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I think the two Guy Haley books (Throneworld and the Beheading) were the best two of the series, which isn't to dismiss the fact that the series had an incredible first half (from the story of that PDF lady on Undine to the battle in which the Imperial Navy finally manages to ice an attack moon to the Harlequin raid on the Imperial Palace). However, that second half of the series that involves no less than three attempts to invade the Krork homeworld really made me groan, but that last tome redeemed the series from that.

I was listening to the series via audiobook while at work, so it was hard to restrain the urge to hoot and holler withe the Veritus reveal.


The stories of the some of the High Lords before they meet their ends were also quite touching, from some showing genuine remorse for their inaction to others owning up to their tragic blunders.

I also hope I'm not the only one who hopes to see that Shadowseer make another appearance in a Black Library joint, preferably in her own Harlequin-centric series (with Guy Haley at the helm, of course, since unlike that dumpster fire that was Death Masque he really does them justice in TBA and Valedor). The fact that she was ultimately freed by Weinand but the event was only touched on for all of three sentences and the hint that she would play a role in some human/Eldar rapprochement (such as they are) gives me the hunch she'll figure in some future storyline. Perhaps within that 100 years of Vangorich's de facto reign at the head of the Senatorum.

The reveals in Beheading were great. I think the one that deals with Ullanor blew my mind.

The reveal of who Veritus was legit shocked me.

 Harriticus wrote:
The reveal of who Veritus was legit shocked me.

My jaw dropped to the floor when I read that passage. I hope we get more information about the founding of the Inquisition from the Horus Heresy series.

I agree that the first half was enjoyable, the second half not so much.

I was very disappointed with the lack of Xenos though. I had hoped the Eldar involvement to be more than a single piece of a single book.

I had also hoped that, as the antagonists, the Orks would have been developed. Named Warbosses who form enmities with their Imperium counterparts, villains to become attached and invested in and not simply a oppositional force.

In particular the Beast disappointed me. He was powerful but, his only real characterization in the story being his conversation with Vulkan, made him come across like a generic Chaos Warlord as opposed to the characterization Orks like Mogrok, Ghazghkull, Badrukk and Grukk had recieved, who were more interesting to me.

My biggest take away, though, is simply why the Imperium has not repeated the 'reverse-waaagh' trick with Culexus assassins and Wierdboyz yet. It now seems to be such a crippling weakness of the Orks, making them vulnerable to any society who has nulls and can catch a Wierdboy, that I am baffled it seems to simply never be repeated.

What was the reverse Waaugh?

I believe it was the term they used at one point to describe the process of taking a Wierdboy, putting him around Nulls, then exposing him to a mass of Orks again to create a chain reaction of heads exploding.

It is so effective that it can kill the Beast (An Ork of Primarch if not beyond Level) and an entire planet covered in Orks.

 Anemone wrote:
My biggest take away, though, is simply why the Imperium has not repeated the 'reverse-waaagh' trick with Culexus assassins and Wierdboyz yet. It now seems to be such a crippling weakness of the Orks, making them vulnerable to any society who has nulls and can catch a Wierdboy, that I am baffled it seems to simply never be repeated.

Simple answer. The Ordo Redactus. No one, especially this particular branch of the Inquisition, wants people to remember a time when an Ork Death Star was in orbit around Terra, that almost the entire Segmentum Solar had fallen to Orks, or that the HLoT had denied the Imperium a meaningful defense through their own self-interest. Thus the entire time period would be seen as the perfect candidate for purging, with what remains as only the one or two sentences we see on the 40k timeline.

I wouldn't be surprised if this tactic was re-discovered over and over again by future administrations, only for it to never be disseminated, or for it to be purged once again due to the circumstances of its discovery.

I guess. So the Orks only really stand a chance cause of the Imperium's stupidity. Cause with this tactic it'd be easy to wipe all Orks out, not even a challenge.

That's disappointing.

 Anemone wrote:
I guess. So the Orks only really stand a chance cause of the Imperium's stupidity. Cause with this tactic it'd be easy to wipe all Orks out, not even a challenge.

That's disappointing.

That's true of every single enemy in 40k, Chaos and Tyranids included. The Imperium will always be its own worst enemy.

Wow, great, glad to know all factions in the game other than the Imperium are only meaningful because of the Imperium letting them be.

 Anemone wrote:
I guess. So the Orks only really stand a chance cause of the Imperium's stupidity. Cause with this tactic it'd be easy to wipe all Orks out, not even a challenge.

That's disappointing.

To be fair the Orks apparently could have devastated Terra but chose not so... the Imperium only stood a chance because of the Beasts stupidity?

It's not really any worse background than making the Indominus Astra detonate it's Warp Drive to destroy a significant proportion of a Hive Fleet. The authors probably didn't think through the ramifications.

Yeah but the Ork attack moon was a onetime thing. The Imperium can guard against it.

The Orks have no means of guarding against the reverse-Waaagh!!! effect. Literally if the Imperium hadn't 'forgotten' about it they could have already driven the Orks to extinction easily since its a simple procedure which wipes out whole planets of Orks at a time and they have no mechanism to defend or hide against it.

I read this series after "Deathwatch" and the reference to ancient oaths has so much more weight now

Not to fulfil the stereotype of an armchair critic, but the 'reverse-waaagh' thing feels like a lazy Deus Ex Machina plot device to me, rather than something that's implications were actually thought out.

Plus, it's less that the other factions exist only because the Imperium can't get its act together, it's more that the Imperium itself is fantastically powerless against its own bureaucracy. Compared to fighting a galactic-scale conflict, sorting out that mess is a Herculean task.

