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With 2016 pretty much coming to a close and it being the first year in probably 25 that I didn't play a single tabletop wargame (other than some house rules solo test scenarios), I was curious if anyone else's interest in the hobby took a nose dive. For me, it was a combination of different things that led to this progressively worse gaming funk. I've supported multiple failed/failing games in a row for the past 3-4 years (Robotech, Heavy Gear, Halo Fleet Battles) while also simultaneously losing interest in several previously go-to mainstays (40k with 7th edition, X-wing for the past 3-4 waves)... combined with my FLGS suddenly and unexpectedly close down. I don't know if it's my own bias but I'm still a regular here at dakka but the forum community doesn't seem as energized as it was before. The Kickstarter honeymoon is over, GW has improved significantly as of late but I'm not sure if its too little too late to regain lost fans, and new games just don't seem to generate as much buzz here on dakka (like Dropfleet commander) but rather discussion just sticks within the respective news and/or general discussion thread. I genuinely felt like tabletop gaming was experiencing a renaissance a few years ago (in large part to the KS boom) but it feels that, like the housing bubble in 2008, it has burst. Ideas? I put a multiple choice poll at the top with answers for both you personally as a gamer and your feelings on the overall wargaming community overall (which may be different).

It's still fun for me, but it's definitely taken a nose dive for me. Prices have come down, but are still high, plus lack of time and money due to new kid on the way.

I still enjoy the occasional game with friends, but nowhere near what I used to. Doesn't help I've had a huge interest in boardgames lately.

I've seen a bit of a shift to board games, rpgs and hybrid board/tabletop games a la xwing, dust etc.

Still playing the same games from the 80's and 90's for the most part plus the odd game of Battlegroup.

Same ol', same ol' here.

For me I still love the concept but I've lost a lot of interest due to current gamer-culture. I fell in love with something in the late 80s that is in no way supported or represented today.

I find my community is also a lot less into wargaming and more into games that are shorter, require less of an investment in money and time (like board games or video games or CCGs) than it was in 2005.

I'm still playing the same number of game and my club is still going strong. My tastes have changed somewhat, I feel I enjoy smaller, quicker to play and more tactical games than giant messy lots of players a side games.

I had a more in depth response all typed up, but... Meh!

My level of interest and purchasing for Warhammer has stayed the same, but unfortunately the local community has mostly dissolved. There are a small few who try to reinvigorate the 40K community from time to time (myself included), but sadly it never really seems to take off like we'd like it to.

Still sad about AoS really (don't like the OTT style overall and the background is too 'Epic'). I enjoyed the old style humorous Warhammer. I lost a lot of ground when Mordheim and Warmaster ceased and with the end of WFB I haven't really been able to scratch the same itch. With all the new names and so on, it just doesn't feel the same. Keep on thinking about Hobbit/LotR but price and general apathy is holding me back

I'm still love collecting models, but I've begun to realize that rule systems don't hold nearly as much interest for me. It's sometime fun to find out how X fares against Y, but I'm just not driven to play game after game against an opponent. Like 4E D&D burned my passion for RPGs, the current state of 40K has really put a dent in my enthusiasm for war games.

My FLGS seems to be thriving with a variety of games and tournaments - 40K, AoS, Warmachine, X-Wing just to name a few.

 warboss wrote:
With 2016 pretty much coming to a close and it being the first year in probably 25 that I didn't play a single tabletop wargame (other than some house rules solo test scenarios), I was curious if anyone else's interest in the hobby took a nose dive. For me, it was a combination of different things that led to this progressively worse gaming funk. I've supported multiple failed/failing games in a row for the past 3-4 years (Robotech, Heavy Gear, Halo Fleet Battles) while also simultaneously losing interest in several previously go-to mainstays (40k with 7th edition, X-wing for the past 3-4 waves)... combined with my FLGS suddenly and unexpectedly close down. I don't know if it's my own bias but I'm still a regular here at dakka but the forum community doesn't seem as energized as it was before. The Kickstarter honeymoon is over, GW has improved significantly as of late but I'm not sure if its too little too late to regain lost fans, and new games just don't seem to generate as much buzz here on dakka (like Dropfleet commander) but rather discussion just sticks within the respective news and/or general discussion thread. I genuinely felt like tabletop gaming was experiencing a renaissance a few years ago (in large part to the KS boom) but it feels that, like the housing bubble in 2008, it has burst. Ideas? I put a multiple choice poll at the top with answers for both you personally as a gamer and your feelings on the overall wargaming community overall (which may be different).

