Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

But Thunder Warriors and Custodians don't have implants, they are just genetically altered and Custadians are far superior to SM.

KJ wrote:
But Thunder Warriors and Custodians don't have implants, they are just genetically altered and Custadians are far superior to SM.

Thunder warriors and custodes could never be made at the rate that marines are made at

 TheLumberJack wrote:

KJ wrote:
But Thunder Warriors and Custodians don't have implants, they are just genetically altered and Custadians are far superior to SM.

Thunder warriors and custodes could never be made at the rate that marines are made at

I don't care about rate, but it is obvious that pure genetic engineer is better than implantation, qualitatively not quantitatively.

KJ wrote:

 TheLumberJack wrote:

KJ wrote:
But Thunder Warriors and Custodians don't have implants, they are just genetically altered and Custadians are far superior to SM.

Thunder warriors and custodes could never be made at the rate that marines are made at

I don't care about rate, but it is obvious that pure genetic engineer is better than implantation, qualitatively not quantitatively.

No one's saying it isn't. Primarchs and custodes are clearly much better than space marines but it's not feasible to create an army of Primarchs or custodes

Because 1980's science fiction gaming magazines. That's why.

KJ wrote:

 TheLumberJack wrote:

KJ wrote:
But Thunder Warriors and Custodians don't have implants, they are just genetically altered and Custadians are far superior to SM.

Thunder warriors and custodes could never be made at the rate that marines are made at

I don't care about rate, but it is obvious that pure genetic engineer is better than implantation, qualitatively not quantitatively.

True, but the Space Marines, as odd as it may sound, were not created to be better than the thunder warriors and custodians, but more numerous. The Emperor wanted a standing army that could police his empire. If it weren't for the Heresy we would have seen a lot more Marines.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

KJ wrote:
I don't care about rate, but it is obvious that pure genetic engineer is better than implantation, qualitatively not quantitatively.

True, but the Space Marines, as odd as it may sound, were not created to be better than the thunder warriors and custodians, but more numerous. The Emperor wanted a standing army that could police his empire. If it weren't for the Heresy we would have seen a lot more Marines.

I've gone through this thread and I'd just like to touch on a few pieces of misinformation and poor interpretation.

We have no idea what the process for creating either the Thunder Warriors or Custodes actually is, and we have no idea what either is truly capable of (as far as I'm aware, we have, at best, small snippets here and there that hint at things like the Custodes being either vat-born or converted regular humans; it's not consistent). There is also no way to easily quantify what either are capable of in relation to Astartes. While there are little bits of fluff here and there that hint at things, there are almost just as many contradictions, and on a similar level, those instances where Custodes and Thunder Warriors actually fight are one offs that don't do much to establish a baseline (especially considering the questionable quality of novels, in general, for the purposes of establishing a standard). They don't have gene-seeds, and they might be superior in some aspects compared to Astartes, but beyond that we don't have a clue what any of that actually means or to what extent. They could very well have implanted organs (it doesn't need to be gene-seed) or require constant chemical balancing; we simply don't know how they function, how they are created, or how they are enhanced. Also, on the flipside, Astartes could be superior in any number of ways in comparison, and we wouldn't know. Let me put it this way, there are physiological limitations based on the realities of the world. A bear might be stronger and faster than a human, but a bear cannot compete with humans in other tasks, and it is important to understand that concept. Just because something is radically altered in a science fiction setting does not mean that there aren't real limitations still in place as a result of the unique circumstances involved. The human form can only be taken so far, manipulated in so many ways, before progress will be greatly hindered because of the limitations imposed by the physical realities of the base building blocks.

GW might not be terribly competent when developing lore and neither are the BL authors, but that doesn't mean our interpretations have to be limited by their ineptitude. The parameters set by the fluff allow for a lot of leeway in creating a much more realistic interpretation.

