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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






thekingofkings wrote:If the Russians were really serious about this, one or two of their mechanized battallions and this "rebellion" is over. Then the business of wiping out ISIS can commence in earnest. Now is a good time if you are a Syrian who does not want to live under Assad to move.

Don't need another Afghanistan


Whole different animal, you arent trying to occupy a hostile country, just kick the crap outta jackasses. 2 battallions tops. go in, wreck face, go home, drink vodka.
   
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Room

Whole different animal, you arent trying to occupy a hostile country, just kick the crap outta jackasses. 2 battallions tops. go in, wreck face, go home, drink vodka.

Similar words spoken by Afghanese shurav in 1979

Mordant 92nd 'Acid Dogs'
The Lost and Damned
Inquisition
 
   
Made in us
Wise Ethereal with Bodyguard




Catskills in NYS

And somehow I don't think a foreign army coming in and fighting would help the divisions in Syria that caused the civil war.

Homosexuality is the #1 cause of gay marriage.
 kronk wrote:
Every pizza is a personal sized pizza if you try hard enough and believe in yourself.
 sebster wrote:
Yes, indeed. What a terrible piece of cultural imperialism it is for me to say that a country shouldn't murder its own citizens
 BaronIveagh wrote:
Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 Freakazoitt wrote:
Whole different animal, you arent trying to occupy a hostile country, just kick the crap outta jackasses. 2 battallions tops. go in, wreck face, go home, drink vodka.

Similar words spoken by Afghanese shurav in 1979


The afghans could hide in pakistan, protected by the pakistani army, the syrian rebels and isis have no where to run/
the afghans were supported by china and the US in considerably more material than anyone in syria
the syrian rebels and isis hold land, and are basically going to have to stand and fight, they have little popular support, the afghans did not try to hold land and did have popular support.
head to head, the afghans were consistently defeated by superior soviet troops, the syrians are even less capable of standing up to the current russian army.

it took 8 years and soviet economy to drive out the red army, the afghans could not have acheived that alone, the syrians on the other hand have to contend with the reality that there is a lot of popular support for Assad. A russian withdrawal would not topple him the way it did Najibullah

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/14 03:47:35


 
   
Made in eu
Fixture of Dakka






Glasgow, Scotland

Wasn't this whole mess started because the West wanted to intervene in toppling Assad, but the Russians kept vetoing any involvement?

The West originally supported ISIS, but pulled out and backed other groups. The war continued for much longer than it had to due to a lack of outside intervention, and then eventually the Russians decided to extend it further by backing the other side (who then claimed the moral high ground that their side weren't "terrorists" as Assad continued to use chemical weapons on civilians...).

Its odd how the media's spun this. The rebels are now dwarfed by ISIS in their vision and seen as radicals. Meanwhile Assad's seen as the better of two evils - despite the whole thing starting because he's a dictator and was committing human rights abuses... All swept under the carpet because Putin didn't want to lose his friend in the Middle East (given his own abuses I suppose its easy for the state media over there to ignore who they're in bed with).

I'd have thought we'd have seen more backing for the Peshmerga by the West, but that's not how politics work. Ideally they'd have formed their own state now so we could have 1948 all over against the Middle East flipped its gak. Though saying that, the Russian media has weirdly lauded the apparent killing of Mossad (and Western agents) operating in Syria. So much for being "allies". But, well, I guess everyone's a "terrorist" if they oppose the Kremlin.
   
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upd:

Iranian battalions violated the agreement and began to fire at the insurgents with artillery, preventing the moving of rebels and their civilian supportes on buses to Idlib area
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/dec/14/aleppo-residents-evacuation-uncertainty-ceasefire-deal-assad

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/12/14 12:06:21


Mordant 92nd 'Acid Dogs'
The Lost and Damned
Inquisition
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

 Wyrmalla wrote:
Wasn't this whole mess started because the West wanted to intervene in toppling Assad, but the Russians kept vetoing any involvement?

The West originally supported ISIS, but pulled out and backed other groups. The war continued for much longer than it had to due to a lack of outside intervention, and then eventually the Russians decided to extend it further by backing the other side (who then claimed the moral high ground that their side weren't "terrorists" as Assad continued to use chemical weapons on civilians...).

Its odd how the media's spun this. The rebels are now dwarfed by ISIS in their vision and seen as radicals. Meanwhile Assad's seen as the better of two evils - despite the whole thing starting because he's a dictator and was committing human rights abuses... All swept under the carpet because Putin didn't want to lose his friend in the Middle East (given his own abuses I suppose its easy for the state media over there to ignore who they're in bed with).

