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When I started playing wolves I was kind of disappointed that the "Great" Wolf wasn't so great. He is practically a wolf lord with a powerfist and frost sword with 4 wounds in terminator armour. And he costs 250 points.

So, this is my recipe to bring him to glory!

Logan Grimnar, The Great Wolf, High King of Fenris, Chapter Master of The Space Wolves:

250 points

WS: 6 BS: 5 S:4 T:4 W:4 I:5 A:5 LD:10

Wargear: The Axe Morkai, Storm Bolter, Terminator Armour, Belt of Russ.

Special Rules: For The King!, Independent Character, Eternal Warrior, The Kingsguard, Cunning of The Wolf, Weapons Master.

For The King!: Logan Grimnar's legendary tales and sagas are many, and even the mere sight of such a warrior pushes his brothers to even higher feats of combat to prove themselves in the eyes of their lord. Every unit with the Space Wolf faction gains the Zealot special rule within 6" of Logan Grimnar.

The Kingsguard: When Logan Grimnar rides to war, he does so with his most trusted and skilled warriors at his side. In a detachment that has Logan Grimnar, one unit of terminators may gain +1 BS and +1 WS. This unit must contain Arjac Rockfist, and must begin the game attached to Logan Grimnar. He may not leave this unit. Any rolls to Look Out Sir! are automatically passed.

Cunning of The Wolf: Logan Grimnar is a fearsome warrior, as well as a cunning strategist. Logan Grimnar may choose his Warlord Trait from the Space Wolves codex, or the Strategic Traits table found in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules.

Weapons Master: To see the Wolf King on the battlefield is to see death incarnate, a true mastery of the blade. Logan Grimnar may divide his attacks between one handed and two handed when using The Axe Morkai.

The Axe Morkai: The daemon weapon of a once mighty Khornate Berzerker became Logan's when he bested the champion in single combat, in the process losing his frostblade, but gaining this new mighty weapon. Even after it was cleansed and reforged in the belly of the Fang, some say the daemon hidden in the axe still haunts it, thirsting for blood and guiding its wielder's to glory. At the beginning of every combat, Logan gets an extra D3 attacks added to his profile. In addition, the blade is Mastercrafted and can be wielded in one hand, or two.

One Handed: STR +2 AP: 3, Rending

Two Handed: STR x2 AP: 2, Unweildy

Minor issue-the way it's worded, you gain d3 attacks PERMANENTLY every combat. I doubt that's intended.

And honestly... I don't see any major changes. I was expecting a bit more of an overhaul.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Minor issue-the way it's worded, you gain d3 attacks PERMANENTLY every combat. I doubt that's intended.

And honestly... I don't see any major changes. I was expecting a bit more of an overhaul.

Right, I meant like the daemon weapon rule. And I wanted to buff him a little bit but not a major overhaul, I thought this was a pretty good medium. Any suggestions to change him?

*Cracks knuckles*

Let's see what I would do...

Logan Grimnar
High King Of Fenris

WS-7
He's THE Space Wolf. I think he deserves to be a bit better than less CC oriented Chapter Masters, like Calgar.

BS-5
Nothing special here.

S-4
Again, nothing special.

T-4
Nope. Nothing to see here.

W-4
About what you'd expect.

I-5
Again, he's the King of a CC Chapter. He deserves slightly better CC stats than a regular Chapter Master, at the cost of any halfway decent shooting.
Edit: He shouldn't be as fast as Dante, so I5 he is again.

A-5
Still a bit better than a regular Chapter Master.

Ld-10
Dur.

Sv-2+
Again, dur.

Wargear
Terminator Armour
Storm Bolter
Belt Of Russ

Special Rules
And They Shall Know No Fear
Acute Senses
Counter Attack
Eternal Warrior
Fear
Fearless
Furious Charge
Independent Character
Rage
Genius On The Battlefield-If Logan Grimnar is your Warlord, you may roll once on the Space Wolf table and once on the Strategic table (with rerolls, if applicable) and keep both Warlord traits.
Inspiring Presence-If Logan Grimnar is on the battlefield, all friendly Space Wolves have the Stubborn special rule. Anyone within 6" of Logan Grimnar instead have Fearless. If Logan Grimnar is slain, all allied Space Wolves instead gain Hatred.

