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Some implants don't make sense, like secondary heart, fused rib cage or omophagea and the whole concept of gene-seed is silly. It is much more logical just to genetic engineer the existing human genom instead of having a space marin frankenstein.

What is your opinion?

They all serve a purpose in the lore.

For example the second heart allows them to push more oxygen around the body, and if one fails the other they can keep fighting. The fuses rib cage created a bone breast plate under their flesh, preventing small blades from stabbing between the ribs.

Think of gene seed like a running database of test info. Keeps good info gets rid of bad.

Also the gene seed effects the genome, that's ones of its functions, it's alters their DNA to make it so their body is able to accept the implants. Can't just go shoving upgrades into an in altered human body, it will reject it and try to get rid of the foreign objects. The gene seed alters the DNA to make the body accept it and treat it as part of its own.

 Backspacehacker wrote:
They all serve a purpose in the lore.

For example the second heart allows them to push more oxygen around the body, and if one fails the other they can keep fighting. The fuses rib cage created a bone breast plate under their flesh, preventing small blades from stabbing between the ribs.

Think of gene seed like a running database of test info. Keeps good info gets rid of bad.

Also the gene seed effects the genome, that's ones of its functions, it's alters their DNA to make it so their body is able to accept the implants. Can't just go shoving upgrades into an in altered human body, it will reject it and try to get rid of the foreign objects. The gene seed alters the DNA to make the body accept it and treat it as part of its own.

I think the question is more in regards to why do they implant existing humans with these implants, rather than just genetically engineer them in a tank so they're born that way, though I'm not sure.

But a heart has nothing to do whit oxygen level in blood, and if he lose too much blood (which is the main couse of Cardiac arrest in space marines I assume) the heart will stop working and he dies, not even a 100 hearts will help him.

In a fused rib cage lungs cannot expand, and it is very hard to breathe.

I am just saying with genetic engineering the geen seed becomes pointlessl. With just modifying the genome you can have a far superior marine. That is why the Primarchs are much better than space marines.

Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:
I think the question is more in regards to why do they implant existing humans with these implants, rather than just genetically engineer them in a tank so they're born that way, though I'm not sure.

I does have the benefit of ensuring that you get the toughest/most fearsome/most capable recruits possible - since they've gone through the various initiation trials prior to being selected for implantation.

Being selected as an Astartes is about more than just being a genetically engineered killing machine - you have to be worthy of the gene heritage of the Primarch.

KJ wrote:
But a heart has nothing to do whit oxygen level in blood, and if he lose too much blood (which is the main couse of Cardiac arrest in space marines I assume) the heart will stop working and he dies, not even a 100 hearts will help him.

In a fused rib cage lungs cannot expand, and it is very hard to breathe.

I am just saying with genetic engineering the geen seed becomes pointlessl. With just modifying the genome you can have a far superior marine. That is why the Primarchs are much better than space marines.

Primarchs are far better than Space Marines because the Emperor and a team of the best scientists of Terra spent years on each and everyone of them, imbued with the Emperor's own genom, even going as far as using Warp sorcery to create demigods. It was so demanding that it was stated that the process could never be replicated again. It's not only the broad choice of methods that made them so powerful, it was the utmost care, the maximum application, a unique process, the individual crafting of each strand of DNA that made such a result possible. You wouldn't be able to ensure even a fraction of that while doing it en masse to create the Legions.

KJ wrote:
But a heart has nothing to do whit oxygen level in blood, and if he lose too much blood (which is the main couse of Cardiac arrest in space marines I assume) the heart will stop working and he dies, not even a 100 hearts will help him.

In a fused rib cage lungs cannot expand, and it is very hard to breathe.

I am just saying with genetic engineering the geen seed becomes pointlessl. With just modifying the genome you can have a far superior marine. That is why the Primarchs are much better than space marines.

Not in the blood, but thought out the body, additionally they have 2 sets of lungs as well.

The reason they do not do genetic engineering is becuase space marines can't pass on their DNa like we do, that's why the gene seed exists. If you were to try and make it so these things naturally occurred, it would take decades for a space marine to go from boy to man and ready to fight. With the gene seed you plug it into able body men, and it does the rest of the work, growing and changing them faster then it would take to breed them.

Additionally, this leads to the main reason space marines can't reproduce, and my head canon as to why there are no female space marines, if they could, that would I play they could survive on their own, and eventually replace humanity, that's not their job, that's not what the emperor wanted.

