-3 S3 HoW attacks to really motivate me to want to get into CC... LOL
I would argue that SMs at S4 get more out of HoW then Orks because they can actually glance vehicles with it, where as my Boyz can't. They also can hurt T7+ monsters with that HoW, my Orks can't.
I would argue that SMs get more out of their weapons then the Ork does because orks have to Turbo to get that all important 3+ Jink save on turn 1. or that SMs are BS4 so they hit more often then my BS2 Orks.
See how those arguments work?
To summarize you just agreed that 3pts is a good price differential between a SM biker and an Ork Biker because Orks get more out of HoW and have a slightly bigger (less accurate) gun.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: Actually the Dakka gun is better against most targets due to the increase in strength. Even if the Bolter is in rapid fire range, it still performs less well.
So why the complaints about BS? Because they can't take special weapons?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Doing further math, the only time the TL Bolter is doing better is if the target is being wounded the same. So we are talking T2 and T7. That's stupid specific.
I actually have said several times that the TL Dakkagun is better. I just point out that its not THAT MUCH better because orks have low BS which means fewer hits in general. So it is better, just not significantly better.
It is mathematically better in most situations. Why do you care about the actual number of hits rather than the results?
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Nazrak wrote: SM biker compared to Ork biker – Advantages: +2 BS, +1 S (if not charging), +2 I, +1 Save, ability to take upgrades (although these cost more points). Disadvantages: -2A, (also, -1S and one shot fewer on shooting attacks). You could also argue that Ork bikers get more out of HoW than Marines, since you're more likely to want to get them into combat.
Yeah, on balance an SM biker probably has the edge on an Ork one, but they cost a few points more, so I don't think it's indicative of the points costs being wildly out of whack.
I do think perhaps that you're so determined to paint Orks as a garbage army with absolutely nothing worthwhile in their list that it's colouring your judgment when it comes to the units that are pretty much ok as they are. I agree with you that the Ork codex could use some tweaking, but I reckon you're overdoing it a bit.
Orks at S3 get more out of HoW then SMs at S4, because Orks are more likely to want to get into CC.....Nothing like 2-3 S3 HoW attacks to really motivate me to want to get into CC... LOL
I would argue that SMs at S4 get more out of HoW then Orks because they can actually glance vehicles with it, where as my Boyz can't. They also can hurt T7+ monsters with that HoW, my Orks can't.
I would argue that SMs get more out of their weapons then the Ork does because orks have to Turbo to get that all important 3+ Jink save on turn 1. or that SMs are BS4 so they hit more often then my BS2 Orks.
See how those arguments work?
To summarize you just agreed that 3pts is a good price differential between a SM biker and an Ork Biker because Orks get more out of HoW and have a slightly bigger (less accurate) gun.
1. As we just established, the t/l Dakkagun is, taking accuracy into account, a better ranged weapon than the t/l bolter.
2. I never said the Orks' HoW was better than the SM, I said you're more likely to be using it because you're more likely to want your bikeboyz in CC, because (HoW notwithstanding) they are vastly more effective in CC than Marine bikers, thanks to their extra attacks.
Like I said before, you're literally not listening to anyone who's trying to dissuade you that everything about Orks is abject garbage. Which leads me to ask two questions: 1. why bother trying to initiate a discussion about it? 2. why are you playing Orks? Just find an army that does what you want it to. Because that ain't, hasn't ever been, and probably isn't going to ever be Orks.
Nightlord1987 wrote: One key point advantage to Ork bikers is that you never hesitate to Jink them like you would with Space Marine bikers.
That is a fair assessment. Though that isn't necessarily a benefit we just know that our BS2 doesn't matter so jinking won't ruin our chances to hit that badly. Same thing with shooting at flyers with lootas. Most people won't waste heavy weapons without skyfire trying to hit Flyers but orks just don't care because its not a huge drawback from what they would be doing normally anyway. It just means that our NORMAL dakka isn't impressive to begin with.
It is mathematically better in most situations. Why do you care about the actual number of hits rather than the results?