Relic Of The Fang-The Axe Morkai
One-Handed: Range-, S+2, AP3, Melee, Mastercrafted, Rending, Master of Weaponry, The Inner Daemon
Two-Handed: Range-, SX2, AP2, Melee, Mastercrafted, Master of Weaponry, The Inner Daemon, Two-Handed, Unwieldy
Master of Weaponry-The bearer of The Axe Morkai may choose to make attacks with both profiles in one phase, declaring how attacks are allocated before the combat begins.
The Inner Daemon-The bearer of The Axe Morkai makes an additional d3 attacks in each combat phase, rolled just before declaring how attacks are allocated with Master of Weaponry.
________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

So, looking at it, I actually didn't do that much differently. Hrm. Not sure what exactly to do here.

Hope I helped!

I'm sorry but there's absolutely no reason for him to have I6 or Rage AND Furious Charge or a weapon that gives part of the benefits of Daemon weapon with NONE of the drawbacks. Crowe doesn't even get anything using an actual demon sword.

You've created a special snowflake alright.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm sorry but there's absolutely no reason for him to have I6 or Rage AND Furious Charge or a weapon that gives part of the benefits of Daemon weapon with NONE of the drawbacks. Crowe doesn't even get anything using an actual demon sword.

You've created a special snowflake alright.

I'm a bit confused as to what's so bad about it. I6 puts him as faster than than the average Eldar-but only equal in speed to some Exarchs.

Furious Charge will matter only against T5+ Models (One-Handed) or T7+ (Two-Handed), which are admittedly pretty common in this day and age, but it's hardly going to break the game.

Rage gives him one extra attack, on the turn he charges. Admittedly, it's a powerful attack, but again, hardly game-breaking. (Khorne Berserkers get both, and no one complains about them being OP. Quite the opposite, in fact.)

The Daemon-Lite weapon is probably the biggest benefit, so maybe limit that to once per game? But then I'd want to make it more powerful than just a d3.

Also, in comparison, let's take a Wraithknight... Yeah no, those things are OP. Let's compare a GUO-stock.

Logan attacks first, if one-handed, hitting on 3s and wounding on 4s. He hits 5 times (with 7 attacks on average-no bonus for charging a Nurgle Daemon) times, wounds 2.5, and the Daemon saves .83. Total damage? About 1/4th the GUO's wounds.

Then the GUO swings back, with 5 attacks, hitting with 2.5, wounding with ~2.1, and Logan saves one on average. Total damage? About 1/4th Logan's wounds.

And the GUO is 190 Base. Logan is 250.

Ah, but what if he uses the two-handed profile? Then he wounds on 2s, significantly upping his damage. But he also swings second, and has a chance of being murdered before swinging.

Running the numbers, he does 5 hits, 4 wounds, and 1.3 get saved, doing 2.7. Nearly half a GUO's health.

This is, of course, assuming no Psychic powers are in play. Enfeeble changes the situation drastically, as does Iron Arm, or Warp Speed. (Hemorrhage or Life Leech... Not so much.) Endurance is the easiest to calculate, since it effectively halves the number of wounds the GUO takes. In fact, a GUO with Endurance consistently up will kill Logan.

So I'm afraid I don't see the issues, really.

I can see an argument for there being no reason for a space marine to be as fast as eldar exachs. If logan is going to be a melee bad ass it should be from damage and durability. Not speed.

RIP Abaddon. Who cares if you're backed by all 4 Gods when you can be backed by Wolfy Wolves from the Wolf Planet of Wolves.

Seriously the number of special rules and all that are excessive, especially if you plan to keep him at 250pts.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm sorry but there's absolutely no reason for him to have I6 or Rage AND Furious Charge or a weapon that gives part of the benefits of Daemon weapon with NONE of the drawbacks. Crowe doesn't even get anything using an actual demon sword.

You've created a special snowflake alright.

I'm a bit confused as to what's so bad about it. I6 puts him as faster than than the average Eldar-but only equal in speed to some Exarchs.

Furious Charge will matter only against T5+ Models (One-Handed) or T7+ (Two-Handed), which are admittedly pretty common in this day and age, but it's hardly going to break the game.

Rage gives him one extra attack, on the turn he charges. Admittedly, it's a powerful attack, but again, hardly game-breaking. (Khorne Berserkers get both, and no one complains about them being OP. Quite the opposite, in fact.)

The Daemon-Lite weapon is probably the biggest benefit, so maybe limit that to once per game? But then I'd want to make it more powerful than just a d3.

Also, in comparison, let's take a Wraithknight... Yeah no, those things are OP. Let's compare a GUO-stock.