Dakka really is a 40k forum first and foremost, and anything else you get to read on here is usually just 40k fans who happen to like it as well. It goes to reason that anything aside from 40k (or things that can be used for 40k) are not going to generate as much interest.

Elsewhere there's plenty of forum activity for other systems, you just don't see it on dakka. X-Wing has a pretty big forum of its own on FFG, and even forums like /tg/ keep pretty dedicated threads for games like Flames of War and Dropzone Commander.

As for in general, I think wargaming is gaining speed, but it's at a critical time for 40k. Many people want to buy into it, as I found out at my local store. When kill team came out, a few other old players and myself started playing games on a whim to try out the system. Many card gamers and RPG players, upon seeing us play a version of 40k that didn't cost $400 to get into, immediately expressed interest and I think we're sitting at about 8 new players (when we only had 4 to start with) Granted they're taking a while to teach and coordinate for game days but that's wargaming in general, it's always like herding cats

If GW gets its gak together and drops a proper 8th edition, it'll give 40k a desperately needed kick in the pants and could reverse their downward slide. Many old players, myself included, have expressed that we WANT to like 40k, it's just that it feels like the rules (and GW to a degree) were actively pushing us away.

I perceive that wargaming has stayed in the same levels overall around me, personally I play more but it is only Infinity, that is not a bad thing in my opinion mind you.

Less chances to play but more interesting things coming out

The FLGS where I used to play at ran weekly events where they would see about 50 participants weekly, sometimes up to 120. For about 5 years, there were an average of 3 new players coming into the store weekly - at least what they could track.

The number of new players coming into the store now averages to zero. He's running niche events, like 2nd edition and 4th edition nights, to get the purists out. But sales of RC cars are exceeding miniature sales, and he's thinking about getting rid of all but 2 of the gaming tables to make room for more books.

Maybe it just takes time to turn things around, but I think 7th edition did a lot to upset the sense of community in the game. There were a few moments where it felt like GW's pursuit of revenue was really an attempt to kill the community.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
Less chances to play but more interesting things coming out

Story of my life.

About the same for me. Still collecting, painting and playing.
Always seems to be something new on the horizon in terms of 40k anyways that keeps me coming back (IKs, Admech, GS etc).

Maybe it just takes time to turn things around, but I think 7th edition did a lot to upset the sense of community in the game. There were a few moments where it felt like GW's pursuit of revenue was really an attempt to kill the community.

7th seemed to upset the tournament community which is what congregates at many FLGS. Its no surprise that the tournament community largely found other things to do with their time as 7th edition did not cater to what they wanted out of a game.

auticus wrote:7th seemed to upset the tournament community which is what congregates at many FLGS. Its no surprise that the tournament community largely found other things to do with their time as 7th edition did not cater to what they wanted out of a game.

I was never much of a tourney gamer (only a few local FLGS tournies in roughly 15 years of 40k play) but I wasn't happy with 7th. I was, however, a by the book gamer and the changes that completely flaunted accepted game rules and balance in play for the 25 years I've been wargaming rubbed me the wrong. If you're playing in an ostensibly points based system and get a benefit (extra rules/abilities or models), you should pay for it in points. The change borne of pure greed on the part of gw to amend that to "pay for it with extra $$ spent buying models" didn't agree with any semblence of balance. 40k has never been perfectly balanced in terms of costs of various units (some chronically, under, others chronically over costed) and the ability to add even more weighted benefits with clearly unequal formations makes it worse. I'd have grumbled a bit but adapted if they had ported over ALL of the formation mechanic from apocalypse including the points costs of the formations themselves. Again, I'm not a tourney gamer but I didn't want the outcome of my only weekly or monthly game even more weighted to one side before the first die is rolled. Plenty of casual pick up game players were plenty pissed with the changes to both 40k and AOS that prioritized product sales way above player experience.

