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So after taking a long hiatus from the game I am considering starting up again in 30k. I've always loved the grinding, overpowering method in which the legions make war so it's the perfect setting for me really. It would be great if you all could help me out giving me some information on how the various legions play and any particularly effective army types.

I am trying to decide on which legion to run after taking a look through 4chan's 30k tactics page. I'm decided on a traitor faction but not yet which. Straight off the bat the main contenders are Sons of Horus, World Eaters, Iron Warriors and Word Bearers.
I'm really looking to get one of the primarchs into my list but are they still viable sub 2500 points? Or are they just overcosted bullet magnets?
My favorite primarch is Horus (closely followed by Angron) but the SoH at a glance appear tricky to play effectively with a lot of their infantry and special units overcosted for what they do. They also don't seem all that flexible while Horus himself costs a hell of a lot.

The World Eaters seem nice with some great hq options and brutal cc potential however again they seem predictable-charge at the enemy and attempt to out melee them with superior close combat infantry. I also love their color scheme and the sheer rage and brutality with which they attack their enemies. Also Angron seems like the most counterable of all the Primarchs with a relatively poor armour and inv save+the tendency to slaughter everything in combat with him leaving himself vulnerable to shooting. The whole army seems suited more towards non-marine killing. The red butchers for instance while costing a lot match up poorly against terminators and simply aren't as flexible.

The Iron Warriors interest me, their army roster seems very rich while still providing masses of reliable firepower and shrugging off casualties as though they were nothing. Shrapnel bolts seem pretty devestating for a cost effective trade of switching ap 4 out to cause pinning holding up Melee armies, allowing you to go cheap on heavy support and divert points into DeathStars which from what I've seen appear to excel in 30k. Perturabo himself is a very interesting primarch to me, while not my favorite initially he does have some cool rules, functioning like a walking land raider with awesome armour, having done the math hammer he is also capable of taking out most other primarchs in a 1v1 including angron, so he's no slouch. I like his functionality within deathstar squads as well, both as a part of an iron circle maniple which I love the idea of and appears to kick some serious ass and deep striking in with tyrant siege terminators who also seem devastating.

Finally Word Bearers, I know nothing about the rules to is legion other than what I have read on 4chan but they do seem very interesting, essentially 30k CSM? While both Lorgar and Lorgar transfigured don't excite me at all other HQ options like Erebus do who with psychic buffing can reach near primarch levels of ass-kickery. (Also very much looking forward to Argel Tal). I also like their heavy psychic list and dark channeling mechanic. The Gal Vorbak seem devastating and have awesome models. They do seem to have the flexibility that the world eaters and sons of Horus lack, excelling both in close combat while buffing each other with psychic abilities and maintaining pretty good firepower.

Out of them all I would say on game mechanics alone I'm swaying towards Iron warriors, my favourite models most definitely belong to the SoH but the World Eaters and Word Bearers are also in close contention. Anyone have anything that could help me make up my mind, tips for how to play these armies or any particularly effective combos/strategies?


P.S sorry for long post

And what about Death Guard?

Not really interested in the death guard. Their special units don't excite me and I'm not a fan of the appearance/colour scheme
Plus mortarion is my least favorite traitor primarch. Can't respect him ever since K.D. Graffiti'd his vitals :(

I think one's choice of legion should be where playstyle, paint scheme, miniatures, and fluff meet. People tend to play 30K as a pseudo-historical game, in which proper colors, insignia, etc. matter. There's still some flexibility, but generally a given Legion will tend to look a certain way, unlike 40K where you can invent the Blue Meanies chapter and pick whatever rules you want for them from game to game. So it tends to matter more that you like and are fully engaged with the colors, fluff, etc. because you're kinda stuck with them after you start the project.

From a rules standpoint, the thing to keep in mind is that all legions share the same basic army list. Their special rules and units matter, but every legion is still capable in just about every role. What's more, that shared army list is full of answers. You seem to be focused on death stars, which are fine until someone plops down a Typhon or some other counter, and suddenly your game has changed. So I think it's best not to come at it from a 40K-styled killer combo approach so much as choosing a general playstyle that works for you.

Among the legions you listed, I can only really speak to WE. They're a very straightforward legion, but their CC prowess has become truly fearsome with the latest round of updates. WE get much more mileage out of tacticals than any other legion. You're also selling Red Butchers short...they are very good. Yes, there are matchups that are better for them than others, but that goes for anything, and they will kill a lot of stuff. And while Angron has his weaknesses, just embedding in a unit of tacticals can mitigate them.

 gorgon wrote:
I think one's choice of legion should be where playstyle, paint scheme, miniatures, and fluff meet. People tend to play 30K as a pseudo-historical game, in which proper colors, insignia, etc. matter. There's still some flexibility, but generally a given Legion will tend to look a certain way, unlike 40K where you can invent the Blue Meanies chapter and pick whatever rules you want for them from game to game. So it tends to matter more that you like and are fully engaged with the colors, fluff, etc. because you're kinda stuck with them after you start the project.

