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AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I was talking less about the model style and more about the overall conceptual design and fluff, I should have said "black library" rather than "forge world" I guess.

Also Geigor is pretty subdued compared to Logan Claus, Murderface, Thunderwolf Cavalry and the giant flying dog's heads. He does wear quite a bit of gubbinz, but he's a character so I don't mind.

You're welcome to like the cartoonish style, I know from previous threads there's barely anything GW do that you don't like I normally wouldn't care. But realise I liked Space Wolves the way they were previously and it's people like me that hate the direction GW took with them. Things like "Wolfy Wolf Wolf" make me throw up a little bit in my mouth each time I read them.

Hopefully the 30k Wolves stay gritty rather than comical so people who want that style can stay with it.

i do realize that you liked the Space Wolves they way that they used to be, i just don't think the they have lost their Space Viking flavor, or gone as far away from their roots as you do...
it is a bummer that GW have made you hate the current iteration of the Wolves :(
sorry that my joke made you throw up a little bit in your mouth

conceptually, something like the Thunderwolves appeal to me, because they are like a mash-up of Thunder Cats (the name), He-Man on Battle Cat (the look), and the Elf Quest comic (riding wolves, ie the idea)...
those are three things that i really liked as a kid...
now i have cool models to paint that bring those things together

i do look forward to the Wolves getting the Forge World treatment in the next big HH book...
i hope it is as good as the World Eaters and Salamanders sections are
i like gritty, too!!!

cheers
jah

Blood Angels: blood, blood, blood, blood

Death Company: death, death, death, death

The list goes on...

 jah-joshua wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I was talking less about the model style and more about the overall conceptual design and fluff, I should have said "black library" rather than "forge world" I guess.

Also Geigor is pretty subdued compared to Logan Claus, Murderface, Thunderwolf Cavalry and the giant flying dog's heads. He does wear quite a bit of gubbinz, but he's a character so I don't mind.

You're welcome to like the cartoonish style, I know from previous threads there's barely anything GW do that you don't like I normally wouldn't care. But realise I liked Space Wolves the way they were previously and it's people like me that hate the direction GW took with them. Things like "Wolfy Wolf Wolf" make me throw up a little bit in my mouth each time I read them.

Hopefully the 30k Wolves stay gritty rather than comical so people who want that style can stay with it.

i do realize that you liked the Space Wolves they way that they used to be, i just don't think the they have lost their Space Viking flavor, or gone as far away from their roots as you do...
it is a bummer that GW have made you hate the current iteration of the Wolves :(
sorry that my joke made you throw up a little bit in your mouth

conceptually, something like the Thunderwolves appeal to me, because they are like a mash-up of Thunder Cats (the name), He-Man on Battle Cat (the look), and the Elf Quest comic (riding wolves, ie the idea)...
those are three things that i really liked as a kid...
now i have cool models to paint that bring those things together

i do look forward to the Wolves getting the Forge World treatment in the next big HH book...
i hope it is as good as the World Eaters and Salamanders sections are
i like gritty, too!!!

cheers
jah

I think back when I started SW weren't as on the nose, more left to the imagination so it was easier to picture them as wolf themed norse marines rather than currently where it's wolf themed wolfy wolves. There was a wolfiness to them obviously, but mostly it was limited to HQ's and Wolf Guard. The names "Grey Hunters", "Blood Claws" and "Long Fangs" never bothered me because they seemed a bit more creative, it feels like if GW were naming those units now they'd be "Wolf Hunters", "Blood Wolves" and "Wolf Fangs"

I think it's one of those things where GW fleshing it out has just put a spotlight on the comical factor and it's hard to picture them as anything other than comical now.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
The names "Grey Hunters", "Blood Claws" and "Long Fangs" never bothered me because they seemed a bit more creative, it feels like if GW were naming those units now they'd be "Wolf Hunters", "Blood Wolves" and "Wolf Fangs"

I think it's one of those things where GW fleshing it out has just put a spotlight on the comical factor and it's hard to picture them as anything other than comical now.

Those name were not only more creative, but ad a deeper meaning because were related to the career stage of the marine.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
The names "Grey Hunters", "Blood Claws" and "Long Fangs" never bothered me because they seemed a bit more creative, it feels like if GW were naming those units now they'd be "Wolf Hunters", "Blood Wolves" and "Wolf Fangs"

I think it's one of those things where GW fleshing it out has just put a spotlight on the comical factor and it's hard to picture them as anything other than comical now.

Those name were not only more creative, but ad a deeper meaning because were related to the career stage of the marine.

yet, those original names, and stages still remain...
none of that has been lost...