It's highly unlikely that there are any real barriers in the creation of any genetically enhanced being, from a logistical standpoint. The galaxy is massive, and the Imperium is unfathomably large (relatively speaking). Unless they require some insanely rare material that is somehow impossible to create synthetically, then there is no reason for any limitations in numbers. The logistics are there; they could create billions if not trillions of genetically enhanced individuals if that is what they desired. There isn't an argument of quality vs quantity, in reality; it must be more nuanced than that. For example, low estimates of just hive world populations put the Imperium's population in the quadrillions, and we could theoretically put it in the quintillions, if we so desired. Based on that number, the sheer amount of resources the Imperium possesses is absolutely mind boggling, as far as sustaining a sizeable standing army. If they wanted them, they could create entire planets whose sole purpose is to produce and train genetically enhanced individuals, and they could easily produce billions in virtually no time. You take your choice of vat-grown or modified regular humans; it doesn't matter.

I think a lot of this boils down to a few factors, namely that the Emperor wanted the galaxy to belong to normal humans. I think this topic needs to be examined a little more thoroughly. One interesting topic that doesn't seem to get discussed very often is that it is highly unlikely that the humans of the 41st millennium are anything like us. They go through, roughly, ten thousand years of development with incredibly advanced technology at their disposal and nearly unlimited resources. Odds are, the humans of the 41st millennium are genetically quite different from us, in a variety of ways. What exactly is different is up to speculation, but I find it highly unlikely that they are not modified on a number of fundamental levels. We might actually have a lot of examples of this in action within the setting itself; the insanity that is the Imperium's bureaucracy and logistical requirements must require unfathomable levels of comprehension. Similarly, the members of the Mechanicus might also strain credulity if we were talking about what a modern human would be capable of (although, they do replace bits of their brains and whatnot, so that could also help explain some of it).

So genetic enhancements to humans might lead the Emperor to believe that establishing human hegemony is quite reasonable. They possess a number of qualities that might make them suitable for the task, on top of any tribal notions of loyalty.

The end age of strife also demonstrates something very powerful: that races prone to powerful emotions are inherently dangerous to life within the galaxy. The birth of Slaanesh was a fairly traumatic event that the Emperor would have been fully aware of. This provides both the opportunity and a rationale for a concept of manifest destiny for the human race and galactic domination. Humans are emotional creatures, admittedly, but that's not necessarily detrimental. They are notably less emotional than Eldar, and this could help to account for their inferior psychic abilities. There is a strong correlation with the warp and psychic powers and their relationship with emotion (the raw energy of emotions and the thoughts surrounding them are how warp entities are formed, after all). Having some mastery over the warp is probably necessary for a race that wants to be a galactic powerhouse (unless you happen to have stargods helping you out), because as far as we know, faster than light travel is not possible or easily obtainable within the setting (which is, again, perfectly fine; there are physical limitations to the universe, and as far as modern science can tell, that is one of them). A mastery over the warp allows for a variety of technological limitations to be bypassed. However, it's clear that there are inherent dangers presented by having an overly emotional race shaping the tides of the warp. Humans offer a nice middle of the road option as far as emotion and psychic potential is concerned. This also explains the enthusiasm in which the Imperial Truth was pushed, essentially stripping any cultural aspect that might allow for devolution into an irrationally emotional state.

