Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

pm713 wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Robin5t wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Dante is usually cited as the oldest living Space Marine and he's only around a thousand years old. The 30k figures who have stuck around have all benefitted from Chaos/daemonic influence and the nonlinear nature of time in the Warp; one of the reasons the Fallen are so difficult to find, for instance, is that they were scattered though time as well as space.

(As a secondary note I don't think any species' natural lifespan actually extends back that far, everyone I can think of is cheating somehow (Eldrad is a Farseer who's in the process of crystallizing, Bjorn is in a Dreadnaught and he's still going senile, the Necrons are actually dead, the Daemon Primarchs are Daemons...))

Well, there's Vect.

Using Haemonculi tech is definitely cheating.

You are assuming he's used Haemonculi tech to extend his life. I've not read anything that specifies how long the life span of an Eldar is, and nothing to suggest that the more long lived Dark Eldar like Vect and Lelith Hesperax have used the Haemonculi to extend their lives.

Considering Haemonculi can basically resurrect the dead that's definitely cheating.

Point.

Missed it.

Bjorn the Fel-Handed is over 10,000 years old at this point. I think he's the only loyalist who was alive during the Heresy and is alive now... unless his story changed in the recent campaign book?

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

There have probably been quite a few 'Eldrads' since the Horus Heresy, each wearing the ceremonial armour of their office.

Source?

Vect and the such definitely use haemonculi, I don't have my codex on me, but I am 90% sure its mentioned that almost all of the DE use it to live. Like Kabalite don't even stay dead after a battle, they are just brought back...

pm713 wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

There have probably been quite a few 'Eldrads' since the Horus Heresy, each wearing the ceremonial armour of their office.

Source?

You know I'm not certain. It was just an interesting theory posited by someone on a thread somewhere about Eldar lifespans.

The translation of 'Eldrad Ulthran' is canon, although I don't have the source.

The idea that there have been multiple Eldrads is just speculation, given what we know about Eldar lifespans (again, really must find a source for that...).

However, it is a plausible explanation using the general low quality of the information we're provided in the 40k universe to explain away an inconsistency in the fluff.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

There have probably been quite a few 'Eldrads' since the Horus Heresy, each wearing the ceremonial armour of their office.

Source?

You know I'm not certain. It was just an interesting theory posited by someone on a thread somewhere about Eldar lifespans.

The translation of 'Eldrad Ulthran' is canon, although I don't have the source.

The idea that there have been multiple Eldrads is just speculation, given what we know about Eldar lifespans (again, really must find a source for that...).

However, it is a plausible explanation using the general low quality of the information we're provided in the 40k universe to explain away an inconsistency in the fluff.

Honestly I like the idea of one Eldrad more.

 gummyofallbears wrote:
Vect and the such definitely use haemonculi, I don't have my codex on me, but I am 90% sure its mentioned that almost all of the DE use it to live. Like Kabalite don't even stay dead after a battle, they are just brought back...

I'm not sure how common it actually is. Whilst the nobles can definitely use it do all Kabalites have the influence/resources to get a haemonculus to do it?

pm713 wrote:

Honestly I like the idea of one Eldrad more.

To each their own

The issue comes with things like the description of the Staff of Ulthamar, which is passed down from one head seer of Ulthwe to the next. If Eldrad has been head seer of Ulthwe since the fall, there's no realy chance for it to be passed down.

It's stuff like that that bugs me, personally.

SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:
Vect and the such definitely use haemonculi, I don't have my codex on me, but I am 90% sure its mentioned that almost all of the DE use it to live. Like Kabalite don't even stay dead after a battle, they are just brought back...

I'm not sure how common it actually is. Whilst the nobles can definitely use it do all Kabalites have the influence/resources to get a haemonculus to do it?

Any Kabal/Wych Cult worth its salt will have a contract with a Haemi coven to resurrect its warriors.

A Kabal down on its luck or gutter scum like Hellions may not be able to afford the services of the Haemonculi, but I believe their soul drinking/power from pain ability can extend their lives past the norm for Eldar.

Alas, I don't have a direct source for that.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

'Eldrad Ulthran' actually translates to 'eldest seer of Ulthwe' or something like that. It's a title, like Cypher.

No it doesn't. Seriously, if people don't have the source and cannot quote and cite it, they should stop making stuff up.

Chief amongst the Farseers of Ulthwe is Eldrad Ulthran, which means Eldrad the foremost of Ulthwe.

p. 87, 2nd edition Eldar Codex

Eldrad is the name. Ulthran is the title.

Eldrad being 10,000 years old is a stupid retcon done by GW people that had no conception of the existing background for Eldar lifespans (given in 2nd edition Eldar Codex to be a bit over 1,000 years) and based on a stupid Ranger's insults towards an Inquisitor. Instead of taking the insults as hyperbolic statements, they took it as literal and made Eldrad 10,000 years old.