I'd have thought we'd have seen more backing for the Peshmerga by the West, but that's not how politics work. Ideally they'd have formed their own state now so we could have 1948 all over against the Middle East flipped its gak. Though saying that, the Russian media has weirdly lauded the apparent killing of Mossad (and Western agents) operating in Syria. So much for being "allies". But, well, I guess everyone's a "terrorist" if they oppose the Kremlin.


No this whole mess was not started by the West unless you consider the British breaking up the Ottoman Empire to be the issue.
People rebelled against a dictatorship. The dictatorship fought back. No different than what has occurred there before, just that the rebels had more support than before.
Murderous dictatorship very bad, except of course if its replaced by a murderous religious regime (aka ISIL, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan in two years).

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in ru
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del

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/19 03:55:38


Mordant 92nd 'Acid Dogs'
The Lost and Damned
Inquisition
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






New Orleans, LA

 Freakazoitt wrote:

Hundred thousand people with houses destroyed, hungry, many of them wounded. They need humanitarian aid. Urgently. I don't see any help from West right now.


Because Russian morons keep blowing up aid trucks.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/sep/19/syria-ceasefire-is-over-says-countrys-military

DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
 
   
Made in us
Rough Rider with Boomstick






Well, looking over the first few posts in this thread specifically, the veritable web of factions battling it out is far more complicated than I thought it was


You say Fiery Crash! I say Dynamic Entry!

*Increases Game Point Limit by 100*: Tau get two Crisis Suits and a Firewarrior. Imperial Guard get two infantry companies, artillery support, and APCs. 
   
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/19 03:56:02


Mordant 92nd 'Acid Dogs'
The Lost and Damned
Inquisition
 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Glasgow, Scotland

 Freakazoitt wrote:


No, it's not the reason. The reason is - they don't want to send aid as the Assad there now instead of moderate terrorists.


Oh, so the Russians aren't bombing aid convoys then (and damn well know they're doing it)? Sure...

Re: Assad's not the good guy here, no matter how much the media plays him as the better of two evils.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






New Orleans, LA

Agreed. Assad is a dick, and Russia needs to stop bombing convoys. Too much Vodka, I guess.

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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2020/12/19 03:56:31


Mordant 92nd 'Acid Dogs'
The Lost and Damned
Inquisition
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






New Orleans, LA

 Freakazoitt wrote:

 kronk wrote:
Agreed. Assad is a dick, and Russia needs to stop bombing convoys. Too much Vodka, I guess.

Obama is a dick


I'm sure he can be. But at least UN convoys didn't get bombed by US forces on his watch.

Nor does me make shirtless calendars.

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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/19 03:57:10


Mordant 92nd 'Acid Dogs'
The Lost and Damned
Inquisition
 
   
Made in fr
Inquisitorial Keeper of the Xenobanks





France

I have to agree with Freakazoitt: without Assad, it will be another Libya.
It took what, almost 10 years to make Iraqi relatively safe again ? Afganistan isn't really safe yet, Lybia is a mess, and you would like to destabilize Syria even further ?
You have to understand: I care more about The West than syrian people. If Assad stays, it is better for us in the long term.

Only the Russian try to help the seculare people. Who want another islamic dictator ? Don't you remember Egypt before El Sissi ?
Every time an arabian dictator dies, a muslim dictator rises. Every time it happens, terrorists come here and kill us. It has to stop.

I'm glad someone is helping Assad, at last. However, I'm sad my country isn't helping him. I don't know for your country, but here in France media show Russia as the absolute devil, killing civilian, supporting terrorists and crushing Democracy.
There isn't a single piece of informations neutral on the TV.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2016/12/15 19:07:25


   
Made in us
Never Forget Isstvan!





Chicago

Well considering Assad used gas, his soldiers are currently executing civilians and the russians have been using dumb bombs hitting hospitals, medical supply conveys I am pretty sure both deserve the title of devil

Ustrello paints- 30k, 40k multiple armies
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/614742.page 
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka






Glasgow, Scotland

 godardc wrote:
I have to agree with Freakazoitt: without Assad, it will be another Libya.
It took what, almost 10 years to make Iraqi relatively safe again ? Afganistan isn't really safe yet, Lybia is a mess, and you would like to destabilize Syria even further ?
You have to understand: I care more about The West than syrian people. If Assad stays, it is better for us in the long term.

Only the Russian try to help the seculare people. Who want another islamic dictator ? Don't you remember Egypt before El Sissi ?
Every time an arabian dictator dies, a muslim dictator rises. Every time it happens, terrorists come here and kill us. It has to stop.

