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Greetings all,

So I've been looking to expand my forces/give myself some new army options for my Guard forces. Overall I've been considering one of the two Imperial Armor books, Siege of Vraks or Volume One: Imperial Guard.

From what I know, Vraks includes Death Korps of Krieg and Renegade Guard army lists, but Volume One includes a much wider variety of Imperial Guard specific armor.

So, anybody have thoughts/comments on the which of the two books I should lean towards? I have interest in just about everything both books have to offer, but as usual budget is a consideration and getting both would be expensive.

Vraks doesn't give many broader options; it's useful if you want to play either Kriegers or Traitor Guard but doesn't have things to use with the normal Codex.

IA1 is old-ish and has been overwritten in places; if you're really attached to the idea of using unusual superheavies, Russ tank-destroyer variants, or weird utility vehicles you may find some use for it. Warzone Damocles has a better/more flexible armoured company in the Cadian battlegroup as well as the most current rules for the Baneblade variants.

You'll probably get more use for a normal Guard army out of Warzone Damocles than either one If you want a full-replacement army book your options are broader, Vraks/Orpheus (Kriegers), Taros (Elysians), and Anphelion Project (D99).

Thank you very much for this information, sincerely appreciated

The IA1V2 Armoured battle group is a vehicle (hurr) for Leman Russ Demolishers, at a sensible price point, as troops. Also for allowing an allied detachment of exactly 2 tanks for some other faction. The Beast Killer Vanquisher should get special mention as it's a legitimate threat to some of the nastier things in the world, with enough range to make return fire academic if you can score a good deployment.

Beyond that if you're going to be doing serious (and I mean serious) conversion work, the artillery platforms and other options are a joy and also quite powerful.

The superheavy options that exist in plastic as well have, well, more options than the 'standard' versions, of particular note the option for AV14 on the side which can be a big deal.

Finally the Trojan is the best thing in the book, followed by the manticore battery.

Thank you much Malamis for the info there.

Also, what are your thoughts on the Destroyer Tank Hunter? I'm looking for dedicated AT options for my Guard and it interests me (furthermore, it looks like something I could convert from the standard Russ kit fairly easily.)

 Cothonian wrote:
Also, what are your thoughts on the Destroyer Tank Hunter? I'm looking for dedicated AT options for my Guard and it interests me (furthermore, it looks like something I could convert from the standard Russ kit fairly easily.)

It sucks. A Vanquisher's STR 8 armorbane is better than STR 9 ordnance and twin-linked doesn't make up for the difference. It's especially bad compared to BS 4 command Vanquishers with coax heavy stubbers (near-guaranteed twin-linking the main gun) and beast hunter shells (instant death small blast) in an allied armored company detachment.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Cothonian wrote:
Also, what are your thoughts on the Destroyer Tank Hunter? I'm looking for dedicated AT options for my Guard and it interests me (furthermore, it looks like something I could convert from the standard Russ kit fairly easily.)

It sucks. A Vanquisher's STR 8 armorbane is better than STR 9 ordnance and twin-linked doesn't make up for the difference. It's especially bad compared to BS 4 command Vanquishers with coax heavy stubbers (near-guaranteed twin-linking the main gun) and beast hunter shells (instant death small blast) in an allied armored company detachment.

This.

If it was straight shot D with 1s on the D table being self inflicted injury it would be an absolute champion and entirely fluffy, but until IA1V3 or AM2.0 comes out it's wishful thinking.

For anti tank, go for Vultures - they have the mobility to get guaranteed side armour, and frequently rear armour shots with all kinds of goodies the turn they arrive. They also have the benefit of having actually good anti infantry/MC options in the same loadout.

 malamis wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Cothonian wrote:
Also, what are your thoughts on the Destroyer Tank Hunter? I'm looking for dedicated AT options for my Guard and it interests me (furthermore, it looks like something I could convert from the standard Russ kit fairly easily.)

