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So in two weeks I will be in my first real apocalypse game. I will be taking my imperial guard and I just about have my list done, except for my final tanks I have the models for either LRBTs or Demolishers. Also one thing to note, this is a game themed around tanks so there will be no SHW and all infantry must be in transports.

So my question is, for those of you that have experience with apocalypse games have you found longer ranges to be more useful then better killing power, or is it better to be able to kill things better but only when their close?

In a normal game I'd probably take the demolisher because the table is small enough that by turn two your almost guaranteed to have something in range, but I don't know how well that holds up in apocalypse. But with the LRBT is it really helpful to have things in range if you can't kill them?

In case it comes up it is a 4000 points per player game with 4-6 players per side, and my list already has
3 Vanquishers w/plasma cannons and lascannons
3 Exterminators w/lascannons ans heavy bolters
3 Punishers w/multimeltas and lascannons
3 Executioners w/lascannons and plasma cannons
1 tech-priest w/a trojan
1 Baneblade
1 Shadowsword

I have been told it will be imperium verses xenos/chaos

What is the terrain features of the table you are playing? If lots of LoS blocking terrain, longer firing range would be less an advantage.

It's all about the mighty D, isn't it?

If you're not using Destroyer weapons, you're not reliably moving enough models off the table and you're needlessly slowing down the game. S10 large blasts (and bigger) also do the trick most of the time, assuming you can ignore cover.

In case you don't have any Titans or Typhons, remember the classic Aquila Strongpoint+Firespear Strike Force+Hunter's Eye combo for 4 Str D ignores cover 5" blasts per turn.

The correct answer is both. Anything with less than 48" range (and, ideally, 72" range) is worthless because an average Apocalypse game lasts one turn (maybe two turns if you're very stubborn about it). If you aren't in range to immediately shoot with a unit then you wasted everyone's time by putting it on the table. But at the same time anything less than STR 10 (or STR 9 with barrage) is worthless in a tank battle because it can't reliably hurt AV 13-14, so putting those weaker guns on the table is also a waste of everyone's time. If you need to kill infantry or flyers then 5" and larger blasts with AP 2-3 and STR 7+ AA weapons also become relevant, but it doesn't sound like this game is going to have much of either. So, in the list you have the Vanquishers, Baneblade and Shadowsword are the only relevant units, don't even bother bringing any of the other stuff. But maybe they'll let you proxy all the other LRBT variants as more Vanquishers?

What are you gona do vs drops if you only have tanks than?

Arent there outflank stratagems in Apoc? Some of those tank builds could usefully outflank and do some damage.

Neophyte2012 wrote:What is the terrain features of the table you are playing? If lots of LoS blocking terrain, longer firing range would be less an advantage.

Unfortunately I know very little about the table we will be playing on. I can say there will be three fortifications (a bastion, an Aquila Strong point, and an imperial primaris redoubt, never heard of that last one before) and the objective is to garrison them. I have also been told the table will be larger then normal, but weather that's larger then the standard 6x4(which I had assumed) or larger then their normal apocalypse table they didn't say. The table is going to be set up specifically for a huge tank battle so I doubt there will be a ton of LoS blocking terrain.

Lammikkovalas wrote:It's all about the mighty D, isn't it?

If you're not using Destroyer weapons, you're not reliably moving enough models off the table and you're needlessly slowing down the game. S10 large blasts (and bigger) also do the trick most of the time, assuming you can ignore cover.

In case you don't have any Titans or Typhons, remember the classic Aquila Strongpoint+Firespear Strike Force+Hunter's Eye combo for 4 Str D ignores cover 5" blasts per turn.

I have all the str D weapons my guard have in the list (one shadowsword, not impressive I know but it's what I have) the rest is the best I can do with out proxies which I want to avoid to keep the confusion about what each unit has down.

Though SHW aren't allowed in this game so no titans, and I don't think we are allowed to bring fortifications of our own, also I don't play space marines so I can't use their stuff.

koooaei wrote:What are you gona do vs drops if you only have tanks than?

My plan was to bubble wrap the super heavies and the vanqishers with the shorter ranged tanks so if there are drop pods they won't have any good targets. Though I am probably going to be on the imperial's side so I shouldn't need to worry about it. In either case all infantry must start in transports so there isn't really any thing I can do about drop pods anyway.

Peregrine wrote:The correct answer is both. Anything with less than 48" range (and, ideally, 72" range) is worthless because an average Apocalypse game lasts one turn (maybe two turns if you're very stubborn about it). If you aren't in range to immediately shoot with a unit then you wasted everyone's time by putting it on the table. But at the same time anything less than STR 10 (or STR 9 with barrage) is worthless in a tank battle because it can't reliably hurt AV 13-14, so putting those weaker guns on the table is also a waste of everyone's time.