I DONT! lmao read my comments. I just agreed with you that the TL dakkagun is better, just not by a wide margin because orks have BS2 which results in fewer hits. If Ork bikers were BS3 or 4 then those TL Dakkaguns would be significantly better because it would result in more damage.
1. As we just established, the t/l Dakkagun is, taking accuracy into account, a better ranged weapon than the t/l bolter.
2. I never said the Orks' HoW was better than the SM, I said you're more likely to be using it because you're more likely to want your bikeboyz in CC, because (HoW notwithstanding) they are vastly more effective in CC than Marine bikers, thanks to their extra attacks.
Like I said before, you're literally not listening to anyone who's trying to dissuade you that everything about Orks is abject garbage. Which leads me to ask two questions: 1. why bother trying to initiate a discussion about it? 2. why are you playing Orks? Just find an army that does what you want it to. Because that ain't, hasn't ever been, and probably isn't going to ever be Orks.
1: as I have pointed out several times now in this exact thread, I AGREE! I just don't see it as a huge boost because Ork BS2 means fewer hits in general, if you could boost the damage output by a bit it would be a significantly different matter.
2: I am well aware that you said Orks would tend to use it more often. I just pointed out that Orks are S3 with HoW so its actually worse then SMsHoW. Also I don't think Ork Warbikers are "Vastly" more effective at CC then SMs. For starters if they get counter charged (a tactic experienced gamers use against Orks) they have a tendency to lose. On the charge each biker does have 4 attacks at Initiative 2 which can do work don't get me wrong, but they also have that 4+ armor which means they are going to take casualties before they swing at Initiative 2. This can and has cost me a number of battles.
3: I am listening to your comments. I am disagreeing with you on a number of points on the matter and agreeing with others, as I have shown just above on #1 I don't think Warbikers are garbage either, in my codex they are probably one of if not THE best unit. I just think that compared to other factions bikers they are over priced, or that other factions bikers are all under priced. Something else I have said several times.
Why do I play orks? Because before this codex dropped they were a decent army that had some problems but they were a laugh and actually stood a chance against other codexs. Since 7th edition dropped though Orks have dropped to bottom tier and are firmly lodged there. I would love for my army to be good at CC again like it used to be, but right now its not.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/10/30 19:17:59
Dark Eldar:+8
Infantry: 8ppm Warrior
Bike: 16ppm Reaver
CSM: +7
Infantry: 13ppm CSM Bike: 20ppm CSM Bike
Orks: +12
Infantry: 6ppm Boy
Bike: 18ppm Warbiker
Now, to start with, a number of those bikes above come with special rules that increase their price. Furthermore, some give fewer benefits to the model so cost a bit less. Some give better weapons and some give better options, regardless this is the base costs.
So Ork Boyz start out as the CHEAPEST standard infantry choice but when you give that boy a bike his price TRIPLES. So lets start with Movement. Ork bikers gain the same movement bonus that every other biker gets (except eldar). He actually loses the bonus afforded to him by his "Ere We Go" Special rule in regards to the Waaagh (He can not turbo and assault). So no bonus to movement for this guy.
Shooting. This is probably the one area where an Ork gets a relatively big bonus compared to most other factions. he goes from a Pistol to a TL S5AP5 assault 3 Range 18 gun. That is a rather big boost. Most other bikers just get their same standard weapon and get it TL'd. HOWEVER! The Ork player gets zero options to upgrade those guns. He can not equip Grav weapons, flamers or Melta like a SM can, he can't spam S6 Range 36 Scat lasers like Eldar Can. Hell he can't change anything.
CC: An Ork gets the exact same bonuses by adding a bike as everyone else in Close combat, that is +1 Toughness and better armor. Now the argument could go along the lines that Orks pay more for this because they are good at CC (something I still contest they are not good at) But if we go by that logic, shouldn't Eldar/SMs have to pay more for the bonus to survivability because they are so tough to kill? How about them paying more to use those special weapons/heavy weapons because of their good BS and the fact that they are predominantly shooting armies? So really those two equal out in my book.