With all that being said, we have to turn our attention to all of the genetically enhanced creations of the Emperor. It is absolutely clear that humanity was supposed to inherit the galaxy, but genetic engineering offers an enormous military edge in the short term. This explains the Primarchs to a certain degree. They are all male, and they clearly are not even remotely human. They are supposed to be brilliant (although, this image of them is greatly hindered by mediocre and bad writing). They also have some pretty remarkable psychic abilities. They may no longer be human, but they are clearly based on humans; that means that they probably think a lot like us. One interesting thing about the way humans think is that we rely on emotions to do it; they are inextricably linked, and when you have strange deviations from that pattern, that's how you get serial killers. The Primarchs are clearly designed to have powerful emotions and general mental faculties. Having strong emotions could facilitate cognitive function, enhance psychic abilities, and even potentially resist psychic influences. However, they were clearly never meant to reproduce, hence them all being male. Primarchs would essentially be even more powerful versions of Eldar when it came down to it, and a race of Primarchs would be all but impossible to control. Any one of these factors basically eliminates their candidacy for being the successors of humanity. It's still a bit unclear as to why exactly they are made in the first place, but at the end of the day it is pure speculation. There are reasonable explanations for why you might want something like the Primarchs, but there is also the fact that the Emperor is not perfect; there doesn't have be a perfectly reasonable explanation for their existence. One interesting explanation for their existence might be that they were not intended to lead the crusades at all. The Emperor might have very well been tinkering with genetics to create himself the perfect body. The Primarchs may be the viable products produced as a result of these experimentations, and before they could be stored or eliminated, they were swept away by the gods of chaos. The Emperor might have genetically enhanced himself or transferred his consciousness to a new body of one of these primarchs. I like the idea that he learned of the process of implanting gene-seed into humans in order to make super humans because of his own experiments to make himself a godlike form. The Emperor being an extremely powerful immortal psyker doesn't have to change, but nothing explains how he got his own gene-seed other than him experimenting on himself.

Now onto Space Marines. Why do they use implants? This is actually a very interesting topic because it's not entirely clear that they have to. There is a theory that the Blood Angels don't utilize the same exact implantation process of most other chapters. They are "implanted" with "the gene-seed of Sanguinious" first and interred into a life support machine know as a sarcophagus, and during the year of their internment they then "acquire" the organs, while being feds something called the blood of Sanguinious. This is, potentially, very different from what normal chapters do, as it doesn't say the organs are implanted, and it implies that all of the internal organs are present after they emerge, opposed to implanted over several years. It also makes a distinction between organs and the gene-seed of Sanguinious, which is odd considering the organs are what is typically what the gene-seed refers to. It doesn't say anything about external organs, such as the Lyman's Ear, though. However, it specifically notes in the codices that this method has a high fatality rate. Vat growing the organs may be the optimal method of producing fully operational and healthy organs, and/or it may cause far less trauma to the human body. It may very well be that these organs are composed of elements completely foreign to human biology, and that creates a host of issues when it comes to growing them within the body itself. If I had to take a guess, the gene-seed organs produce their own retroviruses that allow for their utilization, but trying to grow them inside the body would require the body itself to produce everything the organs required, which would probably require another retrovirus and constant monitoring and the introduction of a variety of foreign elements. This is probably why the Blood Angels use the sarcophagus, and it also explains why Space Marines require chemical therapy over time. Making sure something grows properly is a lot more difficult than just monitoring whether or not it's functional. This may have been one of the original methods of creating Space Marines, but it is noted that there was a lot of pressure to create Space Marines faster during the Great Crusade, and reliability might be an influencing factor. Implantation probably provides far more stable results. It also means you don't lose a year of potential training being unconscious in a tube. Blood Angels might specifically use this method because of the rejuvenative effects of the sarcophagi, as their recruits are of rather poor health because of the nature of their home. The sarcophagi might be quite rare, which adds another dimension to it.

