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Void shields question.

The rules for void shields say that all hits are allocated to the void shields first, then any further hits go to the shielded target.

The way I'm reading it is that say I get shot with 4 lascannons on my plasma obliterator. 4 hits, all are allocated to the void shield. My opponent starts rolling to pen (and technically rolls all dice at once, even if they roll damage one at a time), getting 2 penetrating hits.

The void shield goes down because it was penetrated, saving the building, but the "extra" penetrating hit is not reallocated to the building, because you have to allocate HITS to it, not damage already done.

Likewise, if the same building was shot with 2 lascannons each from 2 different units, the first unit would drop the shield, and the second unit could do damage to the building.

I'm not in the wrong here, am I?

Not sure about the RAW on this, but HIWPI is that you roll damage against the Void Shields one (per Void Shield) at a time, and once they're all dead, it moves on to the original target.

^What JNA said. I'd have to pore over the RAW to get a precise answer, but that's how it should be played.

There's some crossover with shooting at vehicle squadrons here, since you're resolving against 1-3 1 hp armour 12 'objects' which are united in one unit choice.

BRB pg 79 col 1 para 5 declares you resolve each 'wound' one at a time against the closest target for shooting at a squadron. Extending it to the void shield, that would effectively put a squadron of 3 in front of your original target before you can resolve against them. In the case of a building or vehicle you could extend it to being part of the squadron, just right at the back.

Sound practice, and the way I play it is roll as many pens as void shields are active until they're gone (roll 3, get 1 down, roll 2, get one down, roll one on its own until its down), then roll the rest of a unit's damage output together (except on the frequent occasions when I have sentinel squadrons in a void shield )

That however is as open to interpretation as anything else, but it does appear to be the consensus at the moment.

You cannot apply the Vehicle squadron rules here, despite it being a good idea. We are not told to do this.

The real trick is the wording that hits are reallocated to 'the' shield, not 'shields'. So does that mean that if you get 2 hits, you roll one at a time and if the first hit Pens or Glances, the second hit goes to the target? Regardless of the remaining shields?
I think the generally everyone plays it that you roll your hits against the shields 1 at a time until all shields are down, even though a case could be made that addition damage is lost (since only hits are reallocated, not damage)

At the end of the day it's only 100pts and can regenerate shields, so even if you rule in favor of the attacker, it's still worth it.

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 Galef wrote:
You cannot apply the Vehicle squadron rules here, despite it being a good idea. We are not told to do this.

Is this somewhere in the FAQ? I've not encountered it yet :|

 malamis wrote:

 Galef wrote:
You cannot apply the Vehicle squadron rules here, despite it being a good idea. We are not told to do this.

Is this somewhere in the FAQ? I've not encountered it yet :|

You have to show where in the rules it says to apply the Vehicle squadron rules, otherwise you don't get to. It's not a case of needing the FAQ to say it doesn't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:

The real trick is the wording that hits are reallocated to 'the' shield, not 'shields'. So does that mean that if you get 2 hits, you roll one at a time and if the first hit Pens or Glances, the second hit goes to the target? Regardless of the remaining shields?
I think the generally everyone plays it that you roll your hits against the shields 1 at a time until all shields are down, even though a case could be made that addition damage is lost (since only hits are reallocated, not damage)
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It can be taken to mean "the shield that's in the way". If you have a hit that drops a shield and there's a second shield, then the next hit you deal with would go against the shield that in that shot's way - in that case it would be the second shield. Rinse and repeat until you run out of shields (whereupon you go back to working on what the shield was protecting) or run out of shots. If they had said shields plural, then you'd probably have a lot of people asking if one shot would take down both shields at once, so I imagine they used wording to avoid that question.

 doctortom wrote:

It can be taken to mean "the shield that's in the way". If you have a hit that drops a shield and there's a second shield, then the next hit you deal with would go against the shield that in that shot's way - in that case it would be the second shield. Rinse and repeat until you run out of shields (whereupon you go back to working on what the shield was protecting) or run out of shots. If they had said shields plural, then you'd probably have a lot of people asking if one shot would take down both shields at once, so I imagine they used wording to avoid that question.

I agree with this and is HIWPI.
I was just pointing out that odd wording that is clearly from 6th ed when you rolled all to-hits at the same time as a single shooting attack . Since 7th made it so that each weapon "type" is resolved before moving to the next, it could be argued that the wording now means that "further hits" is referring to hits from different weapons. Thereby negating any further damage from each shooting attack.