MrMoustaffa wrote:
Dakka really is a 40k forum first and foremost, and anything else you get to read on here is usually just 40k fans who happen to like it as well. It goes to reason that anything aside from 40k (or things that can be used for 40k) are not going to generate as much interest.

Elsewhere there's plenty of forum activity for other systems, you just don't see it on dakka. X-Wing has a pretty big forum of its own on FFG, and even forums like /tg/ keep pretty dedicated threads for games like Flames of War and Dropzone Commander.

True.. but I'm subjectively comparing apples to apples in that I'm using Dakka as a metric for both before and now. I never expected any other game to surpass 40k as the #1 topic of discussion but I find myself for the past few years hanging out and posting in specifically non-40k subforums and it feels to me that those topics are less active now than they were a year or two ago. I didn't mean to say that no discussion is happening anywhere (or that none is happening here) but rather that it feels down.

If GW gets its gak together and drops a proper 8th edition, it'll give 40k a desperately needed kick in the pants and could reverse their downward slide. Many old players, myself included, have expressed that we WANT to like 40k, it's just that it feels like the rules (and GW to a degree) were actively pushing us away.

I don't think they'll get those lost gamers back. Some will of course buy the boxed sets that they've been waiting for for decades (deathwatch, genestealer cult, plastic HH sets) but I suspect that's more of a game hoarding "gimme!" reaction on the part of grumpy old men rather than a return to active 40k efforts. I'll admit that I was tempted by the recent offerings but ultimately my dislike of the 7th ed rules (with which I'd ultimately use them) won over. New free and unbalanced formations keep coming out so I don't see the army building mechanic of 6th/7th edition returning to sanity anytime soon. If they came out with 8th tomorrow, would they publish a pdf with EVERY formation and its associated cost? I doubt it... and that would be my personal hurdle for them to overcome along with excising apoc back out of the game. There's very little chance of that happening. YMMV. I do think though that those who really don't like the changes have already left for the most part and that GW won't continue to shrink their player base. When I talked to new players about a year after 7th came out, they really didn't seem to mind the change in scope and increase balance disparity that the new mechanics brought and were fine with it. They didn't mind facing fliers, giant templates and D-weapons, superheavies, and hundreds of points of models that were free (of course they were also using all of those aforementioned things as well though).

In the end, my dislike of 40k, while important to my own personal recent disinterest in the hobby, is not the only contributing factor or even the majority of the reason. X-wing card bloat and switch to EU ships I don't care for, my store closing down, and a string of failed games that I backed with both time and money are roughly equal in importance (maybe moreso for my FLGS closing down). The results from the poll seem pretty mixed with roughly equal numbers for each broad category so far.

Y'know, as someone above pointed out, this is primarily a 40K site. That several other games are getting their own forums I believe says something of the state of 40K.

That the owners of this site have branched out to create their own game, I think speaks volumes of the state of 40K.

But, beyond 40K, I think wargaming is in a fantastic state overall, and it seems to be growing and thriving.

 Stormonu wrote:
Y'know, as someone above pointed out, this is primarily a 40K site. That several other games are getting their own forums I believe says something of the state of 40K.

That the owners of this site have branched out to create their own game, I think speaks volumes of the state of 40K.

But, beyond 40K, I think wargaming is in a fantastic state overall, and it seems to be growing and thriving.

Does it? I'd say it's more a case of "The more popular something becomes, the more pretenders it has". Sure, I'd say DakkaDakka and others have stepped in to fill the void 40k has left, but I doubt that means the end of 40K as some seem to claim.

I feel like wargaming as a whole is kind of on the downward trend. A lot of boardgames are coming up to fill the niche of strategy games that wargaming had traditionally led in, and gatekeeping in wargaming is about as bad as when I started.

For me, 40k has taken over the front burner of my primary hobby, but mostly because I am a collector and painter. I want to play games with my armies, but I won't be bothered too much if it's only every few months or so.

 auticus wrote:
For me I still love the concept but I've lost a lot of interest due to current gamer-culture. I fell in love with something in the late 80s that is in no way supported or represented today.

I find my community is also a lot less into wargaming and more into games that are shorter, require less of an investment in money and time (like board games or video games or CCGs) than it was in 2005.