Extras: The only extra orks get for having bikes is that they get +1 to cover saves IF they turbo boost. This is a relatively useful skill. Especially when you team it with night fighting or pay out the nose to get Zhadsnark and get that skilled rider bonus for his squad. 2+ cover saves are nice for Orks (until they get to CC where they are supposedly good...and they die)
Of course other factions get bonuses to. Eldar most notably get a rather big boost just by being Eldar. JSJ and extra speed.
If you look at the rest of those factions the average cost of a Bike upgrade is a bit over 5ppm. So lets take it to the other end and say orks should have to pay 6ppm for their bike upgrade, wouldn't that make it more even?
So my conclusion is that for Orks the upgrade to a bike should be 6ppm, making Warbikers 12ppm. I am not sold on how to upgrade Nobz to bikers but I would gladly DOUBLE that cost to 12 and take it. What say you lot? Would that be a fair? do you have other suggestions? Whats your opinion on this matter in general.
Dark Eldar:+8
Infantry: 8ppm Warrior
Bike: 16ppm Reaver
CSM: +7
Infantry: 13ppm CSM Bike: 20ppm CSM Bike
Orks: +12
Infantry: 6ppm Boy
Bike: 18ppm Warbiker
Now, to start with, a number of those bikes above come with special rules that increase their price. Furthermore, some give fewer benefits to the model so cost a bit less. Some give better weapons and some give better options, regardless this is the base costs.
So Ork Boyz start out as the CHEAPEST standard infantry choice but when you give that boy a bike his price TRIPLES. So lets start with Movement. Ork bikers gain the same movement bonus that every other biker gets (except eldar). He actually loses the bonus afforded to him by his "Ere We Go" Special rule in regards to the Waaagh (He can not turbo and assault). So no bonus to movement for this guy.
Shooting. This is probably the one area where an Ork gets a relatively big bonus compared to most other factions. he goes from a Pistol to a TL S5AP5 assault 3 Range 18 gun. That is a rather big boost. Most other bikers just get their same standard weapon and get it TL'd. HOWEVER! The Ork player gets zero options to upgrade those guns. He can not equip Grav weapons, flamers or Melta like a SM can, he can't spam S6 Range 36 Scat lasers like Eldar Can. Hell he can't change anything.
CC: An Ork gets the exact same bonuses by adding a bike as everyone else in Close combat, that is +1 Toughness and better armor. Now the argument could go along the lines that Orks pay more for this because they are good at CC (something I still contest they are not good at) But if we go by that logic, shouldn't Eldar/SMs have to pay more for the bonus to survivability because they are so tough to kill? How about them paying more to use those special weapons/heavy weapons because of their good BS and the fact that they are predominantly shooting armies? So really those two equal out in my book.
Extras: The only extra orks get for having bikes is that they get +1 to cover saves IF they turbo boost. This is a relatively useful skill. Especially when you team it with night fighting or pay out the nose to get Zhadsnark and get that skilled rider bonus for his squad. 2+ cover saves are nice for Orks (until they get to CC where they are supposedly good...and they die)
Of course other factions get bonuses to. Eldar most notably get a rather big boost just by being Eldar. JSJ and extra speed.
If you look at the rest of those factions the average cost of a Bike upgrade is a bit over 5ppm. So lets take it to the other end and say orks should have to pay 6ppm for their bike upgrade, wouldn't that make it more even?
So my conclusion is that for Orks the upgrade to a bike should be 6ppm, making Warbikers 12ppm. I am not sold on how to upgrade Nobz to bikers but I would gladly DOUBLE that cost to 12 and take it. What say you lot? Would that be a fair? do you have other suggestions? Whats your opinion on this matter in general.
Easy... Orks' codex is meant to be crap
I would really hope there was a better reason behind the pricing of ork units and how the codex was written in general then this....though from what I have seen, especially from the FAQs, the 1st Ork Supplement, the 2nd Ork Supplement, the new Ork flyer....that is probably the case. NPC army
7000+ Points Death Skullz
4000 Points
+ 
+ 3000 Points "The Fiery Heart of the Emperor"
3000 Points "Bard's Booze Cruise" 