 Imateria wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Robin5t wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Dante is usually cited as the oldest living Space Marine and he's only around a thousand years old. The 30k figures who have stuck around have all benefitted from Chaos/daemonic influence and the nonlinear nature of time in the Warp; one of the reasons the Fallen are so difficult to find, for instance, is that they were scattered though time as well as space.

(As a secondary note I don't think any species' natural lifespan actually extends back that far, everyone I can think of is cheating somehow (Eldrad is a Farseer who's in the process of crystallizing, Bjorn is in a Dreadnaught and he's still going senile, the Necrons are actually dead, the Daemon Primarchs are Daemons...))

Well, there's Vect.

Using Haemonculi tech is definitely cheating.

You are assuming he's used Haemonculi tech to extend his life. I've not read anything that specifies how long the life span of an Eldar is, and nothing to suggest that the more long lived Dark Eldar like Vect and Lelith Hesperax have used the Haemonculi to extend their lives.

Given that the only Eldar who've been around since the 30th Milennium and are still here to tell about it are either slowly crystalizing or dead souls piloting a suit of armour and possessing a new wearer every now and again I'm operating under the assumption that their 'natural lifespan' may be long, but it's well short of 10,000+ years.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Imateria wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Robin5t wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
Dante is usually cited as the oldest living Space Marine and he's only around a thousand years old. The 30k figures who have stuck around have all benefitted from Chaos/daemonic influence and the nonlinear nature of time in the Warp; one of the reasons the Fallen are so difficult to find, for instance, is that they were scattered though time as well as space.

(As a secondary note I don't think any species' natural lifespan actually extends back that far, everyone I can think of is cheating somehow (Eldrad is a Farseer who's in the process of crystallizing, Bjorn is in a Dreadnaught and he's still going senile, the Necrons are actually dead, the Daemon Primarchs are Daemons...))

Well, there's Vect.

Using Haemonculi tech is definitely cheating.

You are assuming he's used Haemonculi tech to extend his life. I've not read anything that specifies how long the life span of an Eldar is, and nothing to suggest that the more long lived Dark Eldar like Vect and Lelith Hesperax have used the Haemonculi to extend their lives.

Given that the only Eldar who've been around since the 30th Milennium and are still here to tell about it are either slowly crystalizing or dead souls piloting a suit of armour and possessing a new wearer every now and again I'm operating under the assumption that their 'natural lifespan' may be long, but it's well short of 10,000+ years.

The source for Eldar lifespans:

The Eldar are extremely long lived by human standards, commonly surviving for over a thousand years before old age overtakes them.

p. 7, 2nd edition Eldar Codex

Of course now that I think about it, "Eldrad Ulthran" being a title, and not an actual name (such as Cypher) would explain how Eldrad died during the 13th Black Crusade but is still going strong. Not saying it is correct, but it does explain potential conflicts.

Hrm. Have any of the Phoenix Lords survived without having been killed? Aside from Karandas, I believe they all started their training right around The Fall, which would put them in the 10k-ish years range.

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
Hrm. Have any of the Phoenix Lords survived without having been killed? Aside from Karandas, I believe they all started their training right around The Fall, which would put them in the 10k-ish years range.

Karandras is as old as the Fall too, and was a child when found and adopted by Arhra on one of the Crone Worlds (p. 406-408, Path of the Eldar novel)

Iracundus wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
Hrm. Have any of the Phoenix Lords survived without having been killed? Aside from Karandas, I believe they all started their training right around The Fall, which would put them in the 10k-ish years range.

Karandras is as old as the Fall too, and was a child when found and adopted by Arhra on one of the Crone Worlds (p. 406-408, Path of the Eldar novel)

Thanks, I didn't know that!

I think I was reading elsewhere on the forums that Karandras only became a Phoenix Lord relatively recently. Would he have been able to perform the same sort of "my armor contains my soul and overwrites whoever next wears it" trick that the other Phoenix Lords use to resurrect when they die before he became a Phoenix Lord?

 Unusual Suspect wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

 Unusual Suspect wrote:
Hrm. Have any of the Phoenix Lords survived without having been killed? Aside from Karandas, I believe they all started their training right around The Fall, which would put them in the 10k-ish years range.

Karandras is as old as the Fall too, and was a child when found and adopted by Arhra on one of the Crone Worlds (p. 406-408, Path of the Eldar novel)

Thanks, I didn't know that!

I think I was reading elsewhere on the forums that Karandras only became a Phoenix Lord relatively recently. Would he have been able to perform the same sort of "my armor contains my soul and overwrites whoever next wears it" trick that the other Phoenix Lords use to resurrect when they die before he became a Phoenix Lord?