This pretty well sums up the dilemma that led to me making this thread.

Peregrine wrote:If you need to kill infantry or flyers then 5" and larger blasts with AP 2-3 and STR 7+ AA weapons also become relevant, but it doesn't sound like this game is going to have much of either. So, in the list you have the Vanquishers, Baneblade and Shadowsword are the only relevant units, don't even bother bringing any of the other stuff. But maybe they'll let you proxy all the other LRBT variants as more Vanquishers?

I have been trying to avoid proxying, I do have three of each non-forgeworld Leman Russ variant, but as you point out the vanquishers are really the only one worth any thing in this situation. I do have an emperor's wrath artillery company though I was wanting to keep my list mostly (if not all) tanks, and even if I do decide to bring the artillery I will still probably have to choose between LRBT and Demolishers so I was hoping to get some opinions on specifically LRBT vs Demolisher.

Ratius wrote:Arent there outflank stratagems in Apoc? Some of those tank builds could usefully outflank and do some damage.

I have never played a real apocalypse game before so I am not sure how that stuff works. I would assume the details are in the apocalypse book? I currently only have access to the FW apocalypse books so I should probably try and get a hold of the GW one.

 NL_Cirrus wrote:

Though SHW aren't allowed in this game so no titans, and I don't think we are allowed to bring fortifications of our own, also I don't play space marines so I can't use their stuff.

What the gak? What kind of apoc game is this, no SHW's? That means no titans OR knights. Are GC's allowed? And no fortifications allowed to be brought on your own? Sounds like an awful lot of list building rules for a game format that's supposed to encourage using your biggest stuff.

 NL_Cirrus wrote:
imperial primaris redoubt, never heard of that last one before

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/Realm-of-Battle-Imperial-Primus-Redoubt


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 chrispy1991 wrote:

 NL_Cirrus wrote:

Though SHW aren't allowed in this game so no titans, and I don't think we are allowed to bring fortifications of our own, also I don't play space marines so I can't use their stuff.

What the gak? What kind of apoc game is this, no SHW's? That means no titans OR knights. Are GC's allowed? And no fortifications allowed to be brought on your own? Sounds like an awful lot of list building rules for a game format that's supposed to encourage using your biggest stuff.

Seconded!

Do you know Xenos will be there?

Firepower > Range in my opinion. Unless you're playing on a massive table (no narrower than 6ft at any point) range isn't a huge issue because there's so much crap running around there's always going to be a target. I've brought plenty of Demolisher tanks to Apocalypse games, and by the end of turn one there was a lot of work for them to do. For me, I believe it's better to hit harder up close than tickle the other side at long range.

 NL_Cirrus wrote:
I will still probably have to choose between LRBT and Demolishers so I was hoping to get some opinions on specifically LRBT vs Demolisher.

Neither. The Demolishers won't be in range to shoot anything, the LRBTs won't be able to damage anything. If you can't proxy them as Vanquishers just leave the models at home, in a game where the biggest obstacle to having fun is getting turns finished in a reasonable amount of time you shouldn't be bringing units that have no purpose besides wasting time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

IandI wrote:
I've brought plenty of Demolisher tanks to Apocalypse games, and by the end of turn one there was a lot of work for them to do.

The problem is that you're lucky if your Apocalypse game make it to two full turns. If you aren't getting into range until the second turn then you're spending at least have the game with useless paperweights and there's a non-trivial chance that the game ends before those units fire a single shot.

chrispy1991 wrote:

 NL_Cirrus wrote:

Though SHW aren't allowed in this game so no titans, and I don't think we are allowed to bring fortifications of our own, also I don't play space marines so I can't use their stuff.

What the gak? What kind of apoc game is this, no SHW's? That means no titans OR knights. Are GC's allowed? And no fortifications allowed to be brought on your own? Sounds like an awful lot of list building rules for a game format that's supposed to encourage using your biggest stuff.

I don't know for sure that you can't bring fortifications, I don't have any so I didn't ask, I am just assuming because it is a themed game based around tanks and mechanized infantry. Which is why, I presume, there is the no SHW rule so that the game doesn't get over run with knights and titans. As far as I am aware it is a yearly thing they do, but this is the first time I will join in, so last year they may have permitted titans, I don't know. As far as I know GMC are allowed but I can't say as to wraithkights and stormsurges specifically, once again I didn't ask because I don't have any.

beast_gts wrote:

 NL_Cirrus wrote:
imperial primaris redoubt, never heard of that last one before

https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-GB/Realm-of-Battle-Imperial-Primus-Redoubt

Oh OK, thank you I didn't know that was a thing.

beast_gts wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

 chrispy1991 wrote:

 NL_Cirrus wrote:

Though SHW aren't allowed in this game so no titans, and I don't think we are allowed to bring fortifications of our own, also I don't play space marines so I can't use their stuff.

