Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I dont think chaos is the "lowest tier". I mean ITC rankings states that is false. Its actually more like CSM are sitting at the middle of road with alot of codex's behind them and just as many ahead. And this is without traitors hate. Chaos can put the hurt on when fielded correctly. The problem is the list of units/formations we have to do this is very small. Nerf or no nerf, the Heldrake is still a insane flyer for its points. The raptor talon is overlooked for the disorganized charge, but its really, REALLY good. Our psychic game is top notch and we have some hard hitting assault options (if you can get them into CC). People rave about Oblits (i find them 25 points overcosted). And now we get rules for renegade knights as allies. Sure we have a load of stinker choices (bezerkers, 1k sons) but once you find out what those are its a simple matter of not taking them.

I dont think any other faction needs its Forge World additions more than CSM. Forgeworld can actually make the faction playable in a decently competitive level. Its not a faction for those without cash. And if you are not prepared to spend it, then its probably not a faction one should be looking at. But dakka tends to be a bit reactionary. People speak on things as that every meta and every game is against 4 wraith knights and scat spam. This is just not the case. So when people say go with what you like, thats about the best advice you are going to get here.

Chaos is impressive to model, converse (any demon touch on humans as well any mutation you could imagine) and paint.

And a cool looking army



But his rules are really really bad on the table jajajjaja

SaltySeaDog wrote:

I wanted to field CSM as I like the lore & the models- but after doing some initial research, it seems that CSM aren't popular right now, are going through some sort of 'rough patch' in the evolution of the rules, and even have many poor unit choices compared to other armies. In brief, I feel like their glory days are passed and (for the time being, at least) they've been overtaken by others. Is this accurate?

This is all I needed to read. Yes, collect CSMs - there is no point collecting something your heart isn't really set on. Codex power levels come and go, but the glory of Chaos is eternal and everlasting! Join us in the Long War, and you will stand atop the walls of Terra as the corpse-god is cast from his gilded throne as his empire crumbles to dust around him! Death to the False Emperor!

If you're using just the Codex: Chaos Space Marines, you might have trouble competing even in casual settings, but there have been a LOT of releases that can add some minor buffs.

The top tier armies are just too far ahead at this point, but if you start adding the Supplements you can make a fairly competitive list; Traitors Hate is actually pretty decent.

I realize this next idea usually gets shot down by mouth-foaming "thats not CSM!!@#!" rage, but if you are willing to add Forgeworld and/or FW Renegade stuff you can actually make an army that CAN compete on the higher levels.

The other option is to add Daemons. Back in the famous 3.5CSM codex the Daemons were right in the book and even now they work well together.

Disagree. they compete well. The Traitors Hate supplement did a lot for them. It's a must have.

Table wrote:
I dont think chaos is the "lowest tier". I mean ITC rankings states that is false. Its actually more like CSM are sitting at the middle of road with alot of codex's behind them and just as many ahead. And this is without traitors hate. Chaos can put the hurt on when fielded correctly. The problem is the list of units/formations we have to do this is very small. Nerf or no nerf, the Heldrake is still a insane flyer for its points. The raptor talon is overlooked for the disorganized charge, but its really, REALLY good. Our psychic game is top notch and we have some hard hitting assault options (if you can get them into CC). People rave about Oblits (i find them 25 points overcosted). And now we get rules for renegade knights as allies. Sure we have a load of stinker choices (bezerkers, 1k sons) but once you find out what those are its a simple matter of not taking them.

I dont think any other faction needs its Forge World additions more than CSM. Forgeworld can actually make the faction playable in a decently competitive level. Its not a faction for those without cash. And if you are not prepared to spend it, then its probably not a faction one should be looking at. But dakka tends to be a bit reactionary. People speak on things as that every meta and every game is against 4 wraith knights and scat spam. This is just not the case. So when people say go with what you like, thats about the best advice you are going to get here.

Lol. Hilarious post. Chaos might be on the lower half of the middle in ITC, but i flat out challenge you to find chaos space marine lists that actually use the majority of points on CSM. The only tournament competing unit/formation they even have is the sorc cabal, which is usually just tacked onto a demon or KDK list. CSM are garbage for anything outside of fun games

@looking at ITC rankings... this is problematic because it was (is?) Solely about who the warlord is and very little to do with what you actually take.
So you get armies like Belakor, 2x cultist squads, brass scorpion. Or sorcerer cabal + KDK. Or simply belakor + cultists + heldrakes as with a Daemon army.
I think if you look at the actual makeup of the armies, you'd be hard pressed to find one that contains an actual chaos marine.

Trasvi wrote:
@looking at ITC rankings... this is problematic because it was (is?) Solely about who the warlord is and very little to do with what you actually take.
So you get armies like Belakor, 2x cultist squads, brass scorpion. Or sorcerer cabal + KDK. Or simply belakor + cultists + heldrakes as with a Daemon army.
I think if you look at the actual makeup of the armies, you'd be hard pressed to find one that contains an actual chaos marine.

ITC rankings tend to be poor judgements on an army because most of them tend to be very allied heavy to begin with, it's hard to tell the state of a codex when half your list is another codex in its entirety.

Franarok wrote:
Chaos is impressive to model, converse (any demon touch on humans as well any mutation you could imagine) and paint.