Logan attacks first, if one-handed, hitting on 3s and wounding on 4s. He hits 5 times (with 7 attacks on average-no bonus for charging a Nurgle Daemon) times, wounds 2.5, and the Daemon saves .83. Total damage? About 1/4th the GUO's wounds.

Then the GUO swings back, with 5 attacks, hitting with 2.5, wounding with ~2.1, and Logan saves one on average. Total damage? About 1/4th Logan's wounds.

And the GUO is 190 Base. Logan is 250.

Ah, but what if he uses the two-handed profile? Then he wounds on 2s, significantly upping his damage. But he also swings second, and has a chance of being murdered before swinging.

Running the numbers, he does 5 hits, 4 wounds, and 1.3 get saved, doing 2.7. Nearly half a GUO's health.

This is, of course, assuming no Psychic powers are in play. Enfeeble changes the situation drastically, as does Iron Arm, or Warp Speed. (Hemorrhage or Life Leech... Not so much.) Endurance is the easiest to calculate, since it effectively halves the number of wounds the GUO takes. In fact, a GUO with Endurance consistently up will kill Logan.

So I'm afraid I don't see the issues, really.

I can't believe I even have to have this conversation.

1. He's in no way agile or graceful like Dante, who is I6 to begin with. What you're implying is that Logan is as fast as Dante, the Chapter Master of a Chapter that's partially about speed. No.
2. I'm going to tackle both Rage and Furious Charge here. You made mention of Berserker Marines, and people say they suck because they're 19 point MEQ with limited transport options and do essentially nothing special, to the point that regular MoK Marines give you significantly more bang for your buck. The fact that you used this as a justification is lousy on your end. Nobody complains about a lousy unit, so let us add more rules on top of an already special snowflake? Bogus. You get one or the other. You don't get both because Logan.
3. He gets none of the drawbacks of a Daemon Weapon and Crowe, an actual Psyker, gets literally no benefits for his daemon stick. Why is Logan special?
4. You're taking the shtick that the Unclean One is supposed to be durable, and because Logan doesn't one round it, your proposed rules are okay. That's not how it works. They aren't even that terrific in the first place. You're basically having him one up Azrael too, the supposed grand strategist in terms of Space Marines, in both combat and benefits. That's asinine.

I'm with SlayerFan here on the statline. Consider for a moment other Chapter Masters and their relationship to the generic Chapter Master statline:

Dante: Generic statline plus I6
Calgar: Generic statline
Helbrecht: Generic statline
Kantor: Generic statline
Azrael: Generic statline
Grimnar (current printing): Generic statline plus A5
Carab Culln: Generic statline
Lugft Huron (pre-defection): Generic statline
Asterion Moloc: Generic statline dropped to A3
Kaldor Draigo (Lord High Chief of the Special Snowflakes): Generic statline

I get trying to make your character fancy, but when every single Chapter Master in the game has the same statline (except for three who've got +/-1 to one stat) adding in more doesn't make a lot of sense.

As for the pile of special rules I understand your point of view on the berserker-Marine concept, but I'd think that's why Grimnar has five Attacks on profile in the first place. He's got more Attacks than any Imperial character has who wasn't a Primarch, why does he need Rage and +d3 attacks all the time on top of that? Or, more concisely, if your character needs more attacks than Angron (6 for Angron, compared to 6+d3 for your Grimnar) you should go back and rethink what a 'good' or 'bad' number of attacks is.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm sorry but there's absolutely no reason for him to have I6 or Rage AND Furious Charge or a weapon that gives part of the benefits of Daemon weapon with NONE of the drawbacks. Crowe doesn't even get anything using an actual demon sword.

You've created a special snowflake alright.

I gave him d3 extra attacks, a couple army buffs and strategic traits. For the cost of a land raider, I think he's pretty fair. Just think of Calgar or Draigo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I'm with SlayerFan here on the statline. Consider for a moment other Chapter Masters and their relationship to the generic Chapter Master statline:

Dante: Generic statline plus I6
Calgar: Generic statline
Helbrecht: Generic statline
Kantor: Generic statline
Azrael: Generic statline
Grimnar (current printing): Generic statline plus A5
Carab Culln: Generic statline
Lugft Huron (pre-defection): Generic statline
Asterion Moloc: Generic statline dropped to A3
Kaldor Draigo (Lord High Chief of the Special Snowflakes): Generic statline

I get trying to make your character fancy, but when every single Chapter Master in the game has the same statline (except for three who've got +/-1 to one stat) adding in more doesn't make a lot of sense.