There are also some very important cultural ramifications to having Space Marines be actual humans. One of the major pieces of propaganda pushed by the Great Crusade is that humanity must band together to fight the other. It is a unifying theme. Having vat grown monsters that look vaguely human is not exactly ideal. Having a member of your family transformed into a super fighting machine in order to defend humanity from the threats of a hostile galaxy, now that is a lot easier to sell. Again, the goal is not to replace humanity, so simple principles might be a major influencing factor on this decision. However, we also must take into account that the science behind Primarchs and Space Marines might not be fully understood. For all we know, this is something the Emperor stumbled upon, much like the Golden Throne. It could very well be alien DNA, theories produced by xenos, or Dark Age theories very clumsily modified/utilized to enhance humans. The gene-seed might be designed solely to utilize bizarrely effective hormones, enzymes, and unique structural components. It might very well be the case that these specifically designed aspects are truly beyond what the Emperor or his staff of scientist could fully understand, but that wouldn't stop them from attempting to use them. Many of the unstable elements within gene-seed might be a result of this, and the variance in the Primarchs could reflect testing of various different elements. There could be a stash of completely unusable super genetics and organic components somewhere on Terra that they never could get to work with humans as a baseline. Internet scientists like to think they know exactly what science of the future looks like and what certain technology implies about a society's capabilities, but the reality is that science is driven by a slow and meticulous process of trial and error that is prone to awkward, unbalancing steps forward. What we could have is a very unique situation where a technique is derived to make super soldiers from technology that is not fully understood. Cloning and vat production might simply be impossible because of the dual genetic makeup, and the process of modifying a base human may have been much simpler because of a previous scientific endeavor. What this could imply is that in order to make Space Marines in a similar fashion to the Primarchs, they would have to create an entirely new species and on top of that they may have to clone viable ones because of the inherent genetic instability. Space Marines might be messy, but that could very well be because of limitations in their science and a time constraint. They function pretty well, and they are relatively easy to replicate. Why delay the Great Crusade by decades when you could just use what you have?

I think there is rampant speculation as to what Thunder Warriors are and how they relate to Space Marines. Keeping with my theory, Thunder Warriors could be a completely separate vein of genetic research or utilizing a different implementation of enhanced genetics. Whatever they are, it's pretty clear that they were a test and a means to an end. Not much has to be said beyond that. Their supposed superiority can be explained away with any number of complications, and that's not including their mental peculiarities. It's probably a bit too simplistic to say that their mental issues had much to do with why they were eliminated. They could be an offshoot that proved less reliable than Space Marines. The Primarch technology may have been "perfected" much later or the Thunder Warriors were, at first, thought to be a more promising candidate for the role of super soldier. The Space Marines derived from the remnants of the Primarch project could have a host of other benefits associated with them. I'll elaborate a little bit on this: Thunder warriors may have been designed in a different manner than the Primarchs and had far more limitation; the complex synergy of Primarch related enhancements may have afforded a variety of benefits far and above what the Thunder Warriors were capable of, and these processes may have been mutually exclusive. Their body composition might have been completely different from a Primarch and thus a merging of the two concepts may have been impossible. Being stronger and tougher might have been a fairly unique creation that required radical, fundamental changes; it also might be derived from a separate source from wherever the Primarchs came from. So while the Thunder Warriors may have pushed the envelope on what the human base is physically capable of, it might not have allowed for some of the benefits the Primarch alternative provided (including mental).

One interesting option is that Space Marines are inherently psychic on some level. The Omophagea, for instance, could be a uniquely psychic organ, and its "remembrance" function is purely coincidental. This could help explain the unique bond between the Primarchs and their legions. For instance, it could help explain the trauma Sanguinius inflicted on the Blood Angels with his death. This could very well be by design: Space Marines may inherently be drawn to Primarchs on a psychic level, and if the Emperor himself is a Primarch, he could have meant for this to instill loyalty in him and between Marines(their psychic bond could very well resonate amongst one another). On a similar note, some of the developmental capacity of the Primarchs may be psychically linked. The technology that created the Primarchs might have been psychically manipulated into submission. There are lots of possibilities here. There is a scenario where the Emperor didn't want the Primarchs to exist at all, and it's only by chance that he found Horus early during the Great Crusade and that he took such a liking to him that he decided not to destroy him.