What you read was wrong information. I have already corrected that poster.

Iracundus wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

'Eldrad Ulthran' actually translates to 'eldest seer of Ulthwe' or something like that. It's a title, like Cypher.

No it doesn't. Seriously, if people don't have the source and cannot quote and cite it, they should stop making stuff up.

Chief amongst the Farseers of Ulthwe is Eldrad Ulthran, which means Eldrad the foremost of Ulthwe.

p. 87, 2nd edition Eldar Codex

Eldrad is the name. Ulthran is the title.

Eldrad being 10,000 years old is a stupid retcon done by GW people that had no conception of the existing background for Eldar lifespans (given in 2nd edition Eldar Codex to be a bit over 1,000 years) and based on a stupid Ranger's insults towards an Inquisitor. Instead of taking the insults as hyperbolic statements, they took it as literal and made Eldrad 10,000 years old.

Ah I see, thanks for clearing that up.

I did know about the Ranger insulting the Inquisitor thing as the original source for Eldrad being 10k+, and I've long been irritated by his sandwiching into the Horus Heresy fluff because they were too lazy to come up with another Eldar character.

I suppose the 'there's multiple Eldrads' idea is, like a lot of things, a patch to cover up inconsistencies in the fluff.

Applying Occam's Razor to the whole mess, I suppose the simplest solution given the available evidence is that the Imperials didn't know who this Eldar seer was, and later tellings have assumed it was Eldrad.

That explanation seems to violate as few things we know as possible (the only thing it violates is the BL novel itself which didn't do its research properly).

The Eldar are extremely long lived by human standards, commonly surviving for over a thousand years before old age overtakes them.

p. 7, 2nd edition Eldar Codex

I recall reading somewhere that Maugan Ra has never died, but with him it's kind of difficult the separate the fact from the internet meme.

 Robin5t wrote:
I recall reading somewhere that Maugan Ra has never died, but with him it's kind of difficult the separate the fact from the internet meme.

No such source to my knowledge. If you have something from GW, cite and quote it. If you can't cite and quote it, don't say it as if it were true or from GW.

All too much misinformation and made up fanfiction is passed off as true under the catchphrase "I recall reading/hearing somewhere..." , when in reality it is misremembered, made-up speculation, or from unreliable 3rd party hearsay sources.

Like I said, difficult to separate the fact from the internet meme. Tried to find a source for it but no such luck, posted it in case anyone else had read it anywhere and seeing that would jog their memory.

Just wait and someone elsewhere will probably go "I saw on Dakkadakka someone say this is true"

False information without a shred of evidence gets repeated like this because posting about it gives it a false legitimacy. Let it die

In fairness considering the codex says Maugan Ra defeated a Tyranid swarm alone it's easy to mix up fanfiction and lore.

Just to clear things up.

I'm the one who brought the *theory* (as personal headcanon but not real lore) that Ulthran it's a title and there may be an explanation at several farseers donning the suit and playing the role, this may explain the retcon and sudden increase in Eldar lifespan from 1-2k years to almost 10k for him, based on the text of him from Codex 2nd ED by i never claimed that was true, just a personal headcannon and may be possible theory.


The difference between Phoenix Lords and Exarchs it's just age and practice, according to fluff the Phoenix Lords are the 1st Exarchs (and it's more of a specific title) from each temple and all Exarchs/Phoenix Lords works under the same multiple soul merging ability, even if Karandras just become the de-facto Phoenix Lord for Striking Scorpions a hundred years ago, he just took the mantle/title but all his abilities was part of being an Exarch of the temple for thousands years. (Lorewise nothing prevent that the 2nd Exarch from other temples can be almost as powerful as their temple Phoenix Lord)

Iracundus wrote:

 Robin5t wrote:
I recall reading somewhere that Maugan Ra has never died, but with him it's kind of difficult the separate the fact from the internet meme.

No such source to my knowledge. If you have something from GW, cite and quote it. If you can't cite and quote it, don't say it as if it were true or from GW.

All too much misinformation and made up fanfiction is passed off as true under the catchphrase "I recall reading/hearing somewhere..." , when in reality it is misremembered, made-up speculation, or from unreliable 3rd party hearsay sources.

Well GW says that all canon is true canon. Even that which we make up. So... you're just as wrong as you are right.

pm713 wrote:
In fairness considering the codex says Maugan Ra defeated a Tyranid swarm alone it's easy to mix up fanfiction and lore.

Which is where the misinformation comes in, it says he held a gate alone, not that he defeated a swarm alone.

 DeffDred wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

 Robin5t wrote:
I recall reading somewhere that Maugan Ra has never died, but with him it's kind of difficult the separate the fact from the internet meme.