As for the pile of special rules I understand your point of view on the berserker-Marine concept, but I'd think that's why Grimnar has five Attacks on profile in the first place. He's got more Attacks than any Imperial character has who wasn't a Primarch, why does he need Rage and +d3 attacks all the time on top of that? Or, more concisely, if your character needs more attacks than Angron (6 for Angron, compared to 6+d3 for your Grimnar) you should go back and rethink what a 'good' or 'bad' number of attacks is.

Grimnar has 5 attacks because the designers probably wanted to make up for the fact he doesnt' have paired weapons. Most chapter masters do, and so are pretty on par with him for attacks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
RIP Abaddon. Who cares if you're backed by all 4 Gods when you can be backed by Wolfy Wolves from the Wolf Planet of Wolves.

Seriously the number of special rules and all that are excessive, especially if you plan to keep him at 250pts.

Abaddom could still probably kill him. He's higher initiative with a better everything. Is a special unit of termies and zealot really worth like 40 points?

Good point on Dante. I'll drop the Initiative in my version.

And I actually derped on my math-I factored in Furious Charge, but didn't account for the fact that it goes away turn two.

So, in one-on-one, mano-a-mano combat, one-handed... Logan loses to a GUO. A stock one. With no psychic buffs.

Two-handed, he wins, but takes a very heavy toll on himself.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I'm with SlayerFan here on the statline. Consider for a moment other Chapter Masters and their relationship to the generic Chapter Master statline:

Dante: Generic statline plus I6
Calgar: Generic statline
Helbrecht: Generic statline
Kantor: Generic statline
Azrael: Generic statline
Grimnar (current printing): Generic statline plus A5
Carab Culln: Generic statline
Lugft Huron (pre-defection): Generic statline
Asterion Moloc: Generic statline dropped to A3
Kaldor Draigo (Lord High Chief of the Special Snowflakes): Generic statline

I get trying to make your character fancy, but when every single Chapter Master in the game has the same statline (except for three who've got +/-1 to one stat) adding in more doesn't make a lot of sense.

As for the pile of special rules I understand your point of view on the berserker-Marine concept, but I'd think that's why Grimnar has five Attacks on profile in the first place. He's got more Attacks than any Imperial character has who wasn't a Primarch, why does he need Rage and +d3 attacks all the time on top of that? Or, more concisely, if your character needs more attacks than Angron (6 for Angron, compared to 6+d3 for your Grimnar) you should go back and rethink what a 'good' or 'bad' number of attacks is.

Just for correction, Asterion was put back to 4 attacks.

 ShieldBrother wrote:
...Grimnar has 5 attacks because the designers probably wanted to make up for the fact he doesnt' have paired weapons. Most chapter masters do, and so are pretty on par with him for attacks...

Many more Chapter Masters don't have two hand weapons than do. Dante, Calgar, and Azrael do, but Kantor, Helbrecht, Seth, Culln, Huron, and Draigo don't, and none of them have a bonus Attack because of it.

Helbrecht sort of does with the Legacy of Dorn rule in his Artifact. It's only on the Charge, though.

 Charistoph wrote:
Helbrecht sort of does with the Legacy of Dorn rule in his Artifact. It's only on the Charge, though.

Given that the Space Wolf fans are proposing giving Grimnar an extra Attack on the charge, and an extra attack base, and d3 more just because I suspect it's still entirely unwarranted.

As a point of curiosity/amusement (and because I keep using this comparison) I checked JNA's rules in a fight with Angron, just out of curiosity. Angron strikes first either way so Grimnar is using the axe two-handed for a better to-wound roll; with no charges Angron is left standing with 1 to 2 wounds left after three rounds of combat.

So your Grimnar may lose to a naked Great Unclean One 60pts cheaper than he is, but he'd also stand toe-to-toe with a Primarch 150pts more expensive than he is and acquit himself well besides.

(Also this is a point that's been bothering me: why does "A King of the Common Man" make Grimnar better at using the common man as a human shield? It seems counterintuitive.)

A King Of The Common Man let's Logan Look Out Sir!

That's him using himself as a shield for other people, not him using others as a shield.

And I don't have Angron's stats, so I can't run the math there. (Isn't Angron only AP3, though?)

 ShieldBrother wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
RIP Abaddon. Who cares if you're backed by all 4 Gods when you can be backed by Wolfy Wolves from the Wolf Planet of Wolves.

Seriously the number of special rules and all that are excessive, especially if you plan to keep him at 250pts.

Abaddom could still probably kill him. He's higher initiative with a better everything. Is a special unit of termies and zealot really worth like 40 points?