It sucks. A Vanquisher's STR 8 armorbane is better than STR 9 ordnance and twin-linked doesn't make up for the difference. It's especially bad compared to BS 4 command Vanquishers with coax heavy stubbers (near-guaranteed twin-linking the main gun) and beast hunter shells (instant death small blast) in an allied armored company detachment.

This.

If it was straight shot D with 1s on the D table being self inflicted injury it would be an absolute champion and entirely fluffy, but until IA1V3 or AM2.0 comes out it's wishful thinking.

For anti tank, go for Vultures - they have the mobility to get guaranteed side armour, and frequently rear armour shots with all kinds of goodies the turn they arrive. They also have the benefit of having actually good anti infantry/MC options in the same loadout.

Vultures are mediocre anti-tank at best; they can get all of one shot at higher than S8 and don't have Ordnance/Armourbane on their side. They're flexible medium-unit hunters but don't usually do well against heavy/hard targets. I'd suggest Vanquishers or Deep Striking melta units over Vultures.

The Destroyer tank-hunter is an instance of power creep matching on, its cost hasn't been updated to reflect the new state of the game and it really needs to be. The 30k list has a Vindicator variant that's 30pts cheaper, has lower armour, a higher BS, and can fire three shots from the exact same gun, and a Sicaran variant for 30pts more with two S10 shots that force the target to snap-shot if penetrated regardless of other rules/effects (extra armour, living metal, being a superheavy...).

Punisher Vultures are pretty good at knocking out light/medium vehicles most of which have side around of 10 or 11.

AT punishers can have 8 Hunter Killer missiles and a twin linked lascannon which means they can be adequate vs anything that isn't AV 14 all around. Vanquishers by comparison can only have one S9 shot with a S8 armourbane per turn. So thats 160 points for the AT punisher with av 12/12/10 that is a flyer with vector dancer and strafing run... compared with a Vanquisher at lascannon at 165 (options of upgrades) or 145 (lack of options) all on the stock BS3 base.

It's horses for courses at the end of the day but vanquishers are already known for being rubbish AT vehicles outside the HQ and Elite option in the ABG list.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Vultures are mediocre anti-tank at best; they can get all of one shot at higher than S8 and don't have Ordnance/Armourbane on their side. They're flexible medium-unit hunters but don't usually do well against heavy/hard targets.

No, Vultures are nasty against tanks. If a punisher cannon Vulture gets into rear arc (and with a 36" move and two 90* pivots it very often will) an average tank is simply dead. You're stripping an average of 6 HP per turn against AV 10, 3 HP against AV 11. The only tanks the Vulture has trouble with are the very rare ones with high rear AV like the Land Raider, against anything else their only hope is to pray the Vulture gets shot down before it can get there.

The punisher point is true (and I have 3 of them for that reason), but the LC/HKM loadout is actually quite good for knights, so long as you use them in pairs. Vector Dancer means you can unload on both sides, forcing the shield to go on one side or the other, which in turn can decide which ones to blow the full HKM load on.

As for the vanquisher, unless you're taking beast killer shells for scaring everything, leave it at home.

 Peregrine wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Vultures are mediocre anti-tank at best; they can get all of one shot at higher than S8 and don't have Ordnance/Armourbane on their side. They're flexible medium-unit hunters but don't usually do well against heavy/hard targets.

No, Vultures are nasty against tanks. If a punisher cannon Vulture gets into rear arc (and with a 36" move and two 90* pivots it very often will) an average tank is simply dead. You're stripping an average of 6 HP per turn against AV 10, 3 HP against AV 11. The only tanks the Vulture has trouble with are the very rare ones with high rear AV like the Land Raider, against anything else their only hope is to pray the Vulture gets shot down before it can get there.

An average tank, with an exposed butt, far enough from the table edge you can fit behind it, without cover, and not butted up against LOS-blocking terrain or models. Also if you spend much time playing with Vultures you may find (as I have) that when your two 90-degree pivots must be before and after all of your forward movement, which must be in a straight line, you can't actually get whatever facing on whatever vehicle you choose from any position on the board.