I actually had a good argument that this is how it worked and my local group agreed, but after pissing off too many opponents, I just said feth it and went with the "each pen/glance drops a shield" approach. I have since had more fun games and forgot the specifics of my original argument.

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Pretty sure per RAW in 7e, you fire by weapon groups per unit. If the first weapon group drops all of the shields, that group is done and the next group fires on the original target. A good example is having the Vulcan Megabolter on your Warhound fire first to strip the shields, then fire the Turbo-Laser.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Pretty sure per RAW in 7e, you fire by weapon groups per unit. If the first weapon group drops all of the shields, that group is done and the next group fires on the original target. A good example is having the Vulcan Megabolter on your Warhound fire first to strip the shields, then fire the Turbo-Laser.

SJ

Yes, I believe that is the RAI and 80-90% RAW, but there is room to argue that a "weapon group" can only down 1 shield at a time.
I'll have to read the text again when I get home, but I think it has something to do with what is considered a "shooting attack", since it says "a" shooting attack hits the shield instead of the target, THEN further hits can hit the target.
If the Vulcan Megabolter is consider a 'single' shooting attack (no matter the number or shots it has) it can only down 1 shield since it "hits" a shield instead of the target.
Further hits (from other shooting attacks) can hit the target, etc, etc.

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 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Pretty sure per RAW in 7e, you fire by weapon groups per unit. If the first weapon group drops all of the shields, that group is done and the next group fires on the original target. A good example is having the Vulcan Megabolter on your Warhound fire first to strip the shields, then fire the Turbo-Laser.

SJ

Depends on which set of Void Shields rules you are working from, I guess. For the Stronghold Assault version, the target doesn't change when you shoot at a unit protected by the Void Shield, so there is no justification for forcing a Weapon/Unit Change when the Shields are gone. In essence, it is more like an auto-pass Look Out Sir with the allocated unit being AV 12.

 Charistoph wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Pretty sure per RAW in 7e, you fire by weapon groups per unit. If the first weapon group drops all of the shields, that group is done and the next group fires on the original target. A good example is having the Vulcan Megabolter on your Warhound fire first to strip the shields, then fire the Turbo-Laser.

SJ

Depends on which set of Void Shields rules you are working from, I guess. For the Stronghold Assault version, the target doesn't change when you shoot at a unit protected by the Void Shield, so there is no justification for forcing a Weapon/Unit Change when the Shields are gone. In essence, it is more like an auto-pass Look Out Sir with the allocated unit being AV 12.

In your example, one glance or pen per shield is all you need, which is how void shields worked in 4e and 5e. 6e is where in changed to an entire unit's fire is absorbed by one shield, while 7e redefined it to weapon groups. In essence, not even GW knows how their rules work in this case. However, a plain reading of the current 7e rules informs us that you can strip shield by weapon group rather than by unit, and that shields are more like ablative/regenerating hull points that ignore the pen table in 7e than like entirely separate vehicles as they were in 4e-6e.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Pretty sure per RAW in 7e, you fire by weapon groups per unit. If the first weapon group drops all of the shields, that group is done and the next group fires on the original target. A good example is having the Vulcan Megabolter on your Warhound fire first to strip the shields, then fire the Turbo-Laser.

SJ

Depends on which set of Void Shields rules you are working from, I guess. For the Stronghold Assault version, the target doesn't change when you shoot at a unit protected by the Void Shield, so there is no justification for forcing a Weapon/Unit Change when the Shields are gone. In essence, it is more like an auto-pass Look Out Sir with the allocated unit being AV 12.

In your example, one glance or pen per shield is all you need, which is how void shields worked in 4e and 5e. 6e is where in changed to an entire unit's fire is absorbed by one shield, while 7e redefined it to weapon groups. In essence, not even GW knows how their rules work in this case. However, a plain reading of the current 7e rules informs us that you can strip shield by weapon group rather than by unit, and that shields are more like ablative/regenerating hull points that ignore the pen table in 7e than like entirely separate vehicles as they were in 4e-6e.

SJ

I did not really give an example, I was simplifying it in context. Stronghold Assault came out mid-6e, not 7e. The Shooting Sequence in 7e really did not change this relationship with the Stronghold Void Shields being a LOS by Vehicle concept. The Void Shield intercepts until it takes a Glancing or Penetrating Hit, all subsequent hits then go to the original target. Hits without a "glancing" or "penetrating" adjective in both 6e and 7e are the results of successful To-Hit rolls and those hits are then processed in to To-Wound Rolls or Armour Penetration Rolls (except for things like Markerlights). The original target of the shooting the Void Shield intercepted is still there after the Void Shield is gone, so they are not just dropped when the Void Shield dies any more than when the model having Look Out Sir Wounds Allocated to him dies.