Another aspect that should be taken into account is that Space Marines are insane. They far surpass what we understand as physically possible. It's not so simple to say that they are just buff humans. They are insanely strong and fast which implies that they have a whole slew of unique muscle attachments, and their tendons must be virtually indestructible. I have no idea how their joints work, as whenever they punch something their bones should shatter and their joints should be utterly destroyed. You can explain some of that away by saying unique muscle groups could form a rigid mass of their arm when they punch, but I still have no idea how their elbows would work. Their multi-lung defies explanation; there are some aspects that we could theorize about, like they could coat their lungs in setae to maintain a gaseous layer which could extend their oxygen supply and facilitate diffusion of carbon monoxide and diffused oxygen in order to act as a pseudo-filter and sort of breath water, and they might utilize a rebreather molecule somewhere in there(maybe through a filter of sorts at the entrance of the lung), but it's a uniquely complicated organ that is really beyond our understanding. When you really try and break down what Space Marines are capable of, it's not simple. Most of the implied changes to Space Marines are more miraculous than the descriptions of the organ's effects themselves (although, if you really go through what each of the organs probably does, some of the implications are quite profound). The science isn't just way beyond what we currently understand, it pushes the boundaries of what is even possible. There is so much room for speculation here as to how it all might work, but a lot of what I hear on forums such a this suggests a hand-wavy approach opposed to trying to glean some understanding of the complexity of the setting. What the science implies is immense, and it creates a far richer story than "1980s guys don't understand science". They don't, but by comparison 2016 PH.D physicists, relatively speaking, don't understand science. It's all relative, and that is part of the magic of science fiction. It implores us reach for those impossibilities.

I want to be clear as I wrap this up that I don't think that this particular theory is the only possible interpretation or even the best. However, I hope this demonstrates a method of thinking about 40k lore that is not so restrictive and based on silly speculation about things we couldn't possibly know. Too many theories are based on random bits of lore or wild assumptions not grounded in any sort of logic. It is fine to speculate and make assumptions, but they have to go deeper than just a feeling in order to make any kind of sense. I think I've managed to lay out a reasonable groundwork that possibly explain some aspects of the lore, and that's all I'm trying to do. I just want to produce a plausible theory that helps our understanding opposed to tearing down the ideas. Some of the 40k stuff, such as almost every specific number ever given by GW about anything, should rightly be thrown into the garbage because they are silly and mostly wrong on a fundamental level, but a lot of the other stuff has a lot of wiggle room to create fun theories. Knee-jerk responses aren't terribly helpful or based in logic. Most of the lore is so vague that there are plenty of plausible explanations for them, and I think that is a far more productive use of our time.

:Edit: My apologies, I had no idea how long this would be until after I submitted it.

I thought geneseed was the organ that achieved genetic modifications within the body. Once implanted it would begin updating cells with the new genetic code and prevent rejection of the new organs. Rather than sitting through years of gene therapy, this tiny little organ will do the work for you.

 Mr Nobody wrote:
I thought geneseed was the organ that achieved genetic modifications within the body. Once implanted it would begin updating cells with the new genetic code and prevent rejection of the new organs. Rather than sitting through years of gene therapy, this tiny little organ will do the work for you.

The gene-seed is the basis for growing all of the organs. It is a collection of genetic material from the various organs that is stored in the progenoid glands of a Space Marine. Each progenoid only produces one, and each gene-seed will only produce one set of organs.

I think one of the misunderstandings is between Gene-engineering and germline engineering. Gene engineering is using the magic of science to change the genome of an individual so that it will manifest certain traits. These traits may or may not be heritable, for instance if we alter the number of chromosomes the odds are very small that the engineered creature will be able to propagate with unaltered members of the same species.

Germline engineering is much more complicated, because you not only change the subject, but make the changes heritable. So not only does the subject have to survive, you have to make the change in such a way that it does not interfere with procreation and maturation of it's descendants. This isn't so bad for single allele changes, where you can expect descendants to inherit all of the instructions you created. The changes required to make a space marine are present across large portions of the genome, and if anyone piece is missing it results in the death of the infant. Then there are the changes themselves to contend with, imagine a baby with a fused ribcage, or the ability to spit poison. There is also the metabolism and dietary requirements, few babies eat iron bars and 6k calories a day.