The Vulture is a solid tool against medium/light vehicles, but depending on your opponent and your table it isn't a reliable and effective answer to all vehicles. If the OP were asking for a reliable and efficient tool that can engage a wide variety of targets the Punisher Vulture would be absolutely the first thing on my list, but when he's asking for a dedicated anti-tank tool the vehicle that's flummoxed by AV12 is rather further down my list of recommendations than a Vanquisher, melta-vet squad, or Vendetta.

Man that is a royal shame with the Destroyer Tank Hunter. I'll admit, I was really hoping for it to be a cheaper, turret-less Vanquisher.

Either way, Vanquishers are my favorite variant, coaxial Heavy Stubbers and Beast Hunter shells sounds like god's gift to me. Add cheap Inquisitorial psykers spamming divination on them just to make them more unnecessarily annoying.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
An average tank, with an exposed butt, far enough from the table edge you can fit behind it, without cover, and not butted up against LOS-blocking terrain or models.

Yes, those things are true, but if you're playing with enough terrain then parking in the back corner with your entire back arc against the table edge means turning the unit into a useless paperweight. If you want to make a meaningful impact on the game you have to move up to get shots, at which point the Vulture has space to come in behind the tanks. Unless of course you're talking about tanks with barrage weapons, but Manticores/Basilisks/etc have weak side AV that a Vulture can kill just fine.

Also if you spend much time playing with Vultures you may find (as I have) that when your two 90-degree pivots must be before and after all of your forward movement, which must be in a straight line, you can't actually get whatever facing on whatever vehicle you choose from any position on the board.

I've played with Vultures. In fact, the punisher cannon Vulture is my favorite unit, by far. And, while it may not get an auto-kill every turn, it's a pretty consistent anti-tank threat. And the alternative options have major weaknesses. A Vanquisher has a 50% chance to hit, and normally has to roll a single hit against the target's highest AV. That's a pretty low chance for a kill even when you do manage to line up a shot. The Vulture might have some trouble lining up its shot, but once it does it's a nearly 100% guaranteed* kill. Add in the fact that the Vulture is great against infantry while the Vanquisher is a single-role unit and the Vulture is a much better choice if you want to kill tanks.

*96% to kill an AV 10 3 HP tank, without counting the heavy bolter or any rolls on the damage table. And it's a 99% chance of stripping at least 2 HP.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Vultures are mediocre anti-tank at best; they can get all of one shot at higher than S8 and don't have Ordnance/Armourbane on their side. They're flexible medium-unit hunters but don't usually do well against heavy/hard targets.

No, Vultures are nasty against tanks. If a punisher cannon Vulture gets into rear arc (and with a 36" move and two 90* pivots it very often will) an average tank is simply dead. You're stripping an average of 6 HP per turn against AV 10, 3 HP against AV 11. The only tanks the Vulture has trouble with are the very rare ones with high rear AV like the Land Raider, against anything else their only hope is to pray the Vulture gets shot down before it can get there.

An average tank, with an exposed butt, far enough from the table edge you can fit behind it, without cover, and not butted up against LOS-blocking terrain or models. Also if you spend much time playing with Vultures you may find (as I have) that when your two 90-degree pivots must be before and after all of your forward movement, which must be in a straight line, you can't actually get whatever facing on whatever vehicle you choose from any position on the board.

The Vulture is a solid tool against medium/light vehicles, but depending on your opponent and your table it isn't a reliable and effective answer to all vehicles. If the OP were asking for a reliable and efficient tool that can engage a wide variety of targets the Punisher Vulture would be absolutely the first thing on my list, but when he's asking for a dedicated anti-tank tool the vehicle that's flummoxed by AV12 is rather further down my list of recommendations than a Vanquisher, melta-vet squad, or Vendetta.

By that logic guard don't have a single reliable AT unit. The Punisher Vulture is by far the most reliable tool in the shed for anything other than vehicles with AV12+ Side armour, most space marine tanks are AV 11 for example. Then add the fact the TWLC/HKM variant can deal with the heavier threats much better than the vanilla vanquisher.

Also concerning cover, if a unit is that deep in cover isn't it A) not doing that much and B) Equally as difficult for Vanquishers to take out?