No such source to my knowledge. If you have something from GW, cite and quote it. If you can't cite and quote it, don't say it as if it were true or from GW.

All too much misinformation and made up fanfiction is passed off as true under the catchphrase "I recall reading/hearing somewhere..." , when in reality it is misremembered, made-up speculation, or from unreliable 3rd party hearsay sources.

Well GW says that all canon is true canon. Even that which we make up. So... you're just as wrong as you are right.

Only a matter of time til somebody trotted out this tired old non-answer and excuse by GW for laziness. Clearly there IS a de facto canon at work as the existence of the Heresy, bolters firing bolts, and the like is never in dispute. Otherwise I could say bolters fire daisies or that Space Marines do not and have never existed. Without a canon, in other words a working structure around the foundation facts and rules of a fictional universe, everything collapses into incoherent nonsense. GW may not stipulate precisely where the boundaries of canon are, and the boundaries may be fuzzy, but there are still some boundaries beyond which GW would say "That is not 40K".

To quote another poster:

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Gascoigne's entire spiel is a clear copout and non-answer.

By definition, something cannot be both true (canon) and untrue (non-canon) simultaneously. Either its true, or it isn't.


It's clear that GW isn't following some 'nothing is canon' line, since 99% of their output is consistent (with the remainder being errors and/or retcons).


Given the level of criticism levelled at GW generally, and Black Library sloppiness specifically, it's always amazed me that an answer which essentially boils down to 'Meh. Not going to give an answer' is held up as if it's making some deep, worthwhile, or even logical point.

While I do agree with you, there is a reason the 40k background is called 'fluff' and not 'canon'.

Canon implies that it is set in stone. Fluff implies the exact opposite, and personally I feel it's much better that way.

Yes, it's a copout in a number of circumstances, but it's also a beautiful concept.

Through the judicious use of propaganda, misinformation and plain old ignorance you can construct the background how you see fit. You can make it yours.

If you want your Astartes to be nigh-unstoppable killing machines, the fluff is there to support that. If you want them to be better than humans, but still easily killable by the myriad horrors of the galaxy, the fluff is there to support that two (and both of those examples can exist in parallel by saying that one is propaganda and the other is true).

I will draw a difference between plain misquoting of fluff (like the Maugan Ra example Imateria states above) and the intentional classification of a particular piece of fluff as incorrect/invention of a theory to explain something.

Clearly, some things are more difficult to refute than others. For instance, claiming the Horus Heresy didn't happen is going to be pretty difficult.

However, insisting that 40k has a canon that is set in stone, and then made up bits tacked on the side doesn't really describe it accurately.

It might be uncomfortable to a lot of people who like to know whether something is absolutely true, but that's simply the reality of 40k.

Simple:

Someone says "Space Marines are a lie and have never existed in the 40K universe. The Primarchs, Emperor, and the whole Imperium are total lies and don't exist."

Do you accept this? If no, then you have just shown there is a canon for you to be able to definitively say that "No, this is not true." for anything at all in the 40K universe.

Iracundus wrote:
Simple:

Someone says "Space Marines are a lie and have never existed in the 40K universe. The Primarchs, Emperor, and the whole Imperium are total lies and don't exist."

Do you accept this? If no, then you have just shown there is a canon for you to be able to definitively say that "No, this is not true." for anything at all in the 40K universe.

Not canon, fluff I can say 'that is highly unlikely to be true, given the body of evidence I can demonstrate'. However, if someone could put together a convincing case to show that, in fact, Space Marines might not exist then personally I'm not at liberty to tell them they're definitely wrong.

For an example, I heard the other day that there's a Black Library novel in which a Salamanders librarian leaps from the surface of a planet out into space and psychically slices a battleship in half. Sickening.

If we take everything written down as canon, then that absolutely happened which breaks a lot of the other stuff we know about how stuff works in the 40k universe.

However, I choose to believe that most BL novels are, in fact, recounted to you by a random drunkard/lunatic you met in the pub. Thus, anything you hear could well be utterly fictitious.

Makes me feel better about it at the very least

I will definitely concede that some things are much harder to refute than others, and if you want to call that canon then I suppose by my very philosophy I can't stop you

I really have no problem with eldar having a potential lifespan of 10 000+ years. Even if that would be true, most eldar would probably not make past a millennium or two. This is because there are other causes of death than old age and over the years the chances of being eaten by tyranids or slipping in the shower accumulate.

If people were ageless and immune to diseases, with average American death rate by injury or violence, less than half of the people would live to be 1000. So assume it would be pretty similar to eldar, most of the population being under two thousand with few lucky individuals who have survived longer.

People often don't realise this. It is the same thing in WoW with draenei and night elves. People think that because they don't age most of the population would be several thousands of years old.