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Galef wrote:Is a shooting attack considered the "weapon group" as a whole, or is each "hit" a separate shooting attack?
If it is weapon group, then each weapon group hits a single shield rather than the target. Roll all for armour penetration, losing any further damage, as hits have been allocated prior to damage rolls If it is each individual "hit" than you roll one at a time as normal, so a unit with 4 shots could indeed down all 3 shields one at a time, then allocate 1 hit onto the target.
RAW I consider a shooting attack as weapon group, however I play it as each individual hit, since that is easier and less "TFG"
From Select A Weapon, 1st paragraph, second sentence:
When firing with a unit, completely resolve all attacks from the same weapons at the same time before moving onto any differently named weapons (see Select Another Weapon, below).
GW's way of stating things can be convoluted, some times.
ian wrote:I do also think that look out sirs are for wounds not hits which is diffrent as once a wound has been created it has to be allocated but its not the same with hits as they dont get allocated as far as i understand they all count as hitting the target and arnt allocated to seprate models
Look Out Sirs are for Wounds, not Hits, and Void Shields are not literally Look Out Sirs by lack of such definition. However, the Void Shield process is much the same in that it places itself in between the shooter and the target, but it specifies that it intercedes place when shooting attacks hit the target, as opposed to LOS stating it takes place when Allocating Wounds.
The problem then becomes we have a Vehicle profile intercepting a shot. The target could be non-Vehicle, it could be a Vehicle. The only method for dealing with such a situation is by the Vehicle Squadron rules (a multi-model unit of Vehicles) as the Shield is not a model of the target unit, but is still taking a hit. When shooting at Vehicle Squadrons:
Shooting at Squadrons When a squadron of vehicles is shot at, roll To Hit as normal. Once you have determined the number of hits, these hits must be resolved, one at a time, against the model in the squadron closest to the firing unit – exactly like you would resolve Wounds on a normal unit. Once the nearest model in the squadron is destroyed (i.e. is Wrecked or Explodes!), the next hit is allocated against the new nearest model, and so on.
So Hits get allocated one at a time through resolution
.
I agree that using LOS! & the vehicle squadron rules as precedent is an intuitive method for resolving any issues, however my point will always remain on the side of "VSG is neither LOS, nor a Vehicle squadron so those rules cannot apply" I use the "1 shot hits 1 shield" method as you suggest, but only because it is more important for me to use my kick-@$$ Eldar converted model than to get a disproportionate in-game advantage. That doesn't mean I agree that the RAW are that way.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/21 20:29:21
Galef wrote: I agree that using LOS! & the vehicle squadron rules as precedent is an intuitive method for resolving any issues, however my point will always remain on the side of "VSG is neither LOS, nor a Vehicle squadron so those rules cannot apply"
I use the "1 shot hits 1 shield" method as you suggest, but only because it is more important for me to use my kick-@$$ Eldar converted model than to get a disproportionate in-game advantage.
That doesn't mean I agree that the RAW are that way.
It's not just precedent, look at how the terms are used between the three sets of rules. The format is almost identical, if some of the actual nouns (and hence placement of such) is being used.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
Im playing devils advocate here but dosnt the wording resolved at the same time mean that they have to be resovled together and not one at a time .
Could the void shield be treated like a transport vehicle where the titan is inside the the void shield , so just like when you pop a rhino the first vollys fire dosnt spill over to the troops . I think that could also be a fair way to resovle it with the lack of a definative rule for the situtation
Automatically Appended Next Post: I havnt looked as that always the way we have played transports but is there an actual rule that states we cannot allocate wounds to the troops inside or is it just because there are a seprate unit
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/22 00:01:53
Charistoph wrote: You missed part of the process:
"If all the projected void shields have collapsed, further hits strike the original target instead."
With all this, the target never changes. The hits which were not absorbed by or collapse the Void Shield are now free and clear to continue against what they were targeted against, just as Wounds Allocated by Look Out Sir don't disappear when the model who the Wounds were Reallocated to disappear.