@Skink: i'm sorry but it seems like you are extrapolating a possible alternate reality, and embracing it as if it exists, to your own displeasure...
like calling the Dread Murderface, when his name is actually Murderfang...
Murderfang seems like a very appropriate Norse name...
in Norse history you have some pretty on-the-nose names like Eric Bloodaxe, Sweyn Forkbeard, Bjorn Ironside, and Ivar the Boneless...
i mean, if his name actually was Murderface, i'd be right there with you calling it ridiculous

seriously, original names The Great Wolf, Wolf Lords, Wolf Priests, Wolf Guard, Wulfen, and Wolf Scouts are fine, but Thunderwolves and Wolf Claws are a step too far???
i get that GW has made you dislike the Wolves, and i respect your opinion, but it is not as bad as people make it out to be...
internet hyperbole is an amazing phenomenon...

i'll go back to prepping The Fell-Hand now, and enjoying myself...
this has definitely been an interesting conversation

cheers
jah

I think a typical SW army on the tabletop isn't going to seem that silly (unless it has that Santa model), but when you shine a light on all of the wolfy wolf stuff at the same time and list them it looks ridiculous. Their fluff, if not handled well, can also make them look daft

You can make a SW army that is still primarily a space marine force without the wolfage being front and centre at all times

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
"Oi, Sir, Fred has just turned in to a slavering werewolf, what should we do?" "SWEET! That's wonderful news! Put him on the front line".

To be fair, when you are a Space Marine, and your only purpose in life is thus to kill as much enemies as possible before your inevitable death, that is actually pretty great news.

 jah-joshua wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
The names "Grey Hunters", "Blood Claws" and "Long Fangs" never bothered me because they seemed a bit more creative, it feels like if GW were naming those units now they'd be "Wolf Hunters", "Blood Wolves" and "Wolf Fangs"

I think it's one of those things where GW fleshing it out has just put a spotlight on the comical factor and it's hard to picture them as anything other than comical now.

Those name were not only more creative, but ad a deeper meaning because were related to the career stage of the marine.

yet, those original names, and stages still remain...
none of that has been lost...

@Skink: i'm sorry but it seems like you are extrapolating a possible alternate reality, and embracing it as if it exists, to your own displeasure...
like calling the Dread Murderface, when his name is actually Murderfang...
Murderfang seems like a very appropriate Norse name...

I will always call him Murderface thanks to the Metalocalypse character of the same name and face that doesn't look dissimilar enough for me to not draw comparisons

And Murderfang would probably be a fine name (though a little bit silly still) if they didn't give him Murderclaws while fighting in a Murderlust and that he was found on the planet Omnicide

in Norse history you have some pretty on-the-nose names like Eric Bloodaxe, Sweyn Forkbeard, Bjorn Ironside, and Ivar the Boneless...

And all those are fine sounding names. Using "murder" in the name just sounds way too try-hard like a kid who showed up late to the cool-name show and couldn't come up with anything better, but okay we'll let it pass, then they pile it on with the Murderclaws, Murderlust and Omnicide.

But I'm totally fine with the Nordic sounding names, Ragnar Blackmane, Ulrik the Slayer, Arjac Rockfist, Kyrl Grimblood, Njal Stormcaller, Bjorn the Fell-Handed. I'm not sure where "Geigor" comes from, doesn't sound Nordic to me though maybe it is.

seriously, original names The Great Wolf, Wolf Lords, Wolf Priests, Wolf Guard, Wulfen, and Wolf Scouts are fine

Well Wulfen weren't actually a unit in 2nd edition when I started, "Wulfen" was the curse that was to be hidden, not assembled in to units to be trotted out in to battle. I think it was barely even mentioned in the 2nd codex.

but Thunderwolves and Wolf Claws are a step too far???

Well in the case of the Thunderwolves they're their own level of absurdity, a Marine who should weigh as much as a small car riding on the back of a Wolf and IMO (though it's obviously subjective) the models look like toys I actually would have quite liked Thunderwolves had they not gone and mounted Marines on them, the idea of packs of giant wolves who treat the Space Wolves like pack mates is kind of cool, then they went and turned the absurdity up to 11 by mounting a Marine on the back.

As for specifically talking about the "Wolf" stuff (naming wise). It's the difference between "There's a few Wolfy things" and "Tack WOLF on to everything we can!!". Like I just opened my 7th edition codex and read Harald DeathWOLF, Lord of the WOLFkin with his Saga of the WOLFkin and special rule Lord of the WOLFkin, not to mention he can ride a wolf and be accompanied by additional wolves. The paragraph of fluff for him has "wolf" or "wolves" in it 12 times in just 7 sentences. It all just reads like it was written by a preteen with a wolf fetish.