And a cool looking army



But his rules are really really bad on the table jajajjaja

That is very true. My favorite 40k model is a maulerfiend, they do look very cool

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Trasvi wrote:
@looking at ITC rankings... this is problematic because it was (is?) Solely about who the warlord is and very little to do with what you actually take.
So you get armies like Belakor, 2x cultist squads, brass scorpion. Or sorcerer cabal + KDK. Or simply belakor + cultists + heldrakes as with a Daemon army.
I think if you look at the actual makeup of the armies, you'd be hard pressed to find one that contains an actual chaos marine.

ITC rankings tend to be poor judgements on an army because most of them tend to be very allied heavy to begin with, it's hard to tell the state of a codex when half your list is another codex in its entirety.

But one can argue that allies is common in competitive circles so how the codex operates on its own does not really matter. Just throwing that out there.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

PyrhusOfEpirus wrote:

Table wrote:
I dont think chaos is the "lowest tier". I mean ITC rankings states that is false. Its actually more like CSM are sitting at the middle of road with alot of codex's behind them and just as many ahead. And this is without traitors hate. Chaos can put the hurt on when fielded correctly. The problem is the list of units/formations we have to do this is very small. Nerf or no nerf, the Heldrake is still a insane flyer for its points. The raptor talon is overlooked for the disorganized charge, but its really, REALLY good. Our psychic game is top notch and we have some hard hitting assault options (if you can get them into CC). People rave about Oblits (i find them 25 points overcosted). And now we get rules for renegade knights as allies. Sure we have a load of stinker choices (bezerkers, 1k sons) but once you find out what those are its a simple matter of not taking them.

I dont think any other faction needs its Forge World additions more than CSM. Forgeworld can actually make the faction playable in a decently competitive level. Its not a faction for those without cash. And if you are not prepared to spend it, then its probably not a faction one should be looking at. But dakka tends to be a bit reactionary. People speak on things as that every meta and every game is against 4 wraith knights and scat spam. This is just not the case. So when people say go with what you like, thats about the best advice you are going to get here.

Lol. Hilarious post. Chaos might be on the lower half of the middle in ITC, but i flat out challenge you to find chaos space marine lists that actually use the majority of points on CSM. The only tournament competing unit/formation they even have is the sorc cabal, which is usually just tacked onto a demon or KDK list. CSM are garbage for anything outside of fun games

I fail to see the reason for your attitude. But then again this is the internet. Regardless, Name one fact I was wrong about in my post. Ill be waiting.

But one can argue that allies is common in competitive circles so how the codex operates on its own does not really matter. Just throwing that out there.

I figure as much, but does it state the actual power of a codex when you only use one or two things from the codex period?
In this case it just shows that competitive 40k will do their best to take the most broken aspects of a codex and mix it with another just for pure beneficial power, in which case it really should not be seen as a measure of showing a strength of the average 40k codex. This isn't MTG where it's cheaper to splat out different colors if you need it!

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Trasvi wrote:
@looking at ITC rankings... this is problematic because it was (is?) Solely about who the warlord is and very little to do with what you actually take.
So you get armies like Belakor, 2x cultist squads, brass scorpion. Or sorcerer cabal + KDK. Or simply belakor + cultists + heldrakes as with a Daemon army.
I think if you look at the actual makeup of the armies, you'd be hard pressed to find one that contains an actual chaos marine.

ITC rankings tend to be poor judgements on an army because most of them tend to be very allied heavy to begin with, it's hard to tell the state of a codex when half your list is another codex in its entirety.

This doesnt differ from normal play at all. The same allies in ITC missions are allowed in every day missions. I'm not sure what distinction you're making.

If anything the ITC limits them more than in normal play, because of the Detachment limitation.

 Jancoran wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Trasvi wrote:
@looking at ITC rankings... this is problematic because it was (is?) Solely about who the warlord is and very little to do with what you actually take.
So you get armies like Belakor, 2x cultist squads, brass scorpion. Or sorcerer cabal + KDK. Or simply belakor + cultists + heldrakes as with a Daemon army.
I think if you look at the actual makeup of the armies, you'd be hard pressed to find one that contains an actual chaos marine.

ITC rankings tend to be poor judgements on an army because most of them tend to be very allied heavy to begin with, it's hard to tell the state of a codex when half your list is another codex in its entirety.

This doesnt differ from normal play at all. The same allies in ITC missions are allowed in every day missions. I'm not sure what distinction you're making.

If anything the ITC limits them more than in normal play, because of the Detachment limitation.

When one is trying to bring up the power level of a codex there does need to be a distinction whether one is discussion overall power level of the entire codex (mono-build) which is generally what most people tend towards talking about. If it's fine as a combined codex because all you need is Belakor, Cabal, and then you fill it up with cultists and bring in allied codex that needs to be properly measured as well.

My distinction tends towards that on average the codex is barely being used at all except for these very specific pieces, and then people call towards the rankings and say "This codex is fine! ITC says so!" despite most of the codex being very unwell.

Though I suppose my issue is that most people don't actually look at the lists being brought to ITC, it aint as if the codex is winning with a mono-build with thousand sons and defilers.. If one did I would be rather impressed however.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

But one can argue that allies is common in competitive circles so how the codex operates on its own does not really matter. Just throwing that out there.