It took them 10,000 years to twist the careful work of Guilliman into the tortured mess you see today, and barring bloody revolution I can't see it ever going back that way...

I'm not a fan of the 'reverse-waaagh', no, I think it was silly and its existence renders Orks almost completely impotent as a threat.

Unless lazy writing somehow makes everyone forget it exists.

Understanding it's lazy writing can help people dismiss it as the ridiculous waffling of a fanboy rather than something to pay attention to, which helps

I'll have to remember that, thank you

I need some levity.

The reverse Waugh is like the old throwaway joke about a disgraced mangos biologis discovering that common weed killer is super effective against ork spores just before he and all his work are purged...but now it's the actual plot? That's up there with "we made a virus that kills hive fleets...but only when it's convenient for the writers."


Hopefully we'll get a redonkulous Ciaphas Cain novel out of it.

who is "The Beast"?

The reverse-waaagh greatly frustrates me as it renders the Orks a non-threat against any half-way competent force with access to blanks now.

@LightKing: The Beast was a single Ork Warboss (or six, although one was larger than the others and referred to as the Beast of Beasts) who was very large and powerful and managed to secretly build up the greatest Ork Waaagh!!! the Imperium has ever encountered off-screen (equipped with incredibly technology) despite not having foregoing large conflicts to feed it first the way Orks normally require to grow stronger.

He invaded the Imperium and was eventually killed along with his Primeorks (the leaders of the Waaagh) and the center of his operations.

Following this his Waaagh and armies were scoured from the Imperium over the next century.

That's a summary.

 Anemone wrote:
The reverse-waaagh greatly frustrates me as it renders the Orks a non-threat against any half-way competent force with access to blanks now.

@LightKing: The Beast was a single Ork Warboss (or six, although one was larger than the others and referred to as the Beast of Beasts) who was very large and powerful and managed to secretly build up the greatest Ork Waaagh!!! the Imperium has ever encountered off-screen (equipped with incredibly technology) despite not having foregoing large conflicts to feed it first the way Orks normally require to grow stronger.

He invaded the Imperium and was eventually killed along with his Primeorks (the leaders of the Waaagh) and the center of his operations.

Following this his Waaagh and armies were scoured from the Imperium over the next century.

That's a summary.

Didn't Vulkan kill him?

No Vulkan failed spectacularly.

Plus there's a huge spoiler about Ullanor as well which explains why a certain Planet is so interesting to Orks in 40k.

WOW. Glad I stopped reading after book 3.

 bound for glory wrote:
WOW. Glad I stopped reading after book 3.

That's a shame because the actual HLoT and political sections of the series are all excellent. Especially Vangorich's fall into frustration and madness.

I'd have to agree that in general, while there were some good ideas and good parts to the stories, it badly needed some tighter editorial control. And maybe fewer, but longer books, by not as many authors. I would not place it at the top of the heap for Black Library fiction. Yet I am not sorry I read it all by any means, and would certainly be interested in similar future projects. If they were managed a little better...

There's definitely some loose ends they didn't cover very well for the Orks. I loved the idea of the Prime Orks and the clans like Goffs being created almost like a result of a localized species immune system response against the scale of threat being forced upon the Orks from the Great Crusade and them mirroring their former conquerors in their rebound against them. Sadly, they really didn't delve deeper into how the hyper-evolved Orks, how exactly they originated nor much of their own views and goals towards the Imperium besides establishing dominance, enslaving and beating the tar out of the oomies.

I'd agree with the broad consensus of 'good and promising ideas' whilst lacking in execution. Additionally it definitely, overall, gets worse as it goes on.

Personally I found the Beheading a bit jarring just because it was a full book in which there is no The Beast. Would have preferred it to stand on its own then.

Vangorich is perhaps the one good take away from the whole thing I'd say. Whereas the reverse-waaagh is the worst for me.

Although I enjoyed the Orks being dangerous I'd have preferred a bit more of a larger-galaxy wide battle view, as we only had near the beginning, to get a better idea of their military strength. I'd also really have loved more Ork characters, Warbosses and such to serve as rivals and enemies, and was severely disappointed with the lack of fleshing out Orks (since I greatly disliked the Beast's brief characterization).

 Anemone wrote:
I'd agree with the broad consensus of 'good and promising ideas' whilst lacking in execution. Additionally it definitely, overall, gets worse as it goes on.

Personally I found the Beheading a bit jarring just because it was a full book in which there is no The Beast. Would have preferred it to stand on its own then.

Vangorich is perhaps the one good take away from the whole thing I'd say. Whereas the reverse-waaagh is the worst for me.

Although I enjoyed the Orks being dangerous I'd have preferred a bit more of a larger-galaxy wide battle view, as we only had near the beginning, to get a better idea of their military strength. I'd also really have loved more Ork characters, Warbosses and such to serve as rivals and enemies, and was severely disappointed with the lack of fleshing out Orks (since I greatly disliked the Beast's brief characterization).

I think part of the disappointment comes from how the series is written by multiple authors. Some are clearly more than capable of fleshing out and structuring their story (Guy Haley for example who I think did some of the best books IMO like "Throneworld" and "The Beheading") while others clearly had more on their plate than they could handle like Rob Sanders who dun goofed hard with Shadow of Ullanor. I'm sure there was some measure of co-ordination between the authors but unfortunately at the end of the day it's a lot easier to maintain consistency and story threads when it's just one or two authors handling the series.

Is this book series any good?