Should have made it clearer, I was replying in JNA's Grimnar rules proposal.

 JNAProductions wrote:
A King Of The Common Man let's Logan Look Out Sir!

That's him using himself as a shield for other people, not him using others as a shield.

And I don't have Angron's stats, so I can't run the math there. (Isn't Angron only AP3, though?)

Literally all the Primarchs are using AP2 weapons. Unless ranged of course, in which it will vary.

Okay, I looked up Angron on 1d4chan, so I don't know if I'm getting all his rules right.

Assuming Logan gets the charge, Angron strikes first with 6 WS9 S8 attacks, hitting on 3s, rerolling due to Hatred, for 5.3 hits on average, wounding on 2s, for 4.4 wounds, Logan saving on 4s for 2.2 wounds.

Logan then strikes, with 7-9 (average 8) S9 attacks, hitting on 4s, no rerolls, for 4 hits, 3.3 wounds, of which 1.65 go through, with another small amount stopped by FNP, for 1.375 total wounds to Angron.

Next turn, Angron only hits with 4, wounds with 3.3, 1.65 go through Logan's Invuln. For a total of 3.85 wounds, or a most likely dead Logan Grimnar.

So, in total, he can survive a Primarch for one round, and deal a wound or two to him.

Edit: And Angron has a 3+ Armour save. That's what I was thinking of.

Edit II: Oh, and Angron has IWND, so he can recover that wound he lost to Logan.

 JNAProductions wrote:
A King Of The Common Man let's Logan Look Out Sir!

That's him using himself as a shield for other people, not him using others as a shield.

And I don't have Angron's stats, so I can't run the math there. (Isn't Angron only AP3, though?)

...Are you sure you understand how 40k works?

First point: The Independent Character rule allows Grimnar to make Look Out, Sir! rolls. Adding an extra rule to let him do so is redundant. The one I've seen written in earlier posts makes the roll auto-pass rather than pass on a 2+.

Second point: Look Out, Sir! is a mechanic that lets other models in the unit suffer wounds that would otherwise be suffered by the character. In this case it'd let Grimnar force another model to take a wound in his place. Which to my mind is the moral equivalent of using them as human shields.

I've clearly worded it wrong. The intent is to let Logan take blows for other people (due to how LOS! works, only other characters, but still). So when the Sergeant of a Squad Logan is attached to takes a wound, Logan can automatically take it in his stead. How would you word it appropriately?

 JNAProductions wrote:
Okay, I looked up Angron on 1d4chan, so I don't know if I'm getting all his rules right.

Assuming Logan gets the charge, Angron strikes first with 6 WS9 S8 attacks, hitting on 3s, rerolling due to Hatred, for 5.3 hits on average, wounding on 2s, for 4.4 wounds, Logan saving on 4s for 2.2 wounds.

Logan then strikes, with 7-9 (average 8) S9 attacks, hitting on 4s, no rerolls, for 4 hits, 3.3 wounds, of which 1.65 go through, with another small amount stopped by FNP, for 1.375 total wounds to Angron.

Next turn, Angron only hits with 4, wounds with 3.3, 1.65 go through Logan's Invuln. For a total of 3.85 wounds, or a most likely dead Logan Grimnar.

So, in total, he can survive a Primarch for one round, and deal a wound or two to him.

Edit: And Angron has a 3+ Armour save. That's what I was thinking of.

Edit II: Oh, and Angron has IWND, so he can recover that wound he lost to Logan.

Missed Hatred in my first run. So it turns out the 400pt Primarch actually does beat the 250pt Chapter Master.

You're still quite a ways off, but I may need to find a better example.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
I've clearly worded it wrong. The intent is to let Logan take blows for other people (due to how LOS! works, only other characters, but still). So when the Sergeant of a Squad Logan is attached to takes a wound, Logan can automatically take it in his stead. How would you word it appropriately?

I wouldn't. It's irrelevant and unnecessary, especially given that Look Out, Sir! doesn't actually give you any choice of who takes the wound (nearest model in the same unit within 6"). Make Grimnar tank wounds for his unit by standing at the front of it like normal people, don't insist he needs a convoluted special rule to do it.

Fair enough. It probably wouldn't be used much anyway.

Rather than making a punchy character punchier (and thus raising eyebrows as you try and explain why he's punchier than all the other chapter masters), why not bring back his 5th edition special ability where he can hand out rules to his unit? It was one of the few abilities that actually made an HQ feel like a leader rather than a beatstick, and it opens up interesting combos (like relentless long fangs).