I figure as much, but does it state the actual power of a codex when you only use one or two things from the codex period?
In this case it just shows that competitive 40k will do their best to take the most broken aspects of a codex and mix it with another just for pure beneficial power, in which case it really should not be seen as a measure of showing a strength of the average 40k codex. This isn't MTG where it's cheaper to splat out different colors if you need it!

I guess it depends on context. The relative power of a codex that is. In a ITC context where allies are normal the codex fairs decently well. And now with Traitors Hate id reckon it will perform even better. In the context of non ITC tournaments id wager its even stronger with few to no restrictions in place. In a no allies setting where its codex vs codex is where it falls flat. No one is going to argue its a subpar codex when its used on its own. But where it gets better is the introduction of forgeworld and demons. Both of which are legal and expected in the most commonly played tournament setting. The thing is, and ill say this for the 5th time. Dakka is a echo chamber in which only Eldar, Tau, Demons and Gladius matters. People here have a strange way of looking at the game and I guess that is to be expected. So my answer to the OP stays the same. CSM gets a bad rap because of the internet echo chamber and hyperbole. Its really that simple. Add in the fact that some players are going to use the excuse of "its abad faction" to make themselves feel better when their fluff 1ksons list tanks for the 100th time. Chaos may not be the top tier tourney faction, but it certainly isnt "trash". Several factions have it far worse.

That being said. I hope that one day chaos is given a flavorful codex that can stand up to the big 4 on its own two feet. But going by past precedent I dont see that happening. Its probably going to remain a middling faction until they get a new creative team. Which is to bad. Because its my favorite.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Trasvi wrote:
@looking at ITC rankings... this is problematic because it was (is?) Solely about who the warlord is and very little to do with what you actually take.
So you get armies like Belakor, 2x cultist squads, brass scorpion. Or sorcerer cabal + KDK. Or simply belakor + cultists + heldrakes as with a Daemon army.
I think if you look at the actual makeup of the armies, you'd be hard pressed to find one that contains an actual chaos marine.

ITC rankings tend to be poor judgements on an army because most of them tend to be very allied heavy to begin with, it's hard to tell the state of a codex when half your list is another codex in its entirety.

This doesnt differ from normal play at all. The same allies in ITC missions are allowed in every day missions. I'm not sure what distinction you're making.

If anything the ITC limits them more than in normal play, because of the Detachment limitation.

When one is trying to bring up the power level of a codex there does need to be a distinction whether one is discussion overall power level of the entire codex (mono-build) which is generally what most people tend towards talking about. If it's fine as a combined codex because all you need is Belakor, Cabal, and then you fill it up with cultists and bring in allied codex that needs to be properly measured as well.

My distinction tends towards that on average the codex is barely being used at all except for these very specific pieces, and then people call towards the rankings and say "This codex is fine! ITC says so!" despite most of the codex being very unwell.

Though I suppose my issue is that most people don't actually look at the lists being brought to ITC, it aint as if the codex is winning with a mono-build with thousand sons and defilers.. If one did I would be rather impressed however.

But on the same note. I dont see people winning with mono build Eldar running guardians and banshee's. There is a thousand ways to make a bad list. This is not codex specific.

Table wrote:

I guess it depends on context. The relative power of a codex that is. In a ITC context where allies are normal the codex fairs decently well. And now with Traitors Hate id reckon it will perform even better. In the context of non ITC tournaments id wager its even stronger with few to no restrictions in place. In a no allies setting where its codex vs codex is where it falls flat. No one is going to argue its a subpar codex when its used on its own. But where it gets better is the introduction of forgeworld and demons. Both of which are legal and expected in the most commonly played tournament setting. The thing is, and ill say this for the 5th time. Dakka is a echo chamber in which only Eldar, Tau, Demons and Gladius matters. People here have a strange way of looking at the game and I guess that is to be expected. So my answer to the OP stays the same. CSM gets a bad rap because of the internet echo chamber and hyperbole. Its really that simple. Add in the fact that some players are going to use the excuse of "its abad faction" to make themselves feel better when their fluff 1ksons list tanks for the 100th time. Chaos may not be the top tier tourney faction, but it certainly isnt "trash". Several factions have it far worse.

That being said. I hope that one day chaos is given a flavorful codex that can stand up to the big 4 on its own two feet. But going by past precedent I dont see that happening. Its probably going to remain a middling faction until they get a new creative team. Which is to bad. Because its my favorite.

QFT.

The real problem with the CSM Codex is the fact it has to be made better with supplements, allies and Imperial Armor. If the main codex included Fire Raptors, Sicarans, and Rapiers, you would have an army with long range firepower that can bog down enemies while your troops make their way up the board. If the main Codex included Fateweaver and Fleshounds, you would have psychic advantages and cheap beasts to strike as a first wave. You get all these through additional books, but... who really wants to spend $400 just for the rules?

CSM have no delivery method other than land raiders for assault.

The units that can deepstrike then assault are either underwhelming, or cost more than a terminator once you give them a mark.

The book is fun, but you find out quickly there are units that are just way underperforming once they start dying. (IE: You lose them and go, "Huh, that was a ton of points".)

 sfshilo wrote:
CSM have no delivery method other than land raiders for assault.

The units that can deepstrike then assault are either underwhelming, or cost more than a terminator once you give them a mark.

The book is fun, but you find out quickly there are units that are just way underperforming once they start dying. (IE: You lose them and go, "Huh, that was a ton of points".)