Finally a monogendered species has only got one generation before extinction. There is probably a reason there are only male space marines and primarchs, the emperor was fairly egalitarian, and the idea that no female ever was worthy to become a space marine kind of fly's in the face of that. It could be that he was worried about a race of post humans, and thus took the simplest means to prevent it and just made it impossible for them to breed with members of their own species by making them monogendered.

We actually took a very big step in germline engineering recently with mosquitos. In 20 or 30 years malaria could be the next polio;

http://www.popsci.com/fda-okays-oxitec-proposal-for-gmo-mosquito-release-in-florida

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

KJ wrote:

 TheLumberJack wrote:

KJ wrote:
But Thunder Warriors and Custodians don't have implants, they are just genetically altered and Custadians are far superior to SM.

Thunder warriors and custodes could never be made at the rate that marines are made at

I don't care about rate, but it is obvious that pure genetic engineer is better than implantation, qualitatively not quantitatively.

True, but the Space Marines, as odd as it may sound, were not created to be better than the thunder warriors and custodians, but more numerous. The Emperor wanted a standing army that could police his empire. If it weren't for the Heresy we would have seen a lot more Marines.

My understanding was that the Thunderwarriors had much shorter lifespans. Stronger, tougher, heavier, but not suited for a long campaign to conquer the entire galaxy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

IdleAltruism wrote:



It's highly unlikely that there are any real barriers in the creation of any genetically enhanced being, from a logistical standpoint. The galaxy is massive, and the Imperium is unfathomably large (relatively speaking). Unless they require some insanely rare material that is somehow impossible to create synthetically, then there is no reason for any limitations in numbers. The logistics are there; they could create billions if not trillions of genetically enhanced individuals if that is what they desired. There isn't an argument of quality vs quantity, in reality; it must be more nuanced than that. For example, low estimates of just hive world populations put the Imperium's population in the quadrillions, and we could theoretically put it in the quintillions, if we so desired. Based on that number, the sheer amount of resources the Imperium possesses is absolutely mind boggling, as far as sustaining a sizeable standing army. If they wanted them, they could create entire planets whose sole purpose is to produce and train genetically enhanced individuals, and they could easily produce billions in virtually no time. You take your choice of vat-grown or modified regular humans; it doesn't matter.

While the IoM is vast, a lot of those planets are not very advanced having just bows and arrows or muskets. The fluff says the plasma rifle was meant to be issued to everyone, replacing boltguns and lasguns, but that it couldnt be delivered in sufficient quantities.
Also GW has written up that they are beset on all sides with waring factions. If they did have limitless production capabilities they would very quickly win all the wars.

What we do know is that Geneseed is precious. If it wasnt, they would not have apothocaries running around trying to collect it. The IoM would simply create enough to constantly resupply every chapter. Space Marines run out of armor and geneseed, but not boltguns, so there must be some limit to volume the IoM can churn out.

 Exergy wrote:

While the IoM is vast, a lot of those planets are not very advanced having just bows and arrows or muskets. The fluff says the plasma rifle was meant to be issued to everyone, replacing boltguns and lasguns, but that it couldnt be delivered in sufficient quantities.
Also GW has written up that they are beset on all sides with waring factions. If they did have limitless production capabilities they would very quickly win all the wars.

What we do know is that Geneseed is precious. If it wasnt, they would not have apothocaries running around trying to collect it. The IoM would simply create enough to constantly resupply every chapter. Space Marines run out of armor and geneseed, but not boltguns, so there must be some limit to volume the IoM can churn out.