Could you define what you mean by 7e Void Shields, or at least which document you are referencing, it would provide greater clarity for your position.

Apocalypse came out in 4e. Stronghold Assault came out in 6e. 7e updated both.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Apocalypse came out in 4e. Stronghold Assault came out in 6e. 7e updated both.

SJ

I can't find the Void Shields (projected or otherwise) in the 7e Rulebook, where is it? From what I understood, we were supposed to use Stronghold Assault for 7e Building rules. Do you have another book you are referencing?

I think he's referring to the simultaneity of firing in the various editions, rather than the void shield rules themselves (which I understand have not been updated since Stronghold Assault for our purposes in this thread, i.e. projected void shields).

 Mr. Shine wrote:
I think he's referring to the simultaneity of firing in the various editions, rather than the void shield rules themselves (which I understand have not been updated since Stronghold Assault for our purposes in this thread, i.e. projected void shields).

Correct. Void Shield in and of themselves had not changed much since they were originally introduced, an AV12 that intercepts attacks until it is glanced or penetrated. What has changed is how attacks interact with it due the way shooting has changed over the last 4 editions of the game.

SJ

In my local group we just think of Void Shields as ablative wounds.
1. Roll to hit Target.
2. Roll to pen shield.
3. IF shield is glance/penned, apply left over hits to target.

When it comes to Blasts and Templates, the Void Shield will absorb a WHOLE Blast or Template regardless of number of hits. If multiple Blasts follow steps 1-3. If multiple Templates follow step 2-3.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Mr. Shine wrote:
I think he's referring to the simultaneity of firing in the various editions, rather than the void shield rules themselves (which I understand have not been updated since Stronghold Assault for our purposes in this thread, i.e. projected void shields).

Correct. Void Shield in and of themselves had not changed much since they were originally introduced, an AV12 that intercepts attacks until it is glanced or penetrated. What has changed is how attacks interact with it due the way shooting has changed over the last 4 editions of the game.

SJ

You didn't specify that you were only talking about just the Shooting Sequence, and when I kept referencing the Void Shield rules, and asked about which version you were using, you said they changed in 7th Edition.

Even in 6th Edition, the Attacker would decide which Weapons get processed first. The timing of the Attacks did not matter when it came to allocating the hits any more than when it matters when you are doing Look Out Sir. If the person who dies from Look Out Sir goes, the remaining hits don't just go away, they continue to be processed, just as the Void Shield rules state. 7e changed absolutely none of this but the timing of it. You still target the same unit. The hits still need to get processed until you cannot hit the unit any more. A unit of Fire Dragons Meltaing a Lemon Russ Squadron under a single Void Shield will get a chance to pop the Shield, and if it takes 2 out of 4 hits to pop the Shield, then the other 2 will be processed against those Leman Russ.

The op is implying that as wespons are grouped together then four lascanon hits have to be alocated to the void sheild so by his logic it would go

Roll to hit void shield owner
Hits alocated to void shield
Roll to pen
3 pens go to wound pool
Apply wounds to unit starting with void shield and spilling over to void shield owner .

This would mean that units under somebody else void sheild wouldnt beable to have wounds alcated to them from the void shields wound pool

The main question i see is . Is the void shield considered part of a unit with the void shield owner . Or is it like a transport where you first have to pop the transport and effectivly lose any over kill before you can target the models inside.

I have been playing it that you roll one at a time to pop the shield then roll to pen the owner which i am now starting to think mite not be raw

The "issue" is the following:

"Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield."

This has the effect of substituting the target unit with the projected void shield in terms of what the shooting attack hits, while the projected void shield is active.

Those hits don't hit the target unit at all if the projected void shield is active, so they're unable to be resolved against the target unit in any way.

 Mr. Shine wrote:
The "issue" is the following:

"Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield."

This has the effect of substituting the target unit with the projected void shield in terms of what the shooting attack hits, while the projected void shield is active.

Those hits don't hit the target unit at all if the projected void shield is active, so they're unable to be resolved against the target unit in any way.

BINGO!

We have to clarify what counts as a "shooting attack".
Example: 5 Devastators w/ 3 Lascannons & 2 MLs, does the Lascannon "weapon group" count as a shooting attack?
Or does each individual Lascannon counts as its own shooting attack?