Sure, but where are we allocating hits one at a time in a given shooting attack to allow for the shield to be considered not active partway through the resolution of the shooting attack?
You make reference to resolving hits one at a time as for vehicle squadrons, but I don't see that we're told the hits instead target the projected void shields plural.
Mr. Shine wrote: Sure, but where are we allocating hits one at a time in a given shooting attack to allow for the shield to be considered not active partway through the resolution of the shooting attack?
You make reference to resolving hits one at a time as for vehicle squadrons, but I don't see that we're told the hits instead target the projected void shields plural.
What is a situation of a multiple model unit with Vehicles? When you process an Attack with a unit protected by a Void Shield that is what you are getting whether the unit itself is Vehicle or not.
And I did NOT say the hits TARGET the Void Shields, I said the Void Shields interpose themselves much like a Vehicle doing a Look Out Sir. The "target" starts with the unit in the Void Shield area and remains that unit same unit no matter what happens to the Void Shields.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
2016/11/22 03:46:59
Subject: Re:Void shields: overflow? Or absorption?
According to the shooring rules "All of the models in the unit that are firing the selected weapon shoot at the same time"
RAW wise it's seems all hit the shield at once and are resolved against it. while further weapons are unnafected.
Now the tricky part, a 2nd projected shield it's considered part of same shield or another different shield? ( considering a single void shield upgraded to 2-3 shields)
So in the previous example (Dev saqud with 4 las cannons) do we solve all 4 like hitting a 3 hull vehicle? like hiting a squad of 3 vehicles with 1 Hull each one, ora ccording to pure RAW we must shoot at least 3 different groups of weapons to take all 3 down?
2016/11/22 03:51:56
Subject: Re:Void shields: overflow? Or absorption?
Lord Perversor wrote: According to the shooring rules "All of the models in the unit that are firing the selected weapon shoot at the same time"
RAW wise it's seems all hit the shield at once and are resolved against it. while further weapons are unnafected.
Now the tricky part, a 2nd projected shield it's considered part of same shield or another different shield? ( considering a single void shield upgraded to 2-3 shields)
So in the previous example (Dev saqud with 4 las cannons) do we solve all 4 like hitting a 3 hull vehicle? like hiting a squad of 3 vehicles with 1 Hull each one, ora ccording to pure RAW we must shoot at least 3 different groups of weapons to take all 3 down?
I disagree on your interpretation of RAW, and I have pointed out why. Nothing in the Void Shield Rules tell you to stop allocating hits, but instead tell you to allocate "further hits" beyond the ones that cause the Glancing/Penetration to the protected unit. If there are more Shields, then they stand in the way, too, just as if you had more models to Look Out Sir to.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
2016/11/22 04:01:13
Subject: Re:Void shields: overflow? Or absorption?
Lord Perversor wrote: According to the shooring rules "All of the models in the unit that are firing the selected weapon shoot at the same time"
RAW wise it's seems all hit the shield at once and are resolved against it. while further weapons are unnafected.
Now the tricky part, a 2nd projected shield it's considered part of same shield or another different shield? ( considering a single void shield upgraded to 2-3 shields)
So in the previous example (Dev saqud with 4 las cannons) do we solve all 4 like hitting a 3 hull vehicle? like hiting a squad of 3 vehicles with 1 Hull each one, ora ccording to pure RAW we must shoot at least 3 different groups of weapons to take all 3 down?
I disagree on your interpretation of RAW, and I have pointed out why. Nothing in the Void Shield Rules tell you to stop allocating hits, but instead tell you to allocate "further hits" beyond the ones that cause the Glancing/Penetration to the protected unit. If there are more Shields, then they stand in the way, too, just as if you had more models to Look Out Sir to.
HIWPI it's pretty much as you do Charistoph, but i'm more interested in the part about several layers of void shields from the same generator.
