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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Traditio wrote:
SempterMortis:

You did the math wrong.

The bike is a +8 ppm upgrade, not a +12 ppm upgrade.

An ork boy with 'eavy armor is 10 ppm.


I kept every model in that naked, I didn't add in ANY gear or buffs that had to be paid for. If you want I can upgrade every model as far as they can go and then upgrade to a bike, it won't do anything else and it won't change the facts presented here so far.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





SemperMortis wrote:I kept every model in that naked, I didn't add in ANY gear or buffs that had to be paid for. If you want I can upgrade every model as far as they can go and then upgrade to a bike, it won't do anything else and it won't change the facts presented here so far.


Warbikers have a 4+ save. So you're not paying 12 ppm for a bike. you're paying 4 ppm for 4+ armor and 8 ppm for the bike.

Yes, Eldar bikes magically change dire avengers from a 5+ to a 3+, but this is commonly admitted to be unfair.

Imho, warbikers don't cost enough points. Most bikes don't. Especially not the SM and Eldar bikes.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/31 04:51:17


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Traditio wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:I kept every model in that naked, I didn't add in ANY gear or buffs that had to be paid for. If you want I can upgrade every model as far as they can go and then upgrade to a bike, it won't do anything else and it won't change the facts presented here so far.


Warbikers have a 4+ save. So you're not paying 12 ppm for a bike. you're paying 4 ppm for 4+ armor and 8 ppm for the bike.

Yes, Eldar bikes magically change dire avengers from a 5+ to a 3+, but this is commonly admitted to be unfair.

Imho, warbikers don't cost enough points. Most bikes don't. Especially not the SM and Eldar bikes.


Except that in the actual Ork entry in the codex it spells out that the Ork Warbike confers a 4+ armor save. It is actually the only way to get decent armor on a Painboy for us.

But even if we go by your logic that we have to add an upgrade to the Boy (something we didn't do for any other faction) then lets do that, but keep in mind that Eavy armor is almost never used because it is considered to expensive for what little it does. if anything I would rate it as a 2ppm upgrade. Which would still leave orks with a 10ppm difference in price.

I will agree that ALL Bikes are under priced, but I think that Ork Warbikers are closer to the correct cost then the others. SM, Eldar and Necron bike/jetbikes are criminally under priced.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






Ork bikers are great. Their point cost is fine. Their $ cost is fkd up.
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





SemperMortis wrote:
 Traditio wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:I kept every model in that naked, I didn't add in ANY gear or buffs that had to be paid for. If you want I can upgrade every model as far as they can go and then upgrade to a bike, it won't do anything else and it won't change the facts presented here so far.


Warbikers have a 4+ save. So you're not paying 12 ppm for a bike. you're paying 4 ppm for 4+ armor and 8 ppm for the bike.

Yes, Eldar bikes magically change dire avengers from a 5+ to a 3+, but this is commonly admitted to be unfair.

Imho, warbikers don't cost enough points. Most bikes don't. Especially not the SM and Eldar bikes.


Except that in the actual Ork entry in the codex it spells out that the Ork Warbike confers a 4+ armor save. It is actually the only way to get decent armor on a Painboy for us.

But even if we go by your logic that we have to add an upgrade to the Boy (something we didn't do for any other faction) then lets do that, but keep in mind that Eavy armor is almost never used because it is considered to expensive for what little it does. if anything I would rate it as a 2ppm upgrade. Which would still leave orks with a 10ppm difference in price.

I will agree that ALL Bikes are under priced, but I think that Ork Warbikers are closer to the correct cost then the others. SM, Eldar and Necron bike/jetbikes are criminally under priced.


The fact that you personally would prefer for the 'eavy armor upgrade to cost 2 ppm doesn't magically make it 2 ppm.
   
Made in ru
!!Goffik Rocker!!






There's something horribly wrong with a game system when a model sitting on a bike is more safe than within an armored transport.
   
Made in il
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






SemperMortis wrote:
 Traditio wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:I kept every model in that naked, I didn't add in ANY gear or buffs that had to be paid for. If you want I can upgrade every model as far as they can go and then upgrade to a bike, it won't do anything else and it won't change the facts presented here so far.


Warbikers have a 4+ save. So you're not paying 12 ppm for a bike. you're paying 4 ppm for 4+ armor and 8 ppm for the bike.

Yes, Eldar bikes magically change dire avengers from a 5+ to a 3+, but this is commonly admitted to be unfair.

Imho, warbikers don't cost enough points. Most bikes don't. Especially not the SM and Eldar bikes.


Except that in the actual Ork entry in the codex it spells out that the Ork Warbike confers a 4+ armor save. It is actually the only way to get decent armor on a Painboy for us.