That's not a very compelling or comprehensive argument. There are numerous logistical, technological, and political factors that play into how production in the Imperium works. If it was a perfect machine that managed to eek out every ounce of efficiency from its worlds, I could see how your argument makes sense on some level, but that is clearly not the case. There is also a gigantic leap between arming hundreds of trillions if not quadrillions (based off of very conservative estimates of the Imperium's population) of guardsmen and producing a tiny army, relatively speaking, of genetically enhanced soldiers over the course of a few decades on a couple of planets. The two scenarios are nothing alike and the requirements are drastically different.

As far as gene-seed is concerned, they very well can mass produce it, and we have no idea how much of it is banked away. One of the methods for creating a new chapter is taking base gene-seed and mass producing it via implanting slaves. They're pretty thorough, so it takes a few decades. It is not really rare, per se.To be frank, the whole a chapter might be destroyed because a lack of gene-seed is laughable in how absurd it is, and there are examples of related chapters donating recruits in order to bolster numbers (see the Blood Angels recruit tithe). It is sacred, and there seem to be artificial limitations on its production, but there shouldn't be a scenario where a chapter would be extinguished unless they all miraculously died at once. The worst that should happen to any given chapter is that they are knocked out of commission for a few decades while they recoup their losses.

However, there are very good arguments to be made that the 1,000 Space Marine chapters number is just another case of GW putting their foot in their mouth trying to throw out specific numbers again. The sheer size of the Imperium, the number of conflict zones, and the immense population would dictate that there would need to be, at the very least, billions of Astartes to even register on the grand scale of things (and there would need to be even more for the Great Crusade). The current number of Astartes is something like a bucket full of sand in relation to all the sand on Earth, as far as population scale goes. As far as a comparison to the other armed forces of the Imperium combined, it is still that same bucket compared to literal mountain ranges of sand. The disparity is insane, and the number of conflict zones within the Imperium at any given time would require far greater numbers of Astartes to even notice their presence. And that is being incredibly conservative with the population estimates of the Imperium; if we want to go high counting, it is much much worse. In their current state, the number of conflicts the Space Marines are involved in isn't even a single percent. The biggest problem with this is that travel is far too difficult to guarantee that any given Space Marine chapter could be in the right place at the right time to settle any given new conflict, which means that they don't even have the opportunity to fight in most conflicts. Countless Waaaghs! and chaos incursions go by without Space Marines having even heard about them. It's nice to hear about how Space Marines came in and saved the day, yet again, but the reality of the situation, with the given numbers, is that they could disappear and the Imperium would probably chug on and not notice. That doesn't fit the narrative that is being played up by GW or BL, but that is the reality of the numbers we have been presented with (unless we are to completely discard virtually everything else we know about the 40k universe, such as how warp travel works). In order to resolve this we must either abandon the notion that Space Marines have any perceptible impact on warfare within the Imperium and are essentially poster boys (which I must admit is entertaining on some level) or that the number of Space Marine chapters is completely wrong. I think both are perfectly fine options. I've seen the debate flare up numerous times, but I've never heard a good explanations as to why there are so few Space Marines; something about a few million really resonates with people, but I think this is mostly due to the fact that it's just so difficult to grasp the enormity of the Imperium and just how difficult warp travel makes conflicts, in general.

If there are more Space Marine chapters than the official numbers, then it is very possible that there is no artificial cap; they might be solely restricted by a queue for equipment. As I mentioned earlier, the Mechanicus is responsible for equipping an entirely unreasonable number of combatants. Pragmatism is a major concern. They can only allocate so many resources to special forces, and they might be stretched thin as it is, which would explain why certain things are more difficult to come by, such as terminator armor. It's not that it's impossible to switch all production to plasma guns; it's more that the sheer volume of production is absolutely insane, and it only makes sense to be as efficient as possible. More bodies and lasguns is apparently much more efficient than hyper specialization, which makes a degree of sense in a total war scenario.

 jhe90 wrote:
Any genetic modifications done to make a non marine super soldier would be frought with many failers and sub standead results before a sucess.