Charistoph wrote: What is a situation of a multiple model unit with Vehicles? When you process an Attack with a unit protected by a Void Shield that is what you are getting whether the unit itself is Vehicle or not.
On what basis are you treating the projected void shield as multiple vehicles?
And I did NOT say the hits TARGET the Void Shields, I said the Void Shields interpose themselves much like a Vehicle doing a Look Out Sir. The "target" starts with the unit in the Void Shield area and remains that unit same unit no matter what happens to the Void Shields.
Semantics; apologies if I was unclear and meant to say, "but I don't see that we're told the hits instead hit the projected void shields plural."
2016/11/22 09:00:29
Subject: Re:Void shields: overflow? Or absorption?
Lord Perversor wrote: According to the shooring rules "All of the models in the unit that are firing the selected weapon shoot at the same time"
RAW wise it's seems all hit the shield at once and are resolved against it. while further weapons are unnafected.
Now the tricky part, a 2nd projected shield it's considered part of same shield or another different shield? ( considering a single void shield upgraded to 2-3 shields)
So in the previous example (Dev saqud with 4 las cannons) do we solve all 4 like hitting a 3 hull vehicle? like hiting a squad of 3 vehicles with 1 Hull each one, ora ccording to pure RAW we must shoot at least 3 different groups of weapons to take all 3 down?
I disagree on your interpretation of RAW, and I have pointed out why. Nothing in the Void Shield Rules tell you to stop allocating hits, but instead tell you to allocate "further hits" beyond the ones that cause the Glancing/Penetration to the protected unit. If there are more Shields, then they stand in the way, too, just as if you had more models to Look Out Sir to.
Hits are not allocated they hit the target all at the same time.
i think a void shield is best described as a wargear option.
They are not a unit and they are not wounds for los
Horus Heresy Book, Tempest
a legio titanicus reaver battle titan has four void shields . each hit (which can be considered a grouping of the same weapon ) scored against a reaver titan will instead hit a void shield (there is no rule to say a void shield is considered a group or unit so it will affect a single shield).......................
after all void shields have collapsed further hits strike the titan instead.
it is also important to note that they use the words shield and shields
in order to roll for hits individually there needs to be a rule allowing this to happen and "each hit " is not specific enough to be considered a rule
Automatically Appended Next Post: This is just my understanding of the situation and is intended to be presented as such
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2016/11/22 09:23:14
2016/11/22 16:26:29
Subject: Re:Void shields: overflow? Or absorption?
Lord Perversor wrote:HIWPI it's pretty much as you do Charistoph, but i'm more interested in the part about several layers of void shields from the same generator.
Source of the Void Shields doesn't seem to matter, in terms of getting hits to the targeted unit. A Super-Heavy Walker with its own Void Shields in the protection of a Void Shield Projector would not be directly affected unit both the Projected and its own are down.
As for which would be hit first, I would think that the owning player would decide just like in Look Out Sir, but nothing specifically states either way.
Mr. Shine wrote:
Charistoph wrote: What is a situation of a multiple model unit with Vehicles? When you process an Attack with a unit protected by a Void Shield that is what you are getting whether the unit itself is Vehicle or not.
On what basis are you treating the projected void shield as multiple vehicles?
Read what I said again, "a multiple model unit with Vehicles". Is a Void Shield a Vehicle? Not specifically, but how is its damage taken care of? As a Vehicle just like shooting a Building.
Mr. Shine wrote:
And I did NOT say the hits TARGET the Void Shields, I said the Void Shields interpose themselves much like a Vehicle doing a Look Out Sir. The "target" starts with the unit in the Void Shield area and remains that unit same unit no matter what happens to the Void Shields.
Semantics; apologies if I was unclear and meant to say, "but I don't see that we're told the hits instead hit the projected void shields plural."