But even if we go by your logic that we have to add an upgrade to the Boy (something we didn't do for any other faction) then lets do that, but keep in mind that Eavy armor is almost never used because it is considered to expensive for what little it does. if anything I would rate it as a 2ppm upgrade. Which would still leave orks with a 10ppm difference in price.

I will agree that ALL Bikes are under priced, but I think that Ork Warbikers are closer to the correct cost then the others. SM, Eldar and Necron bike/jetbikes are criminally under priced.


Na, marine bikes are OK.
So are CSM bikes.
So are DEldar bikes.
Even necron bikes are fair, they just have insane upgrade options.

Or bikes should be 2 points less, so should the armor.

And eldar bikes... Let's not go to the "writers favorites" sinkhole...

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
Made in fi
Stalwart Tribune





 BoomWolf wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:

I will agree that ALL Bikes are under priced, but I think that Ork Warbikers are closer to the correct cost then the others. SM, Eldar and Necron bike/jetbikes are criminally under priced.


Na, marine bikes are OK.
So are CSM bikes.


Bikes are too good for their points (increased movement, relentless, +1T). They are far better than jump pack marines. Maybe if they would lose relentless... or maybe jump pack marines are overpriced

If you wish to grow wise, learn why brothers betray brothers. 
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan






 Draco wrote:
 BoomWolf wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:

I will agree that ALL Bikes are under priced, but I think that Ork Warbikers are closer to the correct cost then the others. SM, Eldar and Necron bike/jetbikes are criminally under priced.


Na, marine bikes are OK.
So are CSM bikes.


Bikes are too good for their points (increased movement, relentless, +1T). They are far better than jump pack marines. Maybe if they would lose relentless... or maybe jump pack marines are overpriced


A big benefit of Bikes over Jump Packs is having Jink as it gives another form of defense against weapons that would ignore their armor. Why Jump Packs can't jink is beyond me and other than Jump MCs I can't think of a situation off the top of my head where it would be too powerful.

"Hold my shoota, I'm goin in"
Armies (7th edition points)
7000+ Points Death Skullz
4000 Points
+ + 3000 Points "The Fiery Heart of the Emperor"
3500 Points "Void Kraken" Space Marines
3000 Points "Bard's Booze Cruise" 
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob




Crescent City Fl..

Or bikes should be 2 points less, so should the armor.

I was just thinking something like "Armour saves are for chumps"
just before I saw that. Makes me wonder. I'd feel just a little better about a 4 point drop and a 6+save. or even a 2 point drop and a 5+ save.
My opponent yesterday was at one point "crying" about all his grav guns being useless against my army.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Bikes are too good for their points (increased movement, relentless, +1T). They are far better than jump pack marines. Maybe if they would lose relentless... or maybe jump pack marines are overpriced


I'd be for Bikers droping Relentless, no downside for the Orks.
I really think the points balance is wrong all across 40K now.
If one SM is worth 3 Orks, which they more or less used to be, then over all they are too cheap now. There could be several ways to "fix" that with out a Ork points drop or a drastic SM points increase.
Regardless, Orks are just the victim of being the first codex released this edition and the direction changing a few codex releases later.

I'd defiantly like cheaper bikes with a worse save. at least as a starting point with the option to buy that good oll' 4+

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/31 12:13:31


The rewards of tolerance are treachery and betrayal.

Remember kids, Games Workshop needs you more than you need them.  
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Bikes losing relentless would be weird. Needing to be in park to fire the bolters mounted on the dash would be a poorly designed combat vehicle overall.

Not sure what Jump Packs need, but they definitely need something. Maybe a bump to initiative on HoW attacks or protection from Overwatch? Something to get more of that "death from above" kind of feel.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




Their high point supposedly over Bikes is that it can Deep Strike. It isn't the greatest benefit ever, but it actually matters for Sanguine Guard (still garbage), Vanguard, AND Raptors with their respective formations.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob




Crescent City Fl..

Bikes losing relentless would be weird. Needing to be in park to fire the bolters mounted on the dash would be a poorly designed combat vehicle overall.

I have to look but I don't think it would effect bolters very much at all not to mention they are twin linked.
But, it would effect the biker ability to assault after firing.
Depending on the particular biker.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jump packs also gain the ability to reroll their charge dice and Hammer of Wrath that turn.
I don't really think a lot of these other units can be accurately looked at and compared for balanced points given the other special rules they gain from formation, detachments and chapters and the like. ( I'm sure there is a large number of "like units" that I don't even know anything about as well.)

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/31 14:38:47


The rewards of tolerance are treachery and betrayal.

Remember kids, Games Workshop needs you more than you need them.  
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan





Denver, Colorado

Honestly, you're looking at it the wrong way.

Take a boy with a big shoota and eavy armor. That's a 15 point model.

For just 3 more points, that boy gains a twinlinked big shoota, a slugga and choppa, 12" movement, +1 toughness, and the ability to jink.