 Cothonian wrote:
Man that is a royal shame with the Destroyer Tank Hunter. I'll admit, I was really hoping for it to be a cheaper, turret-less Vanquisher.

Either way, Vanquishers are my favorite variant, coaxial Heavy Stubbers and Beast Hunter shells sounds like god's gift to me. Add cheap Inquisitorial psykers spamming divination on them just to make them more unnecessarily annoying.

Twin linking your twin linked?

Get an SM conclave spamming 'we don't need line of sight, also cover isn't a thing any more' instead

Bonus points if you score Warpmetal Armour as well, for AV15 leman russes

In the realm of Cheaper Turretless, the Thunderer is a serious contender. it's 25 points less than the demolisher and all you lose is one almost always snapshooting heavy bolter and a turret. The latter can be a problem, but 25 points means , for example if you take a squadron of three thunderers instead of demolishers, you can afford a techpriest and enough servitors for 2+ repairs


So as to put some meat behind the flyer effectiveness discussion, here's some MathHammer-O-Matic output for median glances, assuming only 3 hkms and the twin linked lascannon fired by the LC/HKM Vulture, and the TL Punisher + Heavy Bolter from the P.Vulture. I haven't worked in selective snapshots into the program but this will do for now.

name av_10 av_11 av_12 av_13 av_14 av_15 av_ppg_low av_ppg_high 3TLLC Vendetta 2.25 1.88 1.5 1.13 0.75 0.38 92.67 276.67 Punisher Vulture 5.93 2.96 0 0 0 0 26 NULL LC/HKM Vulture 2.56 2.07 1.59 1.11 0.63 0.15 77 477

It shows that Av10 and 11 are HILARIOUSLY torn apart by the Punisher vulture compared to the alternative Vendetta (AM Codex price) and HKM/TLLC Vulture, whereas the TLLC Vulture is slightly better choice specifically for armour 12 than the vendetta, which given it will almost always have side armour on knights is exactly why I use them.

The ABG price Vendetta however is just filthy.

 malamis wrote:

Twin linking your twin linked?

Get an SM conclave spamming 'we don't need line of sight, also cover isn't a thing any more' instead

Bonus points if you score Warpmetal Armour as well, for AV15 leman russes

In the realm of Cheaper Turretless, the Thunderer is a serious contender. it's 25 points less than the demolisher and all you lose is one almost always snapshooting heavy bolter and a turret. The latter can be a problem, but 25 points means , for example if you take a squadron of three thunderers instead of demolishers, you can afford a techpriest and enough servitors for 2+ repairs

Oh yes, twin link ception My opponents will never see it coming!

Also, if the Divination Psykers happened to get the 5+ invuln power... Jokes aside though, over-buffing my Russ's with the SM Conclave sounds like too much fun. Maybe not practical, but fun.

Last but not least, Thunderer sounds very appealing.

 Cothonian wrote:

 malamis wrote:

Twin linking your twin linked?

Get an SM conclave spamming 'we don't need line of sight, also cover isn't a thing any more' instead

Bonus points if you score Warpmetal Armour as well, for AV15 leman russes

In the realm of Cheaper Turretless, the Thunderer is a serious contender. it's 25 points less than the demolisher and all you lose is one almost always snapshooting heavy bolter and a turret. The latter can be a problem, but 25 points means , for example if you take a squadron of three thunderers instead of demolishers, you can afford a techpriest and enough servitors for 2+ repairs

Oh yes, twin link ception My opponents will never see it coming!

Also, if the Divination Psykers happened to get the 5+ invuln power... Jokes aside though, over-buffing my Russ's with the SM Conclave sounds like too much fun. Maybe not practical, but fun.

Last but not least, Thunderer sounds very appealing.

Invisible, preferred enemy, twin linked, front armour 15 thunderers which also happen to have OBSEC are just a joy to behold
You can easily get 3 of them + conclave + techpriest + Trojan for PE for 720 pts, and an actual ABG CAD using that for less than 1250.