Semantics is the purpose of YMDC. It is the study of meaning, signs and what they mean, etc. And considering there are very specific uses of those terms, that can come in to very specific play, such as a when a non-Vehicle unit under Void Shield projection gets shot by a Skyhammer Annihilation Devastator Squad.
Now for the rest:
"If any Shooting Attack... hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield. If a unit is within 12" of more than one Void Shield Generator, and so within more than one Void Shield Zone when it is hit, randomly determine which of the buildings’ projected void shields is hit."
"If all the projected void shields have collapsed, further hits strike the original target instead."
So, the hits get allocated to the Shield. Shield goes down and the hits get reallocated back to target which is affected by another Shield, which then have the hits allocated to it. The hits being reallocated to the Shields are not noted as only happening once per Attack/Phase.
Note, that only works with the Projected version in Stronghold Assault. Other versions may handle it differently.
ian wrote:Hits are not allocated they hit the target all at the same time.
Not in the case of Vehicle Squadrons. What are Vehicle Squadrons? Multi-model units with a Vehicle.
ian wrote:i think a void shield is best described as a wargear option.
They are not a unit and they are not wounds for los
Nor did I say they were not Wargear (where applicable). Nor did I say that Void Shields are a unit. Nor did I say they are Wounds for Look Out Sir.
Void Shields interpose themselves and have hits reallocated to them much like how Look Out Sir allows a model to interpose themselves and have Wounds reallocated to them till a Penetrating or Glancing Hit occurs against them.
ian wrote:Horus Heresy Book, Tempest
a legio titanicus reaver battle titan has four void shields . each hit (which can be considered a grouping of the same weapon ) scored against a reaver titan will instead hit a void shield (there is no rule to say a void shield is considered a group or unit so it will affect a single shield).......................
after all void shields have collapsed further hits strike the titan instead.
A "hit" cannot be considered a grouping of the same weapon. A "hit" occurs for every successful To-Hit roll a Weapon (not Weapon group) makes.
ROLL TO HIT To determine if the firing model has hit its target, roll a D6 for each shot that is in range. Most models only get to fire one shot, however, some weapons are capable of firing more than once, as we’ll explain in more detail later. The dice roll needed To Hit will depend on how accurate the firers are, as shown by their Ballistic Skill (or BS). The chart below shows the minimum D6 roll needed to score a hit.
ROLL TO WOUND To determine whether a hit causes a telling amount of damage, compare the weapon’s Strength characteristic with the target’s Toughness characteristic using the To Wound chart below...
So, hits are very specific and addressed individually. Now, against lone Vehicles or non-Vehicle units, yes, there is nothing to separate how their regular hits are processed until Wounds are allocated. But when we deal with processing against units with multiple models and a Vehicle is involved, things go wonky.
ian wrote:it is also important to note that they use the words shield and shields
in order to roll for hits individually there needs to be a rule allowing this to happen and "each hit " is not specific enough to be considered a rule
You mean like for Vehicle Squadrons?
Shooting at Squadrons When a squadron of vehicles is shot at, roll To Hit as normal. Once you have determined the number of hits, these hits must be resolved, one at a time, against the model in the squadron closest to the firing unit – exactly like you would resolve Wounds on a normal unit. Once the nearest model in the squadron is destroyed (i.e. is Wrecked or Explodes!), the next hit is allocated against the new nearest model, and so on.
And note, everything in bold that I have quoted is bolded in the rulebook, I only underlined for emphasis.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
I am an advocate for choosing the path of less ambiguity, or if ambiguity exists, going with the path that provides the least benefit to me, and thus the least argument. In that vein, I always play as Charistoph has described.
However, my RAW interpretation has to do with the "further hits" part. Is it further hits from the same shooting attack? Or does it mean further hits from further shooting attacks in the same phase? After all, it says that any shooting attack hits the shield instead of the target, i.e. the entire shooting attack (weapon group). It isn't clear which it means and can be interpreted differently. The only "hint" we are given is the wording "original target" which would imply that further hits are coming from the same shooting attack, but it doesn't have to mean this at all.