IMO, warbikers are an absolute steal.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/31 15:43:27


"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment." Words to live by. 
   
Made in us
Powerful Phoenix Lord





Dallas area, TX

 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Honestly, you're looking at it the wrong way.

Take a boy with a big shoota and eavy armor. That's a 15 point model.

For just 3 more points, that boy gains a twinlinked big shoota, a slugga and choppa, 12" movement, and the ability to jink.

IMO, warbikers are an absolute steal.

Bingo!
and the +1T as usual

And also, Eldar Jetbikes are not Dire Avengers, they are Gaurdians (9pts), so placing them on a bike is +8pts, not +4.
When compares to the above, Ork bikers are about spot on for abilities gained

-

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/10/31 15:10:08


   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




The main issue is Scatterlasers, Warp Spiders, and Tau with enough Markerlights will destroy footslogging Boyz. Tau is less of an issue but there is a case here of one army completely invalidating another.

At least Marines and Necrons have to get close to you.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Honestly, you're looking at it the wrong way.

Take a boy with a big shoota and eavy armor. That's a 15 point model.

For just 3 more points, that boy gains a twinlinked big shoota, a slugga and choppa, 12" movement, and the ability to jink.

IMO, warbikers are an absolute steal.


Eavy Armor, an upgrade that is universally considered too expensive for what it does.
Big Shootas, an upgrade that is universally considered too expensive/crappy for what it does.

But for 3 pts more we get a shorter ranged TL version of the Big Shoota and 12" movement and the ability to jink.

Like I have said, numerous times now, compared to the REST OF THE ORK CODEX warbikers are a great choice. Compared to other biker they aren't.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




How do you figure? Their durability isn't far off from other Bikers and they do far more damage on the charge compared to anyone else outside Chaos Bikers

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob




Crescent City Fl..

I think the problem with the Big shoota is that we don't get enough of them in any mob. My Friend was lecturing me after our game about, why didn't I stick those in my mobs. Comparing my units to his biker units. where 2 in 3 models can have a special weapon. The big shoota is a fantastic weapon when you can get enough of them.
I don't think the dakka gun on the warbikes range being shorter really matters when mostly they are used as power klaw delivery blobs. I for one don't rely on them for extended periods of shooting they are either stuck in or dead. If I want mobile shooting I use either war trakks or Dakka Jets. 30 Point wartrakks are a fantastic highly mobile unit, and they shoot at the full 36" range.
Maybe it's me but I'd love the option of buying armour saves for some models in a unit but not have to buy saves for every model. I'd like that in ever possible unit in the codex, Not counting MANZ, Those need something else, like Grots added as ablative wounds.

The rewards of tolerance are treachery and betrayal.

Remember kids, Games Workshop needs you more than you need them.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
How do you figure? Their durability isn't far off from other Bikers and they do far more damage on the charge compared to anyone else outside Chaos Bikers


I think I have pointed out this a few times but lets do it again I guess.

1st and most importantly SMs are 3+ armor compared to Orks 4+. Orks have no access to special weapons or basically anything beyond adding in a Nob who can take his standard issue PK.

Beyond that, Yes if the orks get the charge off they have 4attacks each at S4. Not bad, but really not that great, and if they don't get the charge or the CC lasts longer then 1 round guess what? 3 S3 attacks each..... And since they cost literally three times as much as boys they don't have a ton of models to swamp their target in those S4 and S3 attacks. Generally, (this is kind of sad) Warbikers are a shooting unit, not an assault unit. They can actually do more damage in the shooting phase then in the assault phase and that isn't saying much mind you.


 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






Not sure where you're getting the idea that big shootas are "universally considered to expensive/crappy for what it does". Point-for-point, a boy with a big shoota is more effective than one with a regular shoota at killing pretty much any infantry in the game. And I don't know why you'd be firing shoota boyz at anything but infantry.
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob




Crescent City Fl..

And I don't know why you'd be firing shoota boyz at anything but infantry.

I used to murder Rhinos with them. Haven't done that recently though.

The rewards of tolerance are treachery and betrayal.

Remember kids, Games Workshop needs you more than you need them.  
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Nazrak wrote:
Not sure where you're getting the idea that big shootas are "universally considered to expensive/crappy for what it does". Point-for-point, a boy with a big shoota is more effective than one with a regular shoota at killing pretty much any infantry in the game. And I don't know why you'd be firing shoota boyz at anything but infantry.


5pts for a S5 AP5 shot. A single shot mind you because at BS2 that means only 1 of the 3 shots will actually hit. Generally I don't run shoota boyz. Gaining a Shoota for the price of 1pt and losing my extra attack in CC is just not worth it to me.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




And one with 3 TL shots is just bad to you?

It puts out more damage than other standard Biker weapons and has a max effective range of 18" compared to the Windriders pathetic 12".