Gene seed does just what it says it does, it's a seed, put in into a warrior and they turn into a space marine, pull it out when they die and put it in a new one.

Also, messing with genetic is a BIG NO NO. See emperors children as to why.

They all enhance the marines combat capability in some form or a other. From being heavily reinforced to vital organs protection.

Ability to breath near poison, drink poison and survive leathal wounds to a regular human.

There meant to be finest soldiers you can mass produce.

Only one up is the custodius and there not in fluff suitable for the shear mass of numbers like marines.

I think it is important space marines have a human origin to give them context to what they are defending.

The reason Space Marines are made via implants rather than direct genetic manipulation is due to one of the pieces of dogma that the Imperium adheres to.

One of their core tenets is veneration of 'the holy human form'. I haven't read much into the background of this, but I'm sure there are solid fluff reasons for that (like the Men of Iron and fear of AIs).

If anything deviates too far from 'the holy human form', it is deemed a mutant and pays a painfully short visit to the Inquisition. Abhumans like Ogryns and Ratlings are accepted as being 'close enough'.

The making of a Space Marine skirts neatly around that. Technically, they're still 100% human genetically speaking. Their DNA is unaltered. It is the biological implants that changes their physiology, rather than any genetic tampering.

I think it's something to do with the Emperor wanting his supersoldiers to retain a connection to humanity. It was supposed to be the Imperium of Man after all, not the Imperium of Post-Human Genetically Engineered Supersoldiers (although you could argue that the results are the same either way).

It doesn't make any sense, its completly unrealistic and fundamently pointless, but its cool so suspention of disbelief for the win.

Ynneadwraith wrote:
The reason Space Marines are made via implants rather than direct genetic manipulation is due to one of the pieces of dogma that the Imperium adheres to.

One of their core tenets is veneration of 'the holy human form'. I haven't read much into the background of this, but I'm sure there are solid fluff reasons for that (like the Men of Iron and fear of AIs).

If anything deviates too far from 'the holy human form', it is deemed a mutant and pays a painfully short visit to the Inquisition. Abhumans like Ogryns and Ratlings are accepted as being 'close enough'.

The making of a Space Marine skirts neatly around that. Technically, they're still 100% human genetically speaking. Their DNA is unaltered. It is the biological implants that changes their physiology, rather than any genetic tampering.

I think it's something to do with the Emperor wanting his supersoldiers to retain a connection to humanity. It was supposed to be the Imperium of Man after all, not the Imperium of Post-Human Genetically Engineered Supersoldiers (although you could argue that the results are the same either way).

Also any 40k gene engineering is pretty hit and miss when it comes down to it. You could make a super soldier. or just mutant number 125737484

30k was more advanced, they had better Tech and understanding.

 Backspacehacker wrote:


they have 2 sets of lungs as well.

No, they have a THIRD lung, not a second pair. The third lung pre-filters things like toxins out of the breathing mix among other tasks.

They've NEVER had two pairs of lungs.

To be fair, the lore says the ribcage is a mass of interlocking plates, not one single bone. It could very well move.

On the other end of the spectrum, Space Marine bodies are wider and thicker than human bodies. As such, the rib cage might not need to move to accommodate the expansion and contraction of the lungs.

Its worth pointing out.

That geneseed. In 40k
They know how to impant, use, grow and make a space marine.

They do not know how its made as from scratch.
Only ones being emparor and maybe fabiud bile who properly understands it.

Any genetic modifications done to make a non marine super soldier would be frought with many failers and sub standead results before a sucess.

But a heart has nothing to do whit oxygen level in blood, and if he lose too much blood (which is the main couse of Cardiac arrest in space marines I assume) the heart will stop working and he dies, not even a 100 hearts will help him.

I'd like to point out that Space Marines have an implant that almost auto-clots blood so they almost never bleed out.

Secondly, I think you are reading way too much into this and accept the fact that it's just rule of cool. It's just the story.

Genetic engineering only gets you so far.

You can pretty easily make a lifeforms with a bigger heart. Creating one with 2 hearts, with redundant plumbing so either can function, if going to be a lot more difficult.

You can make a lifeform with much denser bones, but you can't get one to grow ribs made of titanium.

Implants probably represent some sort of cheapening of the technology, so it can be mass produced.