This is what I am seeing as well. I have to drive 40-ish minutes to my preferred game store because the store 5 minutes away is mostly just a card shop. Yet, even at my preferred store, there seems to be a lot less miniature wargaming going on and a lot more board games and quick gratification "types" of games, such a board games, CCGs, and pre-painted games like X-Wing.

Yeah. One reason X Wing is as hugely popular as it is besides its namesake is the fact that people don't have to assemble or paint the models.

That is huge.

 Alex Kolodotschko wrote:
I've seen a bit of a shift to board games, rpgs and hybrid board/tabletop games a la xwing, dust etc.

This has been my experience also. Much more crossover from miniature wargames to board games than there ever used to be. Think a lot of this is due to the quality of these new releases (Armada/X-Wing, CMoN games, FFG etc.) and also how accessible they are.

What's interesting to me is whether these releases are cannibalising any of the Historicals market (the home of the nicely presented, well laid out and 'traditional' wargame), or whether they are just impinging on the sci-fi & fantasy miniature wargames market.

I would say the level of interest in miniature wargaming is up overall. To look beyond 40K the historical scene always has a new rule set coming out covering one period or another and there are lots of quality manufactures putting out really nice plastics for all periods. I would say skirmish games are the hot thing right now (Frostgrave, Sharp Practice Lion/Dragon Rampant). For me personally I was interested in getting into medieval historicals so I picked up Lion Rampant, I liked the rules so I purchased Dragon Rampant which drove me to start buying figures and now I use those figs for both Rampant and AoS (just entered the AoS turney at LVO, never participated in a fantasy event before).

As for 40K, I've became an avid player in 2000 and I can't remember a year where a big chunk of the internet wasn't proclaiming this to be the "end" of 40K and GW. In both the locations I've lived in the last 6 months the 40K community was active and growing with new players coming in and older players coming back. LVO has over 400 people playing in their Championship tournament.

So, personally I think some of the negativity is misplaced as I see this hobby as healthy and growing.

X-Wing. That is all, ladies and gents.

I have never gamed as much in my life, even when I was single and had a lot of disposable income. I can repaint my ships to my heart's content, and my opponents still bring painted minis to the table, so it always looks great.

people are spending a bit more on a much wider variety of wargames but most of the growth has been in boardgames,

so we've got a few more gamer split over a much wider variety of systems so if you're only playing one (or two) if may seem that gaming is dropping off as it's going to be harder to get a game

(especially as a bunch of the people who wargame may also boardgame and do so in bars/pubs and homes where they couldn't wargame on large table)

While I agree that board games have seen a resurgence in the past 5 years (especially those with miniatures as components) both at retail and especially with crowdfunding, I've seen folks here in the thread refer to xwing as a board game and I don't personally agree with that classification. While there are plenty of boardgames that are blurring the traditional lines by including higher quality game pieces (as opposed to the previous lower quality typically and frequently abstracted minis), X-wing to me is firmly a minis game. YMMV. Either way, it did seem to bring in board gamers and those who don't want to participate in the hobby aspect at a rate not seen since the highs of WOTC's prepainted plastics era.

Agreed, I'd classify X-Wing as a wargame not a boardgame as well.

Makes me wonder how folks would classify the old hex-based games with chits (like Advanced Third Reich), or if they feel Star Fleet Battles is a wargame...

 Stormonu wrote:
Agreed, I'd classify X-Wing as a wargame not a boardgame as well.

Makes me wonder how folks would classify the old hex-based games with chits (like Advanced Third Reich), or if they feel Star Fleet Battles is a wargame...

SFB is a weird example IMO. The core set is produced as a board game but the playerbase's actual effort and the subsequent marketing/product development are firmly in the wargame category. For me, it boils down to (although not exclusively limited to) how much prominence the miniatures get overall.

For me the line between board game and miniture war game has always been defined by the area of play. A miniture war game has no defined play area (there are of course recommend table sizes) but if I wanted to play x wing on an L shaped table or a really huge table there is nothing in the rules that prevent me from doing do. A board game has an integral and defined play area (the board).

So even if a game has lots of miniatures if it's played on a defined board I classify it as a board game.