I would actually argue if we could get Rhinos with upgrades and Stubborn for free, we could possibly use Rhinos as a delivery method and go back to the 5th edition Rhino Rush the codex is designed for. We could afford to sacrifice a few squads to get the rest into close combat. However, I completely agree that they are not a viable delivery method as it currently stands

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Trasvi wrote:
@looking at ITC rankings... this is problematic because it was (is?) Solely about who the warlord is and very little to do with what you actually take.
So you get armies like Belakor, 2x cultist squads, brass scorpion. Or sorcerer cabal + KDK. Or simply belakor + cultists + heldrakes as with a Daemon army.
I think if you look at the actual makeup of the armies, you'd be hard pressed to find one that contains an actual chaos marine.

ITC rankings tend to be poor judgements on an army because most of them tend to be very allied heavy to begin with, it's hard to tell the state of a codex when half your list is another codex in its entirety.

This doesnt differ from normal play at all. The same allies in ITC missions are allowed in every day missions. I'm not sure what distinction you're making.

If anything the ITC limits them more than in normal play, because of the Detachment limitation.

When one is trying to bring up the power level of a codex there does need to be a distinction whether one is discussion overall power level of the entire codex (mono-build) which is generally what most people tend towards talking about. If it's fine as a combined codex because all you need is Belakor, Cabal, and then you fill it up with cultists and bring in allied codex that needs to be properly measured as well.

My distinction tends towards that on average the codex is barely being used at all except for these very specific pieces, and then people call towards the rankings and say "This codex is fine! ITC says so!" despite most of the codex being very unwell.

Though I suppose my issue is that most people don't actually look at the lists being brought to ITC, it aint as if the codex is winning with a mono-build with thousand sons and defilers.. If one did I would be rather impressed however.

Supposing that people are bringing allies is also not necessarily true.

Supposing that those allies are anything but bit players is not also necessarily true.

I went to the BAO and my ally was 34 points of my list. In the ITC, the portion of the list that is in the majority is counted as your faction forthat tournament. So while significiant portions of a list can definitely be from a second or third codex, this has nothingto do with ther ITC itself nor tha rankings.

Simply put, anyone OUTSIDE the ITC can do all of the above or not do all of the above. It's no more or less common. So what the faction really tells us is that GIVEN that MOST of the list is this faction, how do you do?

Chaos is technically capable of Assault but they're not a deathstar army. Yes, you could do stuff like the Cabalstar/Daemonkin Hounds, but Imperials get more resources/combinatorics for more deathstar options, as well as units that can split off and recombine (Iron Priests).

More than anything else, Chaos gets "just enough" CC threat distributed in their army. Their Terminators are cheaper and can be run in units of 3/tooled for trouble-shooting.

Their Bikers get the extra Pistol/CCW, Obliterators provide fire support before moving in to punch stuff, and their basic Marines can run BP/CCW swaps at minimal cost. Yes, you can argue Bolters are more relevant for shooting, but without Drop Pods/Tactical Doctrine, you won't get as much mileage playing them as a CQC alphastrike, and if you're running Meltateams, chances are you're shooting vehicles/MCs anyway and the bolters would be mostly inconsequential either way.

Spawn are handy, and Dirge Casters are always useful. Even a basic Rhino can move 12/flat out 6/project a 6" aura, and you only need to hit one model to shut off Overwatch.

One thing I've found useful so far with Traitors Hate is giving Biker Champions a Power Weapon (Lance if Slaanesh). Path to Glory/Favored Scions can turn a champion into a decent assassin (remember enemy Librarians are I4), while they remain cheapish enough that you don't mind them transforming; personally, I find that the Daemon Prince of Slaanesh is the best wingless version, due to fleet and extra run distance.

 sfshilo wrote:
CSM have no delivery method other than land raiders for assault.

The units that can deepstrike then assault are either underwhelming, or cost more than a terminator once you give them a mark.

The book is fun, but you find out quickly there are units that are just way underperforming once they start dying. (IE: You lose them and go, "Huh, that was a ton of points".)

I wouldnt call raptors underwhelming nor would I call Warp Talons the same when used in a raptor talon formation. As far as the Warp Talons go, the biggest problem they had was not being able to assault after the DS. And the talon takes that away. Sure its a disorganized charge. But in the end its probably the cheapest set of lightning claws you are going to field in any codex. Add in demon and MoZ and you have tough assault unit that can put a hurt on anything ap3 or less. Add in blind (i know, its not a huge perk) and the potential leadership hit and you have dangerous threat to almost any army (DS mishaps will always be a factor for any unit with the capability). Is it expensive? Probably. Marks in general need to halved in cost. And yes, it hurts to lose high cost msu units. You can mitigate this by not marking them and using them correctly. Dont assault targets that you have a low chance of breaking on the first round and dont fill your list with them They are an excellent addition to a raptor talon when used correctly and your luck doesnt tank on a mishap.

Look, I am still a novice when it comes to the faction. I admit this. Im a recent convert and the bulk of my 40k exp comes from playing Necrons, which is a whole different beast. But even I can see past the hyperbole of dakka when it comes to chaos, so why arnt the better players and more experienced CSM generals doing the same? Which leads into my points made in previous posts.

Disagree. they compete well. The Traitors Hate supplement did a lot for them. It's a must have.