Implants also give you control, on who you implant. If you create a bunch of genetically engineered supermen, you might end up with a mutiny on your hands.

Genetically engineered super warriors (like the Primarchs)? What could possibly go wrong?

epronovost wrote:
It doesn't make any sense, its completly unrealistic and fundamently pointless, but its cool so suspention of disbelief for the win.

Some of the implants very much serve a point, such as the Lyman's Ear preventing a Marine from experiencing motion sickness, or the Sus-an Membrane being able to keep Marines alive for many years so that they can be recovered and revived.

Others like the Betcher's Gland are more questionable. Overall though, I'm pretty sure 38,000 years into the future will solve a lot of the problems present day scientists would have developing such implants.

G.A

Ynneadwraith wrote:
The reason Space Marines are made via implants rather than direct genetic manipulation is due to one of the pieces of dogma that the Imperium adheres to.

One of their core tenets is veneration of 'the holy human form'. I haven't read much into the background of this, but I'm sure there are solid fluff reasons for that (like the Men of Iron and fear of AIs).

If anything deviates too far from 'the holy human form', it is deemed a mutant and pays a painfully short visit to the Inquisition. Abhumans like Ogryns and Ratlings are accepted as being 'close enough'.

The making of a Space Marine skirts neatly around that. Technically, they're still 100% human genetically speaking. Their DNA is unaltered. It is the biological implants that changes their physiology, rather than any genetic tampering.

I think it's something to do with the Emperor wanting his supersoldiers to retain a connection to humanity. It was supposed to be the Imperium of Man after all, not the Imperium of Post-Human Genetically Engineered Supersoldiers (although you could argue that the results are the same either way).

Bingo.

Lord Damocles wrote:

Solar-powered_chainsword wrote:
I think the question is more in regards to why do they implant existing humans with these implants, rather than just genetically engineer them in a tank so they're born that way, though I'm not sure.

I does have the benefit of ensuring that you get the toughest/most fearsome/most capable recruits possible - since they've gone through the various initiation trials prior to being selected for implantation.

Being selected as an Astartes is about more than just being a genetically engineered killing machine - you have to be worthy of the gene heritage of the Primarch.

In deliverance lost, those created by Corax using the original primarch project data are much stronger and faster than those created normally. This includes those who had gone through very limited initiation who may not have survived to make it as a marine.

Ynneadwraith wrote:The reason Space Marines are made via implants rather than direct genetic manipulation is due to one of the pieces of dogma that the Imperium adheres to.

One of their core tenets is veneration of 'the holy human form'. I haven't read much into the background of this, but I'm sure there are solid fluff reasons for that (like the Men of Iron and fear of AIs).

If anything deviates too far from 'the holy human form', it is deemed a mutant and pays a painfully short visit to the Inquisition. Abhumans like Ogryns and Ratlings are accepted as being 'close enough'.

The making of a Space Marine skirts neatly around that. Technically, they're still 100% human genetically speaking. Their DNA is unaltered. It is the biological implants that changes their physiology, rather than any genetic tampering.

I think it's something to do with the Emperor wanting his supersoldiers to retain a connection to humanity. It was supposed to be the Imperium of Man after all, not the Imperium of Post-Human Genetically Engineered Supersoldiers (although you could argue that the results are the same either way).

It has been stated that the Emperor didn't want the space marines to be an evolution of humanity, he wanted them to be humanities defenders so that normal people would not have to fight. This is why he enhanced existing humans, rather than creating them from scratch. He wanted them to understand what it was they were fighting for, rather than having no experience of humanity pre-enhancement.

As other have stated, it is more of a religious practice.
Genetically modified beings are not pure and must be purged. Only the holy human form is acceptable, but altering that form after puberty is apparently ok.
It also probably has something to do with no knowing how to make beings "from scratch" by growing them in test-tubes.

 Galef wrote:
As other have stated, it is more of a religious practice.
Genetically modified beings are not pure and must be purged. Only the holy human form is acceptable, but altering that form after puberty is apparently ok.
It also probably has something to do with no knowing how to make beings "from scratch" by growing them in test-tubes.

I don't think it has as much to with modified beings not being pure. The Primarchs aren't pure humans, hell the emperor isn't

 TheLumberJack wrote:

 Galef wrote:
As other have stated, it is more of a religious practice.
Genetically modified beings are not pure and must be purged. Only the holy human form is acceptable, but altering that form after puberty is apparently ok.
It also probably has something to do with no knowing how to make beings "from scratch" by growing them in test-tubes.