I'm glad someone is helping Assad, at last. However, I'm sad my country isn't helping him. I don't know for your country, but here in France media show Russia as the absolute devil, killing civilian, supporting terrorists and crushing Democracy.
There isn't a single piece of informations neutral on the TV.


So, allow one human rights violating dictator to stay in power to spite another from potentially taking over? Right...

We could have had another Iraq, but no, instead we're getting another ...well, Iraq - just a repeat of the first time around where we left the dictator in charge. That went well didn't it?

Not to sugar coat things, but yes the media is biased. However, there's not that many ways you can spin that either Assad's a war criminal, or that the Russian government - besides enabling these actions (and committing a few themselves) are also all round donkey caves - or will be ignore their anti-gay agenda or their tendency to invade their neighbours without provocation (wait, or was it to get some more Living Space...).

   
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Sounds like there are no good guys in charge, just people getting hurt.

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
Zealous Shaolin




England

 Freakazoitt wrote:
Hundred thousand people with houses destroyed, hungry, many of them wounded. They need humanitarian aid. Urgently. I don't see any help from West right now. These people istantly forget thins.


Completely uncalled for; grow up.

Despite your politicised whinging and baseless - not to mention wholly undeserved - accusations, people like them are actually trying to help make the world a better place. All you seem to care about is spreading propaganda for Dear Leader Putin. You mention the suffering, sure, but seemingly only ever as an excuse to bash the West.

Also, Sputnik, which is owned by the Russian government, is not a good alternative to "biased" Western media, which actually routinely investigates and reports on crimes committed by their own countries and has a variety of different viewpoints, depending on which specific publication we're talking about.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/15 23:56:37


 
   
Made in gb
Keeper of the Holy Orb of Antioch





avoiding the lorax on Crion

 godardc wrote:
I have to agree with Freakazoitt: without Assad, it will be another Libya.
It took what, almost 10 years to make Iraqi relatively safe again ? Afganistan isn't really safe yet, Lybia is a mess, and you would like to destabilize Syria even further ?
You have to understand: I care more about The West than syrian people. If Assad stays, it is better for us in the long term.

Only the Russian try to help the seculare people. Who want another islamic dictator ? Don't you remember Egypt before El Sissi ?
Every time an arabian dictator dies, a muslim dictator rises. Every time it happens, terrorists come here and kill us. It has to stop.

I'm glad someone is helping Assad, at last. However, I'm sad my country isn't helping him. I don't know for your country, but here in France media show Russia as the absolute devil, killing civilian, supporting terrorists and crushing Democracy.
There isn't a single piece of informations neutral on the TV.


Agreed. Assad is bad. But the resulting chaos of no Assad is worse. Lybia 2 cannot happen.

West worked with Stalin to fight a greater enemy. Is this no different. We don,t have to like him. But some enemies mean you have to work with far less than nice people..

Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.

"May the odds be ever in your favour"

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.

FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.  
   
Made in ru
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/19 03:58:03


Mordant 92nd 'Acid Dogs'
The Lost and Damned
Inquisition
 
   
Made in th
Boom! Leman Russ Commander




New Zealand

 Wyrmalla wrote:
 godardc wrote:
I have to agree with Freakazoitt: without Assad, it will be another Libya.
It took what, almost 10 years to make Iraqi relatively safe again ? Afganistan isn't really safe yet, Lybia is a mess, and you would like to destabilize Syria even further ?
You have to understand: I care more about The West than syrian people. If Assad stays, it is better for us in the long term.

Only the Russian try to help the seculare people. Who want another islamic dictator ? Don't you remember Egypt before El Sissi ?
Every time an arabian dictator dies, a muslim dictator rises. Every time it happens, terrorists come here and kill us. It has to stop.

I'm glad someone is helping Assad, at last. However, I'm sad my country isn't helping him. I don't know for your country, but here in France media show Russia as the absolute devil, killing civilian, supporting terrorists and crushing Democracy.
There isn't a single piece of informations neutral on the TV.

We could have had another Iraq, but no, instead we're getting another ...well, Iraq - just a repeat of the first time around where we left the dictator in charge. That went well didn't it?




It went a lot better than the second time around and we went `full measure`. That same strategy worked wonders in Lybia too. Maybe the west should stop exporting it's broken political system to parts of the world that aren't interested in it.