At least they got rid of some of the Wolf items, the Wolf Tooth Necklace and Wolf Tail Talisman, but for whatever reason we still have to call it a Wolf Standard and for good measure they added Logan on his sleigh.

As I said previously I'm not denying there was lots of "Wolf" stuff before, but more was left to the imagination and it wasn't written like a cartoon, by fleshing out the SW they just highlighted the absurd angles rather than the gritty viking angles (which luckily the BL did with the Prospero Burns book).

They should have gone the Dark Souls route and given the Thunderwolf a greatsword instead of mounting a marine on it. The implication could be that the Thunderwolf still remembers how to fight like a marine from when it was on two legs.

If Fenrisian Wolves and Thunderwolves were Marines, then we basically have Marines riding Marines
Relevant clip.


It's kind of silly. Now if they were bears...

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Ratius wrote:
Picking on the Wolves is a bit unfair though, GWs naming conventions have always been whacky at times.
War walker - it walks to war?
Mega Nobz hurhur
Genestealers - oh they steal genes?
Dunecrawler - really?

We could go on.....

Individual examples are one thing, and most of these dont actually follow the same pattern. War Walker is just fine and is pretty descriptive. Wolf Claw was just a better Lightning Claw just for its own sake.

Space Wolves took that to a rather absurd level, and took a garnish theme and ran it into the ground. It went right past "cool", beyond "tired", up to "farcical" and straight into "near parody" and finally with sleighs and actual cavalry wolves into "absurdity". SW's are a faction I want to like very much, but theyve been takrn overboard in so many ways they just come off as an 8 year olds bad internet fanfic.

BA's had the same problem with their 5E book, with things like replacing DCCW's with "blood fists" that were identical but renamed for literally no reason, or having "bloodstrike" missiles...

Is the Blood Angels' codex better now ?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
They should have gone the Dark Souls route and given the Thunderwolf a greatsword instead of mounting a marine on it. The implication could be that the Thunderwolf still remembers how to fight like a marine from when it was on two legs.

If Fenrisian Wolves and Thunderwolves were Marines, then we basically have Marines riding Marines
Relevant clip.

Spoiler:

It's kind of silly. Now if they were bears...

I don't think Thunderwolves are failed aspirants. I think that idea came from the saying in Prospero Burns "There is no wolves on Fenris", there's a few theories where that saying comes from but Leman Russ was supposedly raised by Wolves and Freki and Greki strike me as Thunderwolves more than "regular" Fenrisian Wolves which would suggest they existed on Fenris before the Space Wolves legion ever arrived.

There is a theory that the Space Wolf mutation doesn't come from the geneseed, but rather from the Fenrisian population.
The idea is that the early colonists on Fenris spliced themselves with wolf genes to survive the frigid conditions. Some of the attempts failed, resulting in Fenrisian Wolves, but it was eventually successful and the colonists mananged to make a stable hybrid.

The geneseed causes these traits to become especially prominent, hence the marine's wolf like appearance, but also increases the chances of them becoming wolves.

Yeah I've heard that theory as well, not sure I really like it

Wasn't there a failed successor chapter for the Space Wolves on another planet, but they all succumbed to the curse of the wulfen or something like that? If the flaw was in the fenrisians rather than the geneseed surely that successor chapter would have just turned out fine?

So that would suggest the genetic flaw exists within the geneseed from Russ rather than Fenrisians in general. Though maybe there's something in the Fenrisian population that stabilises the flaw in the geneseed, but again that doesn't quite make sense because the first Space Wolves would have been made from Terrans rather than Fenrisians? Did Russ himself have fangs or wolf like features?

Either way, I'm not a fan of Space Marines riding giant wolves or riding in floating chariots pulled by giant wolves, regardless of whether they're actual wolves or mutated humans who have become wolves

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 jah-joshua wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
The names "Grey Hunters", "Blood Claws" and "Long Fangs" never bothered me because they seemed a bit more creative, it feels like if GW were naming those units now they'd be "Wolf Hunters", "Blood Wolves" and "Wolf Fangs"

I think it's one of those things where GW fleshing it out has just put a spotlight on the comical factor and it's hard to picture them as anything other than comical now.

Those name were not only more creative, but ad a deeper meaning because were related to the career stage of the marine.

yet, those original names, and stages still remain...
none of that has been lost...

@Skink: i'm sorry but it seems like you are extrapolating a possible alternate reality, and embracing it as if it exists, to your own displeasure...
like calling the Dread Murderface, when his name is actually Murderfang...
Murderfang seems like a very appropriate Norse name...