So if a shooting attack hits the shield, you must collapse that shield before another shooting attack can hit the target. If there are multiple shields, it should take multiple shooting attacks before you can hit the target. Ergo a VSG with 3 shields can absorb at least 3 shooting attacks before a 4th shooting attack can hit the target. Now the question is what is a shooting attack? Is each Lascannon "hit" a shooting attack, or is the weapon group of Lascannon "hits" a single shooting attack.
If the shooting attack is each individual dice rolled, then there is no argument; 4 Lascannons can indeed down the shields and hit the original target. If, however, the Lascannon group is a single shooting attack, then they can only down a single shield, since hits are allocated to the shield and permission is not given to allocate to additional shields. Permission is only given to hit the original target if all shields have collapsed. This is not as intuitive as the Vehicle Squadron rules, nor LOS!, but we are not given permission to use those rules, so referencing then is only relevant if wanting to make a clear house rule. for VSGs
TL;DR There is the way that makes sense, then there is the way GW wrote it. They are not the same
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This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2016/11/22 18:00:49
To determine if the firing model has hit its target, roll a D6 for each shot that is in range. Most models only get to fire one shot, however, some weapons are capable of firing more than once, as we’ll explain in more detail later. The dice roll needed To Hit will depend on how accurate the firers are, as shown by their Ballistic Skill (or BS). The chart below shows the minimum D6 roll needed to score a hit.
ROLL TO WOUND
This is dealing with what you need to roll to hit the target
All of the models in the unit that are firing the selected weapon shoot at the same time
This is dealing with weapon types and how there are treated with once you have determined what BS you have to use and explains that there are treated as being fired at the same time meaning you resolve them at the same time.
Shooting at Squadrons
When a squadron of vehicles is shot at, roll To Hit as normal. Once you have determined the number of hits, these hits must be resolved, one at a time, against the model in the squadron closest to the firing unit – exactly like you would resolve Wounds on a normal unit. Once the nearest model in the squadron is destroyed (i.e. is Wrecked or Explodes!), the next hit is allocated against the new nearest model, and so on.
i would also like to point out how they have had to make an advanced rule to override the general rule that hits are resolved per grouping .
There is no such rule for void shield
Automatically Appended Next Post: just a quick note there is also a reference to weapons being fire at the same time in the new faq under ordenace
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/11/22 20:48:38
2016/11/22 21:36:21
Subject: Re:Void shields: overflow? Or absorption?
Charistoph wrote: Read what I said again, "a multiple model unit with Vehicles". Is a Void Shield a Vehicle? Not specifically, but how is its damage taken care of? As a Vehicle just like shooting a Building.
Those rules are for shooting at Vehicle Squadrons. This is resolving hits against a single "vehicle", the single projected void shield. I agree it may be a decent HIWPI but I can't see that it's supported in the RAW.
2016/11/23 00:08:31
Subject: Re:Void shields: overflow? Or absorption?
Charistoph wrote: Read what I said again, "a multiple model unit with Vehicles". Is a Void Shield a Vehicle? Not specifically, but how is its damage taken care of? As a Vehicle just like shooting a Building.
Those rules are for shooting at Vehicle Squadrons. This is resolving hits against a single "vehicle", the single projected void shield. I agree it may be a decent HIWPI but I can't see that it's supported in the RAW.
The target may or may not have been a Vehicle, and doesn't really matter. The Void Shield intervenes and now it is being processed as a multiple model unit with a Vehicle. You never actually target the Projected Void Shield, ever. The process is described very similarly to how Vehicle Squadrons work.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
2016/11/23 05:22:06
Subject: Re:Void shields: overflow? Or absorption?