Traitor's Hate took CSM from a complete flatline to giving them a *small* heartbeat. Tiny. IMO the thing it did was add some flavor they were desperately missing. I would agree with you that if a person wants to play CSM and they aren't running Demonkin, that Traitor's Hate probably is a must have. It's at least an attempt to fix some of what's been broken in the main book since its release.

This really underscores one of the book's main issues though. Like techsoldaten said, the main CSM codex requires a LOT of support to really function. Just look at the number of threads where someone says "Guys! I figured it out! Chaos is AMAZING! All you have to do is take 20 cultists from the main book, combine it with IA:13, this data-slate, these two supplements and that WD article and it's KILLER!" Additionally, nine times out of ten, the "lists" that appear in those threads contain almost no actual Chaos MARINES.

Unfortunately, nothing short of a total re-write is going to get the book to where it really needs to be. In it's current state, it lacks flavor, has no synergy, has no way to really capitalize on the few "strengths" it does have and actively punishes the player for using it. That said, it's probably still in better shape than Orks and 'Nids are at the moment.

"You can win with Chaos Space Marines if your army has no Chaos Space Marines."

Unfortunately, that's been an issue with 40k Marines since 5th in general. If the Gladius didn't exist and Power Armor Marines didn't get Grav Cannons, nobody would field Tacticals; they would do like the 6e codex and do Bikers or Sentinels of Terra Scouts. If it weren't for formations in general, there would be no point to Tacmarines.

Table wrote:

 sfshilo wrote:
CSM have no delivery method other than land raiders for assault.

The units that can deepstrike then assault are either underwhelming, or cost more than a terminator once you give them a mark.

The book is fun, but you find out quickly there are units that are just way underperforming once they start dying. (IE: You lose them and go, "Huh, that was a ton of points".)

I wouldnt call raptors underwhelming nor would I call Warp Talons the same when used in a raptor talon formation. As far as the Warp Talons go, the biggest problem they had was not being able to assault after the DS. And the talon takes that away. Sure its a disorganized charge. But in the end its probably the cheapest set of lightning claws you are going to field in any codex. Add in demon and MoZ and you have tough assault unit that can put a hurt on anything ap3 or less. Add in blind (i know, its not a huge perk) and the potential leadership hit and you have dangerous threat to almost any army (DS mishaps will always be a factor for any unit with the capability). Is it expensive? Probably. Marks in general need to halved in cost. And yes, it hurts to lose high cost msu units. You can mitigate this by not marking them and using them correctly. Dont assault targets that you have a low chance of breaking on the first round and dont fill your list with them They are an excellent addition to a raptor talon when used correctly and your luck doesnt tank on a mishap.

Look, I am still a novice when it comes to the faction. I admit this. Im a recent convert and the bulk of my 40k exp comes from playing Necrons, which is a whole different beast. But even I can see past the hyperbole of dakka when it comes to chaos, so why arnt the better players and more experienced CSM generals doing the same? Which leads into my points made in previous posts.

I love Raptors. Night Lords for the win.

Table wrote:
Look, I am still a novice when it comes to the faction. I admit this. Im a recent convert and the bulk of my 40k exp comes from playing Necrons, which is a whole different beast. But even I can see past the hyperbole of dakka when it comes to chaos, so why arnt the better players and more experienced CSM generals doing the same? Which leads into my points made in previous posts.

Simple: Too many source books and too weak a codex. On it's own, the codex is just weak. Why take CSM when Eldar and SM do everything it does, but better/cheaper? Second, some tourneys crack down on the amount of CADs/Formations/Sourcebooks a list can use. This hurts CSM when, as shown before, they excel with allies, Imperial Armour, etc.

Seriously, why play CSM when you can play mono-Daemons, SM, or Eldar and do way better?

Table wrote:


I wouldnt call raptors underwhelming nor would I call Warp Talons the same when used in a raptor talon formation. As far as the Warp Talons go, the biggest problem they had was not being able to assault after the DS. And the talon takes that away.

Look, I am still a novice when it comes to the faction. I admit this. Im a recent convert and the bulk of my 40k exp comes from playing Necrons, which is a whole different beast. But even I can see past the hyperbole of dakka when it comes to chaos, so why arnt the better players and more experienced CSM generals doing the same? Which leads into my points made in previous posts.

Hyperbole is what Dakkadakka does. Lol.

But seriously... here is what the Raptor Talon and Traitors Hate does for you:

1. The most feared version of Eldar is a jetbike spam list. The Talon allows you to shut three of the things down in the critical second round. Some reserve manipulation isn't expensive and is worth being able to say that you nuked their feared jetbikes and when you are done with them (preferably in their round because of the Disorganized charge) you can start in on the next unit. This is a very significant thing to be able to say.

2. White Scar Battle Companies with Grav Spam. Here again, you are able to focus down three Rhinos and charge their innards. Here again the combination of Dirge Caster and Raptors makes cleaning up one flank a pretty good bet and allows you to enforce your will on them as far as target priorities go. one of the problems Battle Companies like this have is range and los once the hullas start to mount up and with Grav they tend not to explode hulls as often because they so frequently kill them through the technicality of Immobilizing. Its like watching a game of Pacman if you can make that first rhino busting session a success.