Scatterbikes exist but everyone already knows there's something off with them so...

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in us
Krazed Killa Kan





Denver, Colorado

Regardless of whether or not 'eavy armor is considered a bad upgrade (honestly, I rarely use it), it's not at all an unfair comparison. Same for big shootas.

Because when you take a space marine and give him a bike for+7 points, his armor save doesn't change, and his bolter just becomes twin linked. When you take a ork boy, and give him a warbike for +12 points, you're not accounting for the massive difference in boosting the armor or the MASSIVE increase to shooting.

If, say, warbikes only gave a 6+ armor save and a twin linked slugga, I'd agree they are overpriced. But because they have a baked-in armor save and far improved gun, I think comparing them to a naked boy is inaccurate.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/31 15:53:12


"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment." Words to live by. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Kap'n Krump wrote:
Regardless of whether or not 'eavy armor is considered a bad upgrade (honestly, I rarely use it), it's not at all an unfair comparison. Same for big shootas.

Because when you take a space marine and give him a bike for+7 points, his armor save doesn't change, and his bolter just becomes twin linked. When you take a ork boy, and give him a warbike for +12 points, you're not accounting for the massive difference in boosting the armor or the MASSIVE increase to shooting.

If, say, warbikes only gave a 6+ armor save and a twin linked slugga, I'd agree they are overpriced. But because they have a baked-in armor save and far improved gun, I think comparing them to a naked boy is inaccurate.



True enough to a degree. If those two items were priced correctly and the price of the bike was reduced as well then it would be acceptable. I would argue that Eavy armor is a 2pt upgrade and a Big Shoota should really be a 2-3pt upgrade as well. Its not that good.

 Tomsug wrote:
Semper krumps under the radar

 
   
Made in ca
Angelic Adepta Sororitas




earth

I'd be guessing the cost for the warbike takes into account the 4pts for 4+ armor.

4pts for 4+ armor.. lol so bad.

IG gets 4+ armor for 10 guys for 15pts. that's 1.5pts per guy. I know they're T3 but still.
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






 drunken0elf wrote:
I'd be guessing the cost for the warbike takes into account the 4pts for 4+ armor.

4pts for 4+ armor.. lol so bad.

IG gets 4+ armor for 10 guys for 15pts. that's 1.5pts per guy. I know they're T3 but still.


While I agree eavy armour's overcosted, the Orks get a lot more out of upgrading to a 4+ than guard do. It's a 150% increase in their chance of survival (rather than 50%), and you're getting that boost on a 6-7pt model rather than a 5pt one.

Tbh I'd be happy for shoota boyz to stay at 6pts and 3 for eavy armour. If you make EA too cheap, it becomes an auto-take, and then you're fundamentally altering the character of Orks as an army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Back on topic though, I think ork bikes are fine as they are.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/31 17:26:17


 
   
Made in ca
Angelic Adepta Sororitas




earth

 Nazrak wrote:
 drunken0elf wrote:
I'd be guessing the cost for the warbike takes into account the 4pts for 4+ armor.

4pts for 4+ armor.. lol so bad.

IG gets 4+ armor for 10 guys for 15pts. that's 1.5pts per guy. I know they're T3 but still.


While I agree eavy armour's overcosted, the Orks get a lot more out of upgrading to a 4+ than guard do. It's a 150% increase in their chance of survival (rather than 50%), and you're getting that boost on a 6-7pt model rather than a 5pt one.

Tbh I'd be happy for shoota boyz to stay at 6pts and 3 for eavy armour. If you make EA too cheap, it becomes an auto-take, and then you're fundamentally altering the character of Orks as an army.


Well yeah, you got a good point there. Just showing that 4pts for EA is too much. 3 sounds reasonable.

And let's not talk about the IG commander paying 5pts for his...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/10/31 17:30:55


 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut






 drunken0elf wrote:
 Nazrak wrote:
 drunken0elf wrote:
I'd be guessing the cost for the warbike takes into account the 4pts for 4+ armor.

4pts for 4+ armor.. lol so bad.

IG gets 4+ armor for 10 guys for 15pts. that's 1.5pts per guy. I know they're T3 but still.


While I agree eavy armour's overcosted, the Orks get a lot more out of upgrading to a 4+ than guard do. It's a 150% increase in their chance of survival (rather than 50%), and you're getting that boost on a 6-7pt model rather than a 5pt one.

Tbh I'd be happy for shoota boyz to stay at 6pts and 3 for eavy armour. If you make EA too cheap, it becomes an auto-take, and then you're fundamentally altering the character of Orks as an army.


Well yeah, you got a good point there. Just showing that 4pts for EA is too much. 3 sounds reasonable.

And let's not talk about the IG commander paying 10pts for his...

Yeah, it seems weird that boyz, nobz and warbosses all pay the same points for EA.
   
 
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