From a rules standpoint, the thing to keep in mind is that all legions share the same basic army list. Their special rules and units matter, but every legion is still capable in just about every role. What's more, that shared army list is full of answers. You seem to be focused on death stars, which are fine until someone plops down a Typhon or some other counter, and suddenly your game has changed. So I think it's best not to come at it from a 40K-styled killer combo approach so much as choosing a general playstyle that works for you.

Among the legions you listed, I can only really speak to WE. They're a very straightforward legion, but their CC prowess has become truly fearsome with the latest round of updates. WE get much more mileage out of tacticals than any other legion. You're also selling Red Butchers short...they are very good. Yes, there are matchups that are better for them than others, but that goes for anything, and they will kill a lot of stuff. And while Angron has his weaknesses, just embedding in a unit of tacticals can mitigate them.

My thanks for the input, I do love the WE colour scheme and fluff (primarily since they give those arrogant "executioners" and their puppy king a pounding), I see the merits in close combat, extra strength, extra attacks far outclassing regular marines but doesn't this in itself limit the flexibility. There seems to be a hellava lot of big weapons in 30k. After a quick read through the Iron warriors roster it looks like they would shred a WE force, sit back with heavy tanks bombarding armour and throwing pie plates all over the place, all heavy weapon squads spraying shrapnel bolts to pin foot sloggers, iron havocs and siege terminators to crack transports and reduce cover saves then waves of entrenched bolster fire to finish off the rest. Now it may be naive of me to assume that a WE force is instantly going to go full charge mode and I'm assuming they can field their own array of heavy weapons and put on a decent showing in the shooting phase but even then would a more balanced list compete effectively against a dedicated shooting list like that? Supported by pert and his iron circle to wipe anyone who makes it through the blitzkrieg considering how hideously difficult they appear to be to put down

And yes I may have been a bit disingenuous with the red butchers rereading the sheer brutality of what they can do to MEQ's. I wouldn't want them in my back lines for sure and their models and fluff is fantastic.

Btw doesn't fielding a primarch by nature of their high points cost somewhat force you to use a death star set up? I suppose I'm carrying across the preconceptions from the 40k meta and applying it to 30k

BaconUprising wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
I think one's choice of legion should be where playstyle, paint scheme, miniatures, and fluff meet. People tend to play 30K as a pseudo-historical game, in which proper colors, insignia, etc. matter. There's still some flexibility, but generally a given Legion will tend to look a certain way, unlike 40K where you can invent the Blue Meanies chapter and pick whatever rules you want for them from game to game. So it tends to matter more that you like and are fully engaged with the colors, fluff, etc. because you're kinda stuck with them after you start the project.

From a rules standpoint, the thing to keep in mind is that all legions share the same basic army list. Their special rules and units matter, but every legion is still capable in just about every role. What's more, that shared army list is full of answers. You seem to be focused on death stars, which are fine until someone plops down a Typhon or some other counter, and suddenly your game has changed. So I think it's best not to come at it from a 40K-styled killer combo approach so much as choosing a general playstyle that works for you.

Among the legions you listed, I can only really speak to WE. They're a very straightforward legion, but their CC prowess has become truly fearsome with the latest round of updates. WE get much more mileage out of tacticals than any other legion. You're also selling Red Butchers short...they are very good. Yes, there are matchups that are better for them than others, but that goes for anything, and they will kill a lot of stuff. And while Angron has his weaknesses, just embedding in a unit of tacticals can mitigate them.

My thanks for the input, I do love the WE colour scheme and fluff (primarily since they give those arrogant "executioners" and their puppy king a pounding), I see the merits in close combat, extra strength, extra attacks far outclassing regular marines but doesn't this in itself limit the flexibility. There seems to be a hellava lot of big weapons in 30k. After a quick read through the Iron warriors roster it looks like they would shred a WE force, sit back with heavy tanks bombarding armour and throwing pie plates all over the place, all heavy weapon squads spraying shrapnel bolts to pin foot sloggers, iron havocs and siege terminators to crack transports and reduce cover saves then waves of entrenched bolster fire to finish off the rest. Now it may be naive of me to assume that a WE force is instantly going to go full charge mode and I'm assuming they can field their own array of heavy weapons and put on a decent showing in the shooting phase but even then would a more balanced list compete effectively against a dedicated shooting list like that? Supported by pert and his iron circle to wipe anyone who makes it through the blitzkrieg considering how hideously difficult they appear to be to put down

And yes I may have been a bit disingenuous with the red butchers rereading the sheer brutality of what they can do to MEQ's. I wouldn't want them in my back lines for sure and their models and fluff is fantastic.