3. Units of Three predators. What a win for Chaos players. So often the problem for them has been that they cannot afford to take tanks because they get too few of them and so things like Obliterators make more sense. But AV 13 armor is pretty good and when its kept to the rear its better. Being able to fire 9 lascannon shots, some twin linked will rapidly do damage to anything you care to do damage to and it encourages the enemy to fire at them rather than the buzzing bees around their head. Range will limit their ability to hurt you. So this means you can even null deploy a tank squadron, here again with reserve manipulation, and give them a good resting zone to affect the battle once their buzzing bees are present to keep the heat off.

4. The Tau Empire and its Riptide Wings will be none too happy to see the Raptors dropping in. While the Raptors cannot do an extremely good job of harming the Riptides on their own (though as they are not fearless, Riptides will likely lose eventually) the Chaos Lord that comes with them certainly can end the Riptides hopes of escape and survival. The Riptide wing has been included in a LOT of armies and they FREQUENTLY get their 3+ invul save up, but one failure is all it takes to send them careening off the table if you arm your Chaos Lord correctly and now with the great upgrades you will constantly be getting from the Boons table in a Black Legion force, this could be twice as true.

5. Heldrakes were already good. The new Formation improves them and lets be honest...who WASN'T taking two of them when they were taking them at all except maybe me? Now you can DARE people to go to ground against your other units and also drive people off the table with just a few wounds when they are falling back. How this works is you want to arm your force so that the enemy must take an LD check in every phase possible. Dirge Casting Tank shocks and incoming Vector Strikes can force it in Movement phase, Terrify and the like in the psyker phase, shooting in the shooting phase and so on. Once a unit is falling back it auto fails morale tests when forced to take one again, which can happen in every phase. Obviously fearless stuff wont care AS much but then, a LOT of 40K simply isnt fearless. the recognizably most potent forces in the ITC aren't as a rule.

6. Making Termiantors and other units Objective Secured in the Core Formation is sweet. As many armies that rely on this mechanic heavily for victory, like Militarum Tempestus for example, or Battle Companies can tell you, giving the entire formation that benefit is kinda a big deal. the detachable lord can even use it to good effect. I think this did a ton to make Chaos more effective. Terminators are annoying in 3's but have not been able to take objecrtives from troops before so their value was seen as somewhat lesser. Now they can drop right in and run to an objective. No longer can they be ignored in favor of "better" targets because unlike before they now at minimum contest it if not take it outright and many units wil not be nearly as excited about charging them as they would be other units Chaos had to use before for the same duty. Its certainly not game breaking but ignoring its positive impact seems equally silly.

I have always chosen to look for the positive way forward instead of wallowing in the misery some people enjoy wallowing in. they must enjoy it because some do it an awful lot! Are Chaos Mariens the most powerful faction? Good lord, no. But they don't need to be. They just need a capable general who knows what he's doing. Be that General!

You're literally becoming "L2P" in poster form.

 Jancoran wrote:

Table wrote:


I wouldnt call raptors underwhelming nor would I call Warp Talons the same when used in a raptor talon formation. As far as the Warp Talons go, the biggest problem they had was not being able to assault after the DS. And the talon takes that away.

Look, I am still a novice when it comes to the faction. I admit this. Im a recent convert and the bulk of my 40k exp comes from playing Necrons, which is a whole different beast. But even I can see past the hyperbole of dakka when it comes to chaos, so why arnt the better players and more experienced CSM generals doing the same? Which leads into my points made in previous posts.

Hyperbole is what Dakkadakka does. Lol.

But seriously... here is what the Raptor Talon and Traitors Hate does for you:

1. The most feared version of Eldar is a jetbike spam list. The Talon allows you to shut three of the things down in the critical second round. Some reserve manipulation isn't expensive and is worth being able to say that you nuked their feared jetbikes and when you are done with them (preferably in their round because of the Disorganized charge) you can start in on the next unit. This is a very significant thing to be able to say.

2. White Scar Battle Companies with Grav Spam. Here again, you are able to focus down three Rhinos and charge their innards. Here again the combination of Dirge Caster and Raptors makes cleaning up one flank a pretty good bet and allows you to enforce your will on them as far as target priorities go. one of the problems Battle Companies like this have is range and los once the hullas start to mount up and with Grav they tend not to explode hulls as often because they so frequently kill them through the technicality of Immobilizing. Its like watching a game of Pacman if you can make that first rhino busting session a success.

3. Units of Three predators. What a win for Chaos players. So often the problem for them has been that they cannot afford to take tanks because they get too few of them and so things like Obliterators make more sense. But AV 13 armor is pretty good and when its kept to the rear its better. Being able to fire 9 lascannon shots, some twin linked will rapidly do damage to anything you care to do damage to and it encourages the enemy to fire at them rather than the buzzing bees around their head. Range will limit their ability to hurt you. So this means you can even null deploy a tank squadron, here again with reserve manipulation, and give them a good resting zone to affect the battle once their buzzing bees are present to keep the heat off.

4. The Tau Empire and its Riptide Wings will be none too happy to see the Raptors dropping in. While the Raptors cannot do an extremely good job of harming the Riptides on their own (though as they are not fearless, Riptides will likely lose eventually) the Chaos Lord that comes with them certainly can end the Riptides hopes of escape and survival. The Riptide wing has been included in a LOT of armies and they FREQUENTLY get their 3+ invul save up, but one failure is all it takes to send them careening off the table if you arm your Chaos Lord correctly and now with the great upgrades you will constantly be getting from the Boons table in a Black Legion force, this could be twice as true.