Charistoph wrote: The target may or may not have been a Vehicle, and doesn't really matter. The Void Shield intervenes and now it is being processed as a multiple model unit with a Vehicle. You never actually target the Projected Void Shield, ever. The process is described very similarly to how Vehicle Squadrons work.
We have rules for allocating hits one at a time for damaging squadrons. A projected void shield is not a vehicle squadron.
'Damaging Squadrons' explicitly tells you to "allocate hits, one at a time". The void shield rules do not.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/23 05:22:44
2016/11/23 05:53:06
Subject: Re:Void shields: overflow? Or absorption?
Charistoph wrote: What is a multiple model unit with a Vehicle in it?
A projected void shield is not in the unit, and even if it were, that would not make it a vehicle squadron. Vehicle squadrons are explicitly units made up of vehicles operating together.
If you had a rule which allowed a non-vehicle model such as an Independent Character to join a vehicle unit, or a unit which were composed of both vehicle and non-vehicle models, that unit would still not be a vehicle squadron simply for that.
2016/11/23 06:04:20
Subject: Re:Void shields: overflow? Or absorption?
Mr. Shine wrote: A projected void shield is not in the unit, and even if it were, that would not make it a vehicle squadron. Vehicle squadrons are explicitly units made up of vehicles operating together.
If you had a rule which allowed a non-vehicle model such as an Independent Character to join a vehicle unit, or a unit which were composed of both vehicle and non-vehicle models, that unit would still not be a vehicle squadron simply for that.
The Void Shield is processed as if it was part of the unit, as nothing outside of the unit can technically be used to take the hits. The Target never changes once in the described process. Therefore, the Void Shield is processed as part of the unit.
So, answer the second question.
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
2016/11/23 06:08:46
Subject: Re:Void shields: overflow? Or absorption?
Charistoph wrote: The Void Shield is processed as if it was part of the unit, as nothing outside of the unit can technically be used to take the hits. The Target never changes once in the described process. Therefore, the Void Shield is processed as part of the unit.
So, answer the second question.
That does not make the unit a vehicle squadron, or force you to resolve the hits as if it were one.
Using the vehicle squadron rule is a propossed solution rather than raw.
A void sheild is not a model it has no profile other than to treat it as av 12 . Its refered to as the model having 4 void sheilds not a unit consisting of a titian and 4 void shields .
I would best discribe it as a wargear item .As the titan owns the void shield .There has to be a rule stating that they are considered to be a unit or that the void shield is considered to be a model it its own right.
Also by your reasoning that they are a squad how do you resovle blast hits. If like you say there a unit then you would have mulitple hits but the rules state that any hits on the titan instead hit a void shield. Meaning you have reasovled the hits against the single titan model then moved the hits to the void shield . So the squadron rules cannot come into effect as the void shield is processed after the hits have been rolled on the single model.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/23 09:45:33
redbeast001 wrote: In my local group we just think of Void Shields as ablative wounds.
1. Roll to hit Target.
2. Roll to pen shield.
3. IF shield is glance/penned, apply left over hits to target.
When it comes to Blasts and Templates, the Void Shield will absorb a WHOLE Blast or Template regardless of number of hits. If multiple Blasts follow steps 1-3. If multiple Templates follow step 2-3.
Why would you not play it this way?
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Im not sure ,i think it would most likely be a copy and paste
Automatically Appended Next Post: Thats how i have been playing it but it turns out that raw ,you never roll hits seperatly unless theres a rule telling you too like the squadren rules
Automatically Appended Next Post: And theres no rule to treat void shields as a unit but the norm seems to treat them as one
Automatically Appended Next Post: And the point about the blast is ,if its treated as models in a unit then they should all be hit by the blast
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/11/23 17:09:12
redbeast001 wrote: In my local group we just think of Void Shields as ablative wounds.
1. Roll to hit Target.
2. Roll to pen shield.
3. IF shield is glance/penned, apply left over hits to target.
When it comes to Blasts and Templates, the Void Shield will absorb a WHOLE Blast or Template regardless of number of hits. If multiple Blasts follow steps 1-3. If multiple Templates follow step 2-3.
