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The new Haemotrope Reactor and the Munitorum Armoured Container Cache have wounds and toughness values. I believe that these are early glimpse of 8th Ed 40k where hull points and av will be removed from the game. Anyone else thinking this?

If this happens, it's a pretty big change to how the game is played. Many vehicles will get tougher or weaker depending on how their stats work. That also means that no more armor facing shenanigans. Ramming and Tank shocking would have to change as well.

Also since this edition is rumoured to streamline the game - would all vehicle classes would become variants of MC and GMC using those rules or amalgamating MC/GC rules with some of the vehicle rules?

Weapons with USRs would also have to change as many rules are designed to work on AV. We could we see something like:

Melta - d3 wounds & each wound at half range causes 2 wounds instead of 1.
Lance - Reduces armor save by 2 - ex. 2+ save would be a 4+ save against this weapon.
Armourbane - ignores armor saves
Ordnance - Cannot fire snap shots - Does 2d3 wounds
Primary Weapon - Does 2d3 wounds
Instant Death - On vehicles does an additional d3 wounds after initial wounds are rolled.

Grav - grav would have to change! 15 grav shots from centurions or 18 from kataphron destroyers would be so broken. Not sure what the fix is.
Haywire - not sure what to do here.
Poison - Same but some vehicle MC's or GMCs may modify what number is required to wound it.

I could definitely see a Wound chart for MC/GC/Vs - perhaps some weapons cause these model types to be penalized for a turn with some type of affliction.

Not entirely sure proposed rules is the right place instead of maybe general discussion or added to news and rumors?

That being said, Good. AV is a stupid system and I want it gone.

 Lance845 wrote:
Not entirely sure proposed rules is the right place instead of maybe general discussion or added to news and rumors?

That being said, Good. AV is a stupid system and I want it gone.

I think he's more asking for ideas on how to alter the system to work with this new concept of development?

Naaris wrote:Weapons with USRs would also have to change as many rules are designed to work on AV. We could we see something like:

Melta - d3 wounds & each wound at half range causes 2 wounds instead of 1.
Lance - Reduces armor save by 2 - ex. 2+ save would be a 4+ save against this weapon.
Armourbane - ignores armor saves
Ordnance - Cannot fire snap shots - Does 2d3 wounds
Primary Weapon - Does 2d3 wounds
Instant Death - On vehicles does an additional d3 wounds after initial wounds are rolled.

Grav - grav would have to change! 15 grav shots from centurions or 18 from kataphron destroyers would be so broken. Not sure what the fix is.
Haywire - not sure what to do here.
Poison - Same but some vehicle MC's or GMCs may modify what number is required to wound it.

Interesting.

How I would do them (provided that we don't see an AoS increase of Wounds):
First establish that Vehicle Types are Immune to Force, Fleshbane, and Poison. Not just a Save like Fantasy 8th's "Immunity", they just a flat out do not work.

Melta - 2+ to Wound on Vehicles and Buildings at half range.
Lance - Toughness of Vehicles is considered 6 for resolving To Wound.
Armourbane - 2+ to Wound on Vehicles and Buildings.
Ordnance - Cannot fire snap shots - Reroll To Wound on Vehicles and Vehicle Instant Death on a Roll of 6+.
Primary Weapon - Reroll To Wound on Vehicles and Vehicle Instant Death on a Roll of 6+. (easier then rolling two dice, yes?)
Haywire - Auto-Wound Vehicles on To-Wound Rolls of 4+ (best compromise with current system), only Wounds non-Vehicles on a 6+.

Instant Death - Attacks with Instant Death must specify that they work on Vehicles in order to work, otherwise, Vehicles are immune to this effect.
Grav - Can only Wound Vehicles on 6+. Otherwise normal.
Sniper - Can only Wound Vehicles on 6+. Otherwise normal.

That's the best compromise I can think of. That having been said, if we see an AoS-style increase of Wounds on Vehicles, through most of those suggestions out and go with the multi-Wound concepts you're going with, Naaris.

Naaris wrote:
The new Haemotrope Reactor and the Munitorum Armoured Container Cache have wounds and toughness values. I believe that these are early glimpse of 8th Ed 40k where hull points and av will be removed from the game. Anyone else thinking this?

Honestly?
No, I don't think so. I think that people need to read the classification for the Haemotrope Reactor and the Munitorum Armoured Container Caches.

They're both classified as "Battlefield Debris", not Buildings.

Battlefield Debris is something that has been around for awhile. Gun Emplacements were done exactly like this, with the whole Toughness, save, and Wounds.
Gun Emplacements(which are the Icarus Lascannon, Icarus Autocannon, and interestingly enough the gun battery on the Tidewall Gunrig) all are T7, 2W, with a 3+ save.

This is why, IMO, people really should read through Stronghold Assault or the BRB. Not everything that you think is a building is.

There have been terrain elements with T/Sv values instead of vehicle defensive stats since Planetary Assault was first printed in 5th, at least (earlier if you count the fact that Artillery weapons have had T/Sv since 3rd). Vehicles haven't shown any sign of hopping to T/Sv yet.

Let toughness go above 10, allow toughness to vary by facing, provide the AoS system whereby as you take damage your whole profile changes - forget destroying weapons and other such in this scale, just mark the damage points.

Apart from T11+ and different values on facing we are then back to how vehicle damage used to be

leopard wrote:
Let toughness go above 10, allow toughness to vary by facing, provide the AoS system whereby as you take damage your whole profile changes - forget destroying weapons and other such in this scale, just mark the damage points.

Apart from T11+ and different values on facing we are then back to how vehicle damage used to be

...Wait, making your entire profile change every time you take a wound has something to do with how vehicle damage used to work?

(Also why, exactly, do AoS advocates insist that making us memorize longer and longer tables of numbers is a positive thing?)

Yea I'd like to see the AV system scrapped. I suppose we'd have to get a big table converting all current vehicles to a toughness and armour save but it's better in the long run

leopard wrote:
Let toughness go above 10, allow toughness to vary by facing, provide the AoS system whereby as you take damage your whole profile changes - forget destroying weapons and other such in this scale, just mark the damage points.

Apart from T11+ and different values on facing we are then back to how vehicle damage used to be

Why go above T10? T10 and AV14 are equivalent

 AnomanderRake wrote:

leopard wrote:
Let toughness go above 10, allow toughness to vary by facing, provide the AoS system whereby as you take damage your whole profile changes - forget destroying weapons and other such in this scale, just mark the damage points.

Apart from T11+ and different values on facing we are then back to how vehicle damage used to be

...Wait, making your entire profile change every time you take a wound has something to do with how vehicle damage used to work?

(Also why, exactly, do AoS advocates insist that making us memorize longer and longer tables of numbers is a positive thing?)

Gonna be honest, it's not that complex. You don't have to memorize jack--it's right there in the unit's warscroll.

Anyways...I still want to see Armor Value remain. There's tweaks that can be made to mitigate Glancing Hits and the like.

In regards to this thread though, none of this is on topic.