5. Heldrakes were already good. The new Formation improves them and lets be honest...who WASN'T taking two of them when they were taking them at all except maybe me? Now you can DARE people to go to ground against your other units and also drive people off the table with just a few wounds when they are falling back. How this works is you want to arm your force so that the enemy must take an LD check in every phase possible. Dirge Casting Tank shocks and incoming Vector Strikes can force it in Movement phase, Terrify and the like in the psyker phase, shooting in the shooting phase and so on. Once a unit is falling back it auto fails morale tests when forced to take one again, which can happen in every phase. Obviously fearless stuff wont care AS much but then, a LOT of 40K simply isnt fearless. the recognizably most potent forces in the ITC aren't as a rule.

6. Making Termiantors and other units Objective Secured in the Core Formation is sweet. As many armies that rely on this mechanic heavily for victory, like Militarum Tempestus for example, or Battle Companies can tell you, giving the entire formation that benefit is kinda a big deal. the detachable lord can even use it to good effect. I think this did a ton to make Chaos more effective. Terminators are annoying in 3's but have not been able to take objecrtives from troops before so their value was seen as somewhat lesser. Now they can drop right in and run to an objective. No longer can they be ignored in favor of "better" targets because unlike before they now at minimum contest it if not take it outright and many units wil not be nearly as excited about charging them as they would be other units Chaos had to use before for the same duty. Its certainly not game breaking but ignoring its positive impact seems equally silly.

I have always chosen to look for the positive way forward instead of wallowing in the misery some people enjoy wallowing in. they must enjoy it because some do it an awful lot! Are Chaos Mariens the most powerful faction? Good lord, no. But they don't need to be. They just need a capable general who knows what he's doing. Be that General!

Good god. What a post. Some really good info for newer chaos players such as myself. Many thanks. But if I could trouble you to know your thoughts on Warp Talons in the Talon? I know the big factor of not including them is simply you lose a raptor unit. But for those of us who love the models im not seeing a big decrease in the potency of the formation by including a unit. But id like to know your thoughts on how you would go about outfitting and using the unit in a talon. I have my general thoughts but Id love some info from a better player. And once, more thanks for the post above.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You're literally becoming "L2P" in poster form.

I literally wish you would stop pretending like getting better at the game isnt important too. Lol.

That's what i wish. I know I won't get it. Because if you attack anyone who advocates getting better, then you get away with claiming lists are all that matter. Good luck with that. I look forward to following your standings with great interest in 2017.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Table wrote:

Good god. What a post. Some really good info for newer chaos players such as myself. Many thanks. But if I could trouble you to know your thoughts on Warp Talons in the Talon? I know the big factor of not including them is simply you lose a raptor unit. But for those of us who love the models im not seeing a big decrease in the potency of the formation by including a unit. But id like to know your thoughts on how you would go about outfitting and using the unit in a talon. I have my general thoughts but Id love some info from a better player. And once, more thanks for the post above.

I'll share an article i wrote a long while ago about them but things HAVE changed since then so read it in that light: http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2014/01/warp-talons.html

As for the current state of affairs, the Warp Talons article goes over a lot of what I would say. but the issue you have with them is the same as it ever was: cost and no grenades. The grenade thing is explained by the fact that they are Daemons in the end. So okay whatever. But this really does impact things. Cover is prolific most of the time and going second AND disorganized charge on top of it really hurts the feelings. You can also bet that the enemy will direct its attacks against the Talons first and though the 5+ invulnerable save is great against harder hitters, a lot of your targets wont kill you with any more difficulty than anything else they are used to fighting.

So the easy answer is that if you DO take them, they are less useful when attacking the same target (as you would want to do perhaps when trying to use the Formation ability) because they will be the first to take hits a lot of the time and they are more expensive.

The blinding effect is really good though and with the Dimensional Key which is tough to pull off you could make real use of Warp Talons. I view them kind of as a better unit to have jumping forward behind the Rhino wall instead of deep Striking which further takes away from what they do. After all the Rhino wall is important for Dirge Casting and giving the enemy the unenviable choice between trying to get around to the Warp Talons ooooor...killing the rhinos... I mean you can see how this creates some defense for your rhinos. Its not on paper, but target priority is a very real way for a general to protect the squishier things in a list. Once the enemy kills the first rhino for first blood as they inevitably probably will, their interest in killing rhinos lessens and their wish to kill Warp Talons increases. the question though is, are you going to take Warp Talons if that's your strategy with them? You lose some of what makes them cool on the drop that way.

Nonetheless I would perhaps deploy it normally and walk it up, forming a curtain with the rhinos to protect them. Use its eventual arrival to conicide with that of the Raptors to get the morale penalty later on, against the most important target.

Nurgle is absolutely the Mark to use for Raptors and for Warp Talons because they are going STRAIGHT into the teeth of the enemy and they are ever so good and holding the enemy in place if you make them tough. Makes sure you can get a chaos lord up there to join them. a biker lord is probably the answer there. zoom it up, wait for the drop and then join them. As both units can charge at that point, you can get Fearless. The Chaos lord is super important because he makes them fearless. Time and again this has been important. Don't underestimate it. Warp Talons i think come fearless as Daemons so they are good to go without the Chaos Lord. An Objective Secured Biker lord is pretty snazzy though... You can attack and still be contesting/taking objectives that way if he's from the Chaos Warband...