5000
 
   
Made in au
The Dread Evil Lord Varlak





I think people get caught up in the military victory on the ground, and forget the bigger strategic picture. Russia's place in this conflict is now tied directly to the hip of Assad, a guy who kicked this civil war off by torturing and murdering protesters. Assad's regime is fundamentally non-viable, even if it wins the war. Russia is now tied directly to Assad, and so it becomes hard to see how long term they are going to keep their ties to the country. Russia's actions here remind me a bit of the US involvement in the Iranian coup - while at the time it secured immediate geo-political interests, in the long run all it did was guarantee a hostile population for generations to come.


 thekingofkings wrote:
the syrian rebels and isis hold land, and are basically going to have to stand and fight, they have little popular support, the afghans did not try to hold land and did have popular support.


What? While ISIL has little popular support, the various elements of under the umbrella 'FSA' have considerable popular support in their own pockets. Their issue is a lack of co-ordination.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 jhe90 wrote:
Agreed. Assad is bad. But the resulting chaos of no Assad is worse.


We've got a lot of history, particularly in the mid-east, of supporting people who maintain power through the use of force alone. These people don't stop chaos, they just murder people for a period of time in order to delay chaos.

And when the use of violence is as unrestrained as what Assad did, the end is near.

West worked with Stalin to fight a greater enemy. Is this no different. We don,t have to like him. But some enemies mean you have to work with far less than nice people..


Through famine and murder, Stalin is responsible for something in the region of 40 million deaths so I'm not sure that's the best example to use. And more than that, before Barbarossa there was no alliance, and the alliance ended rapidly after the fall of Berlin.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/16 07:34:38


“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”

Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something. 
   
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/12/19 03:58:32


Mordant 92nd 'Acid Dogs'
The Lost and Damned
Inquisition
 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

The Holodomor is another bunch of who knows how many millions.

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2020/12/19 03:58:52


Mordant 92nd 'Acid Dogs'
The Lost and Damned
Inquisition
 
   
Made in gb
Keeper of the Holy Orb of Antioch





avoiding the lorax on Crion

 sebster wrote:
I think people get caught up in the military victory on the ground, and forget the bigger strategic picture. Russia's place in this conflict is now tied directly to the hip of Assad, a guy who kicked this civil war off by torturing and murdering protesters. Assad's regime is fundamentally non-viable, even if it wins the war. Russia is now tied directly to Assad, and so it becomes hard to see how long term they are going to keep their ties to the country. Russia's actions here remind me a bit of the US involvement in the Iranian coup - while at the time it secured immediate geo-political interests, in the long run all it did was guarantee a hostile population for generations to come.


 thekingofkings wrote:
the syrian rebels and isis hold land, and are basically going to have to stand and fight, they have little popular support, the afghans did not try to hold land and did have popular support.


What? While ISIL has little popular support, the various elements of under the umbrella 'FSA' have considerable popular support in their own pockets. Their issue is a lack of co-ordination.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 jhe90 wrote:
Agreed. Assad is bad. But the resulting chaos of no Assad is worse.


We've got a lot of history, particularly in the mid-east, of supporting people who maintain power through the use of force alone. These people don't stop chaos, they just murder people for a period of time in order to delay chaos.

And when the use of violence is as unrestrained as what Assad did, the end is near.

West worked with Stalin to fight a greater enemy. Is this no different. We don,t have to like him. But some enemies mean you have to work with far less than nice people..


Through famine and murder, Stalin is responsible for something in the region of 40 million deaths so I'm not sure that's the best example to use. And more than that, before Barbarossa there was no alliance, and the alliance ended rapidly after the fall of Berlin.


Well...the UK, US. Shipped massive amounts onf weapons to the Soviets in WW2. At high cost and through some of harshest sea conditions on earth.
When we did supply Stalin, we supplied Stalin heavily at the breaking point.

We did even if for a short time work with a very dark leader to defeat a greater foe.
I ser no difference in backing Assad vs ISIS, vs terrorism and driving Islamic extremists out of power.

There a evil that needs to be crushed, broken and ground into the dust of history.

The FSA and many others are just as bad as the rest. Assad is best of a bad set.
Least he not been declaring war on all his neighbors.

Unlike a certain bunch f looks in raqqa.

Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.

"May the odds be ever in your favour"

Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.

FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all.  
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

 Freakazoitt wrote:
About 2-3 millions. So, in total 4-5 mln victims of Stalin. But of course not 40 million. Not justifying him, just want correct numbers


2-3 million in the Holodomor is the absolute bare minimum. You ARE justifying, or at least downplaying, Stalin by running with the absolute unlikely minimum. 7-8 million for the 32-33 famines alone is a more reasonable number, so we're already higher than your "correct numbers" from that one genocide alone.

EDIT: Just for clarity, I think the 40 million figure is a bit high; quick googling puts most estimates somewhere between 15 to 20 million.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/12/16 11:25:28


For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
 
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