In 6th ed, an unit's shooting attack consisted of every weapon able to fire, therefore VSGs were brutal in 6th since they could absorb an whole unit's firepower no matter how many different weapons they had.
In 7th ed, we divide a unit's shooting into 'weapon groups' but I don't believe it states these as separate shooting attacks, but we all assume that they are.
That means that those 5 Devs would resolve the Lascannons, only able to down 1 shield as they are collectively 1 shooting attack, then the MLs could down another shield since they are another shooting attack.

The first part of the VSG says that "the shooting attack" hits the projected shield, which means the entire shooting attack, including all "hits" have been allocated and cannot be allocated back.
A later part of the rules says that "further hits" are allocated to the target as normal. This has to mean hits from another shooting attack, since we have already allocated all the hits from the first "shooting attack" onto the shield.

It also never says that if you have multiple shields that further hits will be reallocated to another shield if one shields is collapsed, therefore "a shooting attack" can only ever collapse 1 shield

That's just my $0.02
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 Mr. Shine wrote:
The "issue" is the following:

"Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield."

This has the effect of substituting the target unit with the projected void shield in terms of what the shooting attack hits, while the projected void shield is active.

Those hits don't hit the target unit at all if the projected void shield is active, so they're unable to be resolved against the target unit in any way.

You missed part of the process:
"If all the projected void shields have collapsed, further hits strike the original target instead."

With all this, the target never changes. The hits which were not absorbed by or collapse the Void Shield are now free and clear to continue against what they were targeted against, just as Wounds Allocated by Look Out Sir don't disappear when the model who the Wounds were Reallocated to disappear.

 Charistoph wrote:

"If all the projected void shields have collapsed, further hits strike the original target instead."

With all this, the target never changes. The hits which were not absorbed by or collapse the Void Shield are now free and clear to continue against what they were targeted against, just as Wounds Allocated by Look Out Sir don't disappear when the model who the Wounds were Reallocated to disappear.

Which is HIWPI, despite what I put in my previous post. It just seems to be the easier way to play it, especially against someone who has not read the rules for the VSG. After all, it's a rather cheap option to basically ignore some enemy shooting and the shields can come back up.

The VSG rules are only confusing because they use "shooting attacks" and "hits" interchangeably, even though those can be 2 different things.
You could actually say that "further hits" hit the intended target ONLY after all the shields are down, but further hits do NOT hit the second or third shield. So only when the last shield is being hit, would you allocate further hits to the target, Yet if you have 2+ shields still active, excess hits are lost once each shield is collapsed as we are not given permission to allocate further hits to another shield.
While I believe this to be the RAW, it is kinda ridiculous and I would rather not waste precious game time explaining that to an opponent.

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 Galef wrote:

 Charistoph wrote:

"If all the projected void shields have collapsed, further hits strike the original target instead."

With all this, the target never changes. The hits which were not absorbed by or collapse the Void Shield are now free and clear to continue against what they were targeted against, just as Wounds Allocated by Look Out Sir don't disappear when the model who the Wounds were Reallocated to disappear.

Which is HIWPI, despite what I put in my previous post. It just seems to be the easier way to play it, especially against someone who has not read the rules for the VSG. After all, it's a rather cheap option to basically ignore some enemy shooting and the shields can come back up.

The VSG rules are only confusing because they use "shooting attacks" and "hits" interchangeably, even though those can be 2 different things.
You could actually say that "further hits" hit the intended target ONLY after all the shields are down, but further hits do NOT hit the second or third shield. So only when the last shield is being hit, would you allocate further hits to the target, Yet if you have 2+ shields still active, excess hits are lost once each shield is collapsed as we are not given permission to allocate further hits to another shield.
While I believe this to be the RAW, it is kinda ridiculous and I would rather not waste precious game time explaining that to an opponent.

No, allocating the hits to a unit while still covered by a Shield is not "after all the shields have collapsed". That would be "after one shield has collapsed". If you have three Shields covering a unit and it was successfully hit by ten high strength guns which took four Penetrations to collapse, we would be seeing six hits continue on to the unit that was shielded.

I think its about weapons being grouped together and if they all hit the first void shield at the same time . Im not with my books so cant check if your ment to roll armour pens together.
Then the next set of hits hit the next void shield or target .