I don't know if that is what you're interested in knowing but that's my general answer.

 Jancoran wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
You're literally becoming "L2P" in poster form.

I literally wish you would stop pretending like getting better at the game isnt important too. Lol.

That's what i wish. I know I won't get it. Because if you attack anyone who advocates getting better, then you get away with claiming lists are all that matter. Good luck with that. I look forward to following your standings with great interest in 2017.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Table wrote:

Good god. What a post. Some really good info for newer chaos players such as myself. Many thanks. But if I could trouble you to know your thoughts on Warp Talons in the Talon? I know the big factor of not including them is simply you lose a raptor unit. But for those of us who love the models im not seeing a big decrease in the potency of the formation by including a unit. But id like to know your thoughts on how you would go about outfitting and using the unit in a talon. I have my general thoughts but Id love some info from a better player. And once, more thanks for the post above.

I'll share an article i wrote a long while ago about them but things HAVE changed since then so read it in that light: http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2014/01/warp-talons.html

As for the current state of affairs, the Warp Talons article goes over a lot of what I would say. but the issue you have with them is the same as it ever was: cost and no grenades. The grenade thing is explained by the fact that they are Daemons in the end. So okay whatever. But this really does impact things. Cover is prolific most of the time and going second AND disorganized charge on top of it really hurts the feelings. You can also bet that the enemy will direct its attacks against the Talons first and though the 5+ invulnerable save is great against harder hitters, a lot of your targets wont kill you with any more difficulty than anything else they are used to fighting.

So the easy answer is that if you DO take them, they are less useful when attacking the same target (as you would want to do perhaps when trying to use the Formation ability) because they will be the first to take hits a lot of the time and they are more expensive.

The blinding effect is really good though and with the Dimensional Key which is tough to pull off you could make real use of Warp Talons. I view them kind of as a better unit to have jumping forward behind the Rhino wall instead of deep Striking which further takes away from what they do. After all the Rhino wall is important for Dirge Casting and giving the enemy the unenviable choice between trying to get around to the Warp Talons ooooor...killing the rhinos... I mean you can see how this creates some defense for your rhinos. Its not on paper, but target priority is a very real way for a general to protect the squishier things in a list. Once the enemy kills the first rhino for first blood as they inevitably probably will, their interest in killing rhinos lessens and their wish to kill Warp Talons increases. the question though is, are you going to take Warp Talons if that's your strategy with them? You lose some of what makes them cool on the drop that way.

Nonetheless I would perhaps deploy it normally and walk it up, forming a curtain with the rhinos to protect them. Use its eventual arrival to conicide with that of the Raptors to get the morale penalty later on, against the most important target.

Nurgle is absolutely the Mark to use for Raptors and for Warp Talons because they are going STRAIGHT into the teeth of the enemy and they are ever so good and holding the enemy in place if you make them tough. Makes sure you can get a chaos lord up there to join them. a biker lord is probably the answer there. zoom it up, wait for the drop and then join them. As both units can charge at that point, you can get Fearless. The Chaos lord is super important because he makes them fearless. Time and again this has been important. Don't underestimate it. Warp Talons i think come fearless as Daemons so they are good to go without the Chaos Lord. An Objective Secured Biker lord is pretty snazzy though... You can attack and still be contesting/taking objectives that way if he's from the Chaos Warband...

I don't know if that is what you're interested in knowing but that's my general answer.

There's a difference between helping someone getting better at the game and not realizing there's gakky codex writing and merely writing off as someone not improving. You fall into the latter because we are talking about the CSM codex and ALL its supplements not coming to light in tournament gaming and you completely ignoring it.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:



There's a difference between helping someone getting better at the game and not realizing there's gakky codex writing and merely writing off as someone not improving. You fall into the latter because we are talking about the CSM codex and ALL its supplements not coming to light in tournament gaming and you completely ignoring it.

The irony being that you quoted an entire wall of text wherein I offered a lot of thoughts that I think are useful for him to know. Lol.

Also, we weren't actually talking about "realizing" there's a "gakky" codex. You were. We were discussing WHY it has that perception. And perception, last time I checked...wasn't reality.

I also read somewhere in my post... that its not the most powerful codex. I'm not feeding him a false narrative. I'm telling him how to make it work. I make it work just fine. The reason I know I can help is because I'm actually doing it and by your own admissions, you're actually not.

You make this constant demand that we all admit flat out despair BEFORE moving on with useful discussion. Its just so pointless. I refuse this mode of thought you want to force on me and others, utterly.

Winning is an attitude that allows you not to lose your focus when bad things happen or die go sideways. Winning is an attitude that allows you to keep searching for the way out, long after others in the same maze have crawled in a corner and given up hope. Winning is an attitude that allows you to be creative and think around the problem instead of seeing only the problem itself. That is who I am. I am really sorry that you feel this need to try and corner people into being negative before they can say anything else you will accept. I'm really sorry for that. But just stop already. I don't win every game, but I win more than frequently enough to tell you that it's at least worth considering what I am saying. You rarely do. Yet you say it's a terrible codex and the only reason I can think of that anyone would say it so vociferously is if they were losing a lot. If that is the case, then perhaps let soemone who ISN'T losing as often speak up. sheesh.