Btw doesn't fielding a primarch by nature of their high points cost somewhat force you to use a death star set up? I suppose I'm carrying across the preconceptions from the 40k meta and applying it to 30k

If you put those World Eaters in dread-claw drop pods and/or spartans/land raiders, most of that shooting doesn't matter and you'll get your guys into the fight relatively unscathed.

What better way to deploy chain axe wielding mad-men than to fire them at the enemy from space?

Hmm not that I'm disagreeing with you since I don't know the variability of that strategy in this meta. But don't Spartans get wrecked by haywire? And making them sufficiently survivable to as to deliver your Killy squads in makes them so expensive you can't afford more than 1-2? If so you're forgoing a lot of infantry points into a potentially risky unit that can be killed. Also are pods really reliable enough for a full on alpha strike? Especially if you're ready to blow them apart on entry


I mean I know providing a solid counter to something doesn't make it not viable but it seems like a relatively easy to counter strategy that could be really hard to recover from especially with a foot slogging army
Also wouldn't a mechanicum army/detachment eat Spartan spam alive with gravitation?

It does feel like you're approaching this with a bit too much of the 40k mentality at the moment. If you try and compare which Legion is the most effective on the table, you'll end up going round in circles - they're all pretty well balanced, they just have certain preferences and units that work better with their Legion rules. You can certainly build a Deathstar, for example, but the lack of psychics means they won't be nearly as surviveable as they are in 40k.

Your description of Iron Warriors above is interesting. A force like you describe would certainly be scary, but also cost 4/5000 points. Most games you're playing are at 2500/3000, where Perturabo and the Iron Circle could easily come to half your army's points value - and it's still totally possible to kill them!

I also wouldn't rely on the Primarchs to be they key to building the army - they're great to have and play with, but in smaller games they're not as good value. As well as being bullet magnets, a lot of their abilities buff their legion, so you get better value the more Infantry you have.

Because, as mentioned, you're going to be painting a lot of them, I'd choose a Legion based on fluff and a general idea of how you want the army to function, and THEN figure out an effective list once you've narrowed it down.

From your posts, I'd suggest that Iron Warriors seem to be the one you're most enthusiastic about. If you want to build surviveable, powerful units, they have some good ones, and if you want to be flexible, they work well as an armoured shooting army, but also well with massed infantry.

 ArbitorIan wrote:
It does feel like you're approaching this with a bit too much of the 40k mentality at the moment. If you try and compare which Legion is the most effective on the table, you'll end up going round in circles - they're all pretty well balanced, they just have certain preferences and units that work better with their Legion rules. You can certainly build a Deathstar, for example, but the lack of psychics means they won't be nearly as surviveable as they are in 40k.

Your description of Iron Warriors above is interesting. A force like you describe would certainly be scary, but also cost 4/5000 points. Most games you're playing are at 2500/3000, where Perturabo and the Iron Circle could easily come to half your army's points value - and it's still totally possible to kill them!

I also wouldn't rely on the Primarchs to be they key to building the army - they're great to have and play with, but in smaller games they're not as good value. As well as being bullet magnets, a lot of their abilities buff their legion, so you get better value the more Infantry you have.

Because, as mentioned, you're going to be painting a lot of them, I'd choose a Legion based on fluff and a general idea of how you want the army to function, and THEN figure out an effective list once you've narrowed it down.

From your posts, I'd suggest that Iron Warriors seem to be the one you're most enthusiastic about. If you want to build surviveable, powerful units, they have some good ones, and if you want to be flexible, they work well as an armoured shooting army, but also well with massed infantry.

Thanks the for the comment, and I agree completely. It's really hard to switch off from 40k when the game seems at a first look so similar.
I'm really looking to get a primarch into my force, which I realize is somewhat ironic since I appear to be trying to make an relatively competitive list and I'm assuming most primarchs just aren't.
And while I do like iron warriors play style their actually the one I'm the least enthusiastic about since their so....boring...they just seem very strong to be. Although as you say in smaller point games I'm assuming that synergy and effectiveness does decrease

Anyway this thread has certainly been educational. I'll probably re-read the fluff for WB, IW and WE then look at them with fresh eyes. As much as I love the Sons of Horus and their primarch I just don't know if I could make them work. Also there's a good chance when the thousand sons are released I'll be excited by them since their fluff is so amazing.

IW are supposed to have solid assault troops. They need someone to charge into the breach, right? So if you wanted to do a combined arms force, it'd be a way of doing them fluffily but different.

IW aren't going to get all the bonuses that legions like WE, BA, EC, etc. get in close combat, but I'm sure you can figure out a way to add some more aggressive elements and make it more interesting for yourself. Assault squads got a ton cheaper in the new army list book. Breachers kinda got their points moved around, but are still solid.