What the gak? What kind of apoc game is this, no SHW's? That means no titans OR knights. Are GC's allowed? And no fortifications allowed to be brought on your own? Sounds like an awful lot of list building rules for a game format that's supposed to encourage using your biggest stuff.

Seconded!

Do you know Xenos will be there?

From what I have heard there will be two chaos players with one tau player, I don't know more then that.

Peregrine wrote:

 NL_Cirrus wrote:
I will still probably have to choose between LRBT and Demolishers so I was hoping to get some opinions on specifically LRBT vs Demolisher.

Neither. The Demolishers won't be in range to shoot anything, the LRBTs won't be able to damage anything. If you can't proxy them as Vanquishers just leave the models at home, in a game where the biggest obstacle to having fun is getting turns finished in a reasonable amount of time you shouldn't be bringing units that have no purpose besides wasting time.

Well, my only other options are mech vets, or eradicators, and both of those would be worse so I MUST bring one or the other if I am to make a 4000point army , and they both serve equally well as mobile cover so it really just comes down to which gun would do better.

@landl Thanks for the input, I will probably go with the demolishers as most people seem to be saying that firepower is better, and LRBT won't do much anyway.

The battlecannons wont kill tanks, but the will kill marines, pathfinders, etc.

the demolishers will be better specifically against deep strike threats - you know your opponents better than us - how likely are you to see terminators and helbrutes deep striking in?

This will be the first time I will have played against the chaos players, I have however played against the tau player a lot and he will probably have a lot of deep strikers. Probably suits so a battle tank will be effective unless they are led by an iridium armour commander. Though you have a good point that LRBT will be useless against deep striking terminators or obliterators, it is something to consider.

 NL_Cirrus wrote:
I MUST bring one or the other if I am to make a 4000point army

Then don't bring a 4,000 point army if you can't proxy those models as something useful. The limiting factor in Apocalypse is the time required to move models, roll dice, etc, not how many points you have. If your models aren't contributing anything then they shouldn't be on the table.

This will be the first time I will have played against the chaos players, I have however played against the tau player a lot and he will probably have a lot of deep strikers. Probably suits so a battle tank will be effective unless they are led by an iridium armour commander. Though you have a good point that LRBT will be useless against deep striking terminators or obliterators, it is something to consider.

None of those things are legal because the infantry units aren't starting in transports. Crisis suits can't be taken at all, and the terminators/obliterators/etc will have to start the game in Land Raiders where they can't do anything useful.

Why not both? Take Basilisks/Manticores. Then you have full table length range and S9/10 Ordnance Barrage (ie always hits side armour) to throw around.

 Peregrine wrote:

 NL_Cirrus wrote:
I MUST bring one or the other if I am to make a 4000point army

Then don't bring a 4,000 point army if you can't proxy those models as something useful. The limiting factor in Apocalypse is the time required to move models, roll dice, etc, not how many points you have. If your models aren't contributing anything then they shouldn't be on the table.

It is a 4000 points per player game, so if I don't bring 4000 point I don't play. And it's not like they'll be doing nothing even if they don't kill anything. With the less useful tanks in the front the useful tank behind them will get a cover save, in addition they can provide board control (kind of anyway) if they don't get killed and if they do get killed then there is something more valuable that didn't get shot at instead.

 Peregrine wrote:

This will be the first time I will have played against the chaos players, I have however played against the tau player a lot and he will probably have a lot of deep strikers. Probably suits so a battle tank will be effective unless they are led by an iridium armour commander. Though you have a good point that LRBT will be useless against deep striking terminators or obliterators, it is something to consider.

None of those things are legal because the infantry units aren't starting in transports. Crisis suits can't be taken at all, and the terminators/obliterators/etc will have to start the game in Land Raiders where they can't do anything useful.

I know the tau player got a pass on his crisis suits with a restriction on how much of his army can be suits. But I had definitely forgotten about that rule when I brought up obliterators so your right on that one. Though dreadclaws are a possibility.

@GoonBandito I had considered the artillery as well and I might just use them, unfortunately I don't have enough artillery to fill out my list so regardless of if I take them or not I will still need to bring a number of Russes, so the choice between LRBT and Demolisher is still relevant even if I go that route.