My understanding is that it is fairly common for soldiers to be genetically modified. Albeit full of notable failures and the more extreme they go the less likelihood of success. There's whole regiments in the guard full of such soldiers.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

IdleAltruism wrote:
As far as gene-seed is concerned, they very well can mass produce it, and we have no idea how much of it is banked away. One of the methods for creating a new chapter is taking base gene-seed and mass producing it via implanting slaves. They're pretty thorough, so it takes a few decades. It is not really rare, per se.To be frank, the whole a chapter might be destroyed because a lack of gene-seed is laughable in how absurd it is, and there are examples of related chapters donating recruits in order to bolster numbers (see the Blood Angels recruit tithe). It is sacred, and there seem to be artificial limitations on its production, but there shouldn't be a scenario where a chapter would be extinguished unless they all miraculously died at once. The worst that should happen to any given chapter is that they are knocked out of commission for a few decades while they recoup their losses.

The knowledge to create new gene seeds from scratch was lost long ago. Even when they were mass produced in the past only after Luna was conquered. Individual chapters use two Progenoid glands to produce more gene seeds (aka space marines creating space marines) albeit many gene seeds will be lost via combat. This means outside of the Adeptus Mechanicus chapters can create new legions as with what happened with the Astral Claws, but requires a period of relative peace for them to do so (one gland takes 5 years, the other takes 10) or withholding gene seed tithes. As far as I know it's unknown whether gene seeds are still capable of mass production within the Adeptus Mechanicus, but then again, that rate of mass production would never make a real dent on the population of the Imperium.

 Baldeagle91 wrote:

The knowledge to create new gene seeds from scratch was lost long ago. Even when they were mass produced in the past only after Luna was conquered. Individual chapters use two Progenoid glands to produce more gene seeds (aka space marines creating space marines) albeit many gene seeds will be lost via combat. This means outside of the Adeptus Mechanicus chapters can create new legions as with what happened with the Astral Claws, but requires a period of relative peace for them to do so (one gland takes 5 years, the other takes 10) or withholding gene seed tithes. As far as I know it's unknown whether gene seeds are still capable of mass production within the Adeptus Mechanicus, but then again, that rate of mass production would never make a real dent on the population of the Imperium.

I don't understand what you're trying to say; it's not at all focused. I already provided how they mass produce gene-seed. From the Index Astartes:

Index Astartes: Rites of Initiation wrote:Founding new Chapters According to their charter, each Chapter is obliged to send 5% of its genetic material to the Adeptus Mechanicus on Mars. This ‘tithe’ has two purposes. Firstly, it enables the Adeptus Mechanicus to monitor the health of each Marine Chapter. Secondly, it enables the Adeptus Mechanicus to store geneseed with a view to founding new Chapters. A new Chapter cannot be founded overnight. A single suitable gene-seed must be selected for each zygote. Zygotes are then grown in culture and implanted into human test-slaves. These test-slaves must be biologically compatible and free from mutation. Test-slaves spend their entire lives bound in static experimental capsules. Although conscious, they are completely immobile, serving as little more than mediums within which the various zygotes can develop. From the original slave come two progenoids, which are implanted within two more slaves, from which come four progenoids and so on. It takes about 55 years of constant reproduction to produce 1,000 healthy sets of organs.

Well that's terrifying, I wonder how many unreleased chapters worth of space marines the admech has in the incubator, they could easily have full legions cooking as an insurance policy. Because it's exponential growth, so every 5 years the size doubles, in 90 years they could have organs for a full legion of 130,000 marines, that means within a century (counting equipment and training) they could have a force large enough to be a threat to the imperium as a whole.

The 'there musy be more astartes than 1000 per chapter' is a very compelling one. I like the idea that there are more chapters than we know of, rather than the chapters themselves being larger (although both being true would make the most sense).

I wonder if anyone's ever done a proper census of chapters. We've got all the named ones in the fluff, but has anyone actually tried to get a list of all the fan-made chapters out there?

Would be interesting to see the real-world demographics of that...