This sentance dosnt specifiy if its applying to a group of hits or to indvidual hits .
If all the projected void shields have collapsed, further hits strike the original target instead

Its does also imply that you have to roll all of the pens sepratly which if it isnt the normal way to do it . Wouldnt you need an advanced rule to overide the norm ie

roll for armour pentrations indviduly and once all void shields have collapsed, further hits strike the original target instead

This is only based on if theres a rule for rolling armour pens togther which i dont know if there is as im not with my books

ian wrote:
I think its about weapons being grouped together and if they all hit the first void shield at the same time . Im not with my books so cant check if your ment to roll armour pens together.
Then the next set of hits hit the next void shield or target .

This sentance dosnt specifiy if its applying to a group of hits or to indvidual hits .
If all the projected void shields have collapsed, further hits strike the original target instead

Its does also imply that you have to roll all of the pens sepratly which if it isnt the normal way to do it . Wouldnt you need an advanced rule to overide the norm ie

roll for armour pentrations indviduly and once all void shields have collapsed, further hits strike the original target instead

This is only based on if theres a rule for rolling armour pens togther which i dont know if there is as im not with my books

You are if we are not dealing with multiple model Vehicle situations. When a Vehicle is being used in a multi-model unit, you process it as Squadrons which are each hit is processed from Armour Penetration through Vehicle Damage Results before moving on to the next to the next hit.

Is a shooting attack considered the "weapon group" as a whole, or is each "hit" a separate shooting attack?

If it is weapon group, then each weapon group hits a single shield rather than the target. Roll all for armour penetration, losing any further damage, as hits have been allocated prior to damage rolls
If it is each individual "hit" than you roll one at a time as normal, so a unit with 4 shots could indeed down all 3 shields one at a time, then allocate 1 hit onto the target.

RAW I consider a shooting attack as weapon group, however I play it as each individual hit, since that is easier and less "TFG"

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I do also think that look out sirs are for wounds not hits which is diffrent as once a wound has been created it has to be allocated but its not the same with hits as they dont get allocated as far as i understand they all count as hitting the target and arnt allocated to seprate models


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galef wrote:
Is a shooting attack considered the "weapon group" as a whole, or is each "hit" a separate shooting attack?

If it is weapon group, then each weapon group hits a single shield rather than the target. Roll all for armour penetration, losing any further damage, as hits have been allocated prior to damage rolls
If it is each individual "hit" than you roll one at a time as normal, so a unit with 4 shots could indeed down all 3 shields one at a time, then allocate 1 hit onto the target.

RAW I consider a shooting attack as weapon group, however I play it as each individual hit, since that is easier and less "TFG"

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I agree with this

Galef wrote:Is a shooting attack considered the "weapon group" as a whole, or is each "hit" a separate shooting attack?

If it is weapon group, then each weapon group hits a single shield rather than the target. Roll all for armour penetration, losing any further damage, as hits have been allocated prior to damage rolls
If it is each individual "hit" than you roll one at a time as normal, so a unit with 4 shots could indeed down all 3 shields one at a time, then allocate 1 hit onto the target.

RAW I consider a shooting attack as weapon group, however I play it as each individual hit, since that is easier and less "TFG"

From Select A Weapon, 1st paragraph, second sentence:

When firing with a unit, completely resolve all attacks from the same weapons at the same time before moving onto any differently named weapons (see Select Another Weapon, below).

GW's way of stating things can be convoluted, some times.

ian wrote:I do also think that look out sirs are for wounds not hits which is diffrent as once a wound has been created it has to be allocated but its not the same with hits as they dont get allocated as far as i understand they all count as hitting the target and arnt allocated to seprate models

Look Out Sirs are for Wounds, not Hits, and Void Shields are not literally Look Out Sirs by lack of such definition. However, the Void Shield process is much the same in that it places itself in between the shooter and the target, but it specifies that it intercedes place when shooting attacks hit the target, as opposed to LOS stating it takes place when Allocating Wounds.

The problem then becomes we have a Vehicle profile intercepting a shot. The target could be non-Vehicle, it could be a Vehicle. The only method for dealing with such a situation is by the Vehicle Squadron rules (a multi-model unit of Vehicles) as the Shield is not a model of the target unit, but is still taking a hit. When shooting at Vehicle Squadrons:

Shooting at Squadrons
When a squadron of vehicles is shot at, roll To Hit as normal. Once you have determined the number of hits, these hits must be resolved, one at a time, against the model in the squadron closest to the firing unit – exactly like you would resolve Wounds on a normal unit. Once the nearest model in the squadron is destroyed (i.e. is Wrecked or Explodes!), the next hit is allocated against the new nearest model, and so on.

So Hits get allocated one at a time through resolution.