I will always call him Murderface thanks to the Metalocalypse character of the same name and face that doesn't look dissimilar enough for me to not draw comparisons

And Murderfang would probably be a fine name (though a little bit silly still) if they didn't give him Murderclaws while fighting in a Murderlust and that he was found on the planet Omnicide

in Norse history you have some pretty on-the-nose names like Eric Bloodaxe, Sweyn Forkbeard, Bjorn Ironside, and Ivar the Boneless...

And all those are fine sounding names. Using "murder" in the name just sounds way too try-hard like a kid who showed up late to the cool-name show and couldn't come up with anything better, but okay we'll let it pass, then they pile it on with the Murderclaws, Murderlust and Omnicide.

But I'm totally fine with the Nordic sounding names, Ragnar Blackmane, Ulrik the Slayer, Arjac Rockfist, Kyrl Grimblood, Njal Stormcaller, Bjorn the Fell-Handed. I'm not sure where "Geigor" comes from, doesn't sound Nordic to me though maybe it is.

seriously, original names The Great Wolf, Wolf Lords, Wolf Priests, Wolf Guard, Wulfen, and Wolf Scouts are fine

Well Wulfen weren't actually a unit in 2nd edition when I started, "Wulfen" was the curse that was to be hidden, not assembled in to units to be trotted out in to battle. I think it was barely even mentioned in the 2nd codex.

but Thunderwolves and Wolf Claws are a step too far???

Well in the case of the Thunderwolves they're their own level of absurdity, a Marine who should weigh as much as a small car riding on the back of a Wolf and IMO (though it's obviously subjective) the models look like toys I actually would have quite liked Thunderwolves had they not gone and mounted Marines on them, the idea of packs of giant wolves who treat the Space Wolves like pack mates is kind of cool, then they went and turned the absurdity up to 11 by mounting a Marine on the back.

As for specifically talking about the "Wolf" stuff (naming wise). It's the difference between "There's a few Wolfy things" and "Tack WOLF on to everything we can!!". Like I just opened my 7th edition codex and read Harald DeathWOLF, Lord of the WOLFkin with his Saga of the WOLFkin and special rule Lord of the WOLFkin, not to mention he can ride a wolf and be accompanied by additional wolves. The paragraph of fluff for him has "wolf" or "wolves" in it 12 times in just 7 sentences. It all just reads like it was written by a preteen with a wolf fetish.

At least they got rid of some of the Wolf items, the Wolf Tooth Necklace and Wolf Tail Talisman, but for whatever reason we still have to call it a Wolf Standard and for good measure they added Logan on his sleigh.

As I said previously I'm not denying there was lots of "Wolf" stuff before, but more was left to the imagination and it wasn't written like a cartoon, by fleshing out the SW they just highlighted the absurd angles rather than the gritty viking angles (which luckily the BL did with the Prospero Burns book).

yeah, we are never going to see eye to eye on this subject...

why does Murderfang's existence have to turn you off so much, when you can just ignore him, and use the kit to make a badass Bjorn the Fellhanded???
even better, just use the old Bjorn model
i just don't understand why some fiction would cause a person to hate their army...

i'm not sure where the name Geigor came from either, and i'm not a fan, so i just refer to him as Fell-Hand...
problem solved, and sounds proper Space Viking...

Thunderwolves don't seem absurd to me at all...
they do seem like something out of a cartoon, you are right, but i don't see why that is a bad thing
you know that you can easily model a Marine running along with a Fenrisian Wolf on that big base, and call 'em whatever you like...
counts-as is a great opportunity for bringing your own vision to life...
i am also in the camp of people who see 40K as Space Fantasy, not seeing a need for realistic physics on my Space Opera...
of course, actually liking the Thunderwolf models helps

i think Harald Deathwolf is a great Space Viking name...
i like Canis Wolfborn, too
12 "Wolfs" in 7 sentences doesn't turn me off, but it does make me think that the author could use a Thesaurus for Christmas
it wouldn't have hurt the author to throw in a "lupine" or "canine" in there somewhere!!!

i don't see the problem with things names like wolf tooth necklace, or wolf tail talisman...
it's exactly what they are...

again, i don't understand why fiction can turn someone from being passionate about their army to hating it...
to me, it's just made up stuff, and anyone can easily make up their own, or disregard the bits they don't like...
maybe it's just because i have no time for negativity or bitterness in my hobby or my life...
this stuff is supposed to be fun...
plus, i never lost my love of toys and cartoons

there are plenty of things that GW create, and many products that they produce, that i don't like...
i don't give them a second glance, but instead get on with enjoying the bits i do like...

anyway, like i said earlier,mate, i respect your opinion, even if i don't get it...

cheers
jah

Space goofies

I think Jah-Joshua has it right, like honestly it is very refreshing to see some positivity on this thread