I don't think it has as much to with modified beings not being pure. The Primarchs aren't pure humans, hell the emperor isn't

That's conveniently overlooked by the Imperial faith. Refreshingly illogical, like all the best dogmas...

 TheLumberJack wrote:

 Galef wrote:
As other have stated, it is more of a religious practice.
Genetically modified beings are not pure and must be purged. Only the holy human form is acceptable, but altering that form after puberty is apparently ok.
It also probably has something to do with no knowing how to make beings "from scratch" by growing them in test-tubes.

I don't think it has as much to with modified beings not being pure. The Primarchs aren't pure humans, hell the emperor isn't

No he is pure human, just pure warp charged bad ass human.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:

But a heart has nothing to do whit oxygen level in blood, and if he lose too much blood (which is the main couse of Cardiac arrest in space marines I assume) the heart will stop working and he dies, not even a 100 hearts will help him.

I'd like to point out that Space Marines have an implant that almost auto-clots blood so they almost never bleed out.

Secondly, I think you are reading way too much into this and accept the fact that it's just rule of cool. It's just the story.

Its gonna take a freaky chaos, or dark eldar weapon to make a marine bleed out without healing.
That or some crazy assassins poison.

But unless your not the a above. Bleed out is very rare.

 TheLumberJack wrote:

 Galef wrote:
As other have stated, it is more of a religious practice.
Genetically modified beings are not pure and must be purged. Only the holy human form is acceptable, but altering that form after puberty is apparently ok.
It also probably has something to do with no knowing how to make beings "from scratch" by growing them in test-tubes.

I don't think it has as much to with modified beings not being pure. The Primarchs aren't pure humans, hell the emperor isn't

But they look human, albeit quite large. They have all the right proportions, and no extra appendages sticking out.
Even Magnus, the most "abnormal" of the primarchs, is still a rather large human with one eye and red skin.

Compare them to your average chaos mutant, who tend to be misshapen with unusual growths growing in odd places.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 TheLumberJack wrote:

 Galef wrote:
As other have stated, it is more of a religious practice.
Genetically modified beings are not pure and must be purged. Only the holy human form is acceptable, but altering that form after puberty is apparently ok.
It also probably has something to do with no knowing how to make beings "from scratch" by growing them in test-tubes.

I don't think it has as much to with modified beings not being pure. The Primarchs aren't pure humans, hell the emperor isn't

But they look human, albeit quite large. They have all the right proportions, and no extra appendages sticking out.
Even Magnus, the most "abnormal" of the primarchs, is still a rather large human with one eye and red skin.

Compare them to your average chaos mutant, who tend to be misshapen with unusual growths growing in odd places.

Well you also have the salamanders who's skin is black as ash, and the something dragons it was a second founding chapter, they actually grow horns and spikes from their body becuase of fethed up gene seed, there is also the space sharks who are narly as hell looking.

The fantasy Flight 40k rule books have a lot of interesting information on the geneseeds and the various implants in them. I think I read a bit about it in their Deathwatch core book. Try to find a PDF of those and give them a look if you cannot pick up the book at your local store. It's all dead product in feb anyway.

 Backspacehacker wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 TheLumberJack wrote:

 Galef wrote:
As other have stated, it is more of a religious practice.
Genetically modified beings are not pure and must be purged. Only the holy human form is acceptable, but altering that form after puberty is apparently ok.
It also probably has something to do with no knowing how to make beings "from scratch" by growing them in test-tubes.

I don't think it has as much to with modified beings not being pure. The Primarchs aren't pure humans, hell the emperor isn't

But they look human, albeit quite large. They have all the right proportions, and no extra appendages sticking out.
Even Magnus, the most "abnormal" of the primarchs, is still a rather large human with one eye and red skin.

Compare them to your average chaos mutant, who tend to be misshapen with unusual growths growing in odd places.

Well you also have the salamanders who's skin is black as ash, and the something dragons it was a second founding chapter, they actually grow horns and spikes from their body becuase of fethed up gene seed, there is also the space sharks who are narly as hell looking.

Salamanders still look pretty human though, despite the jet black skin.
Weren't the Dragons and the Space Sharks treated with suspicion, and were only allowed to exist as they were recognized as space marines, and as such a rare resource for the imperium?