Why would you not play it this way?
For the steps, no problem. The Blasts and Templates... That is a different story and a House Rule. But that's just because of how the Blasts operate and don't take into account how a Shielding system would work. This would be absorbing the attack, not the hit. And those are very different levels of interactions.
ian wrote:Thats how i have been playing it but it turns out that raw ,you never roll hits seperatly unless theres a rule telling you too like the squadren rules
It depends on how you classify "further hits". I am reading it as "further hits from this attack", and you are reading it as "further hits from later attacks".
In addition, no mention of "remaining hits are considered lost". Do we just stop because we cannot process more?
ian wrote:And theres no rule to treat void shields as a unit but the norm seems to treat them as one
And no one is telling anyone to treat it as a "unit", but as something that can be hit in the unit, and it has hits allocated to itself first, automatically. In this, we treat it as a model for the purposes of getting it taken care of, and that's it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/23 17:43:23
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
The further hits part is the problem . i would say that because its a creating an advanced rule like squadrons do " hits must be resovled one at a time " the void rules would need specific rules like this . however
the latest rules from the tempest is worded as
"after all void shields have collapsed further hits strike the titan instead"
further hits is only used in relation to after all shields have been destroyed . this is after the event of destroying the shields. so cant be used for working out hits on them. you could argue that on the last shield the hits spill over.
There isn't any wording saying that we treat it as a model but i understand the argument for it .
"void shields have an armour value of 12"
We are told that a void shield has av 12 and that is all we need to be able to work out what we need to roll .Next we are told a pen or glancing hit cause it to collapse .Using other rules isn't necessary and because it is not a rule directly referencing void shields it shouldn't be applied
also if its not being claimed as a unit why is it being suggested that the armour rolls spill over . Even the vehicle squadrons rules state they are treated like a unit . if they are not treated like a unit armour rolls do not spill over
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/11/23 19:44:40
Galef wrote:So does this matter anymore? Or are the rules in "Planetary Onsluaght" just a copy/paste job from Stronghold Assault?
Maybe, maybe not. I'm not getting the book any time soon and don't have an LGS to borrow a read from any more, which is why I have made sure I did define where I was coming from and asking for any different versions. I was aware of Forgeworld versions which may have different processes, at least.
ian wrote:The further hits part is the problem . i would say that because its a creating an advanced rule like squadrons do " hits must be resovled one at a time " the void rules would need specific rules like this . however
the latest rules from the tempest is worded as
"after all void shields have collapsed further hits strike the titan instead"
further hits is only used in relation to after all shields have been destroyed . this is after the event of destroying the shields. so cant be used for working out hits on them. you could argue that on the last shield the hits spill over.
There isn't any wording saying that we treat it as a model but i understand the argument for it .
"void shields have an armour value of 12"
We are told that a void shield has av 12 and that is all we need to be able to work out what we need to roll .Next we are told a pen or glancing hit cause it to collapse .Using other rules isn't necessary and because it is not a rule directly referencing void shields it shouldn't be applied
also if its not being claimed as a unit why is it being suggested that the armour rolls spill over . Even the vehicle squadrons rules state they are treated like a unit . if they are not treated like a unit armour rolls do not spill over
Again, "model", not "unit", note the difference. The target unit never ever changes at any point of this process. Also keep in mind that the original post was in the position of Projected Void Shields, and not those carried by the unit itself. Some minor differences there.
Reread the Shooting Sequence and the Vehicle Squadron rules again to note the differences between a non-Vehicle unit, a lone vehicle unit and a Squadron. I am not suggesting Armour Penetration Rolls spill over, I am saying the hits roll over. There is a significant difference in the Shooting Sequence here.
For example, 5 Piranhas who were hit by a 10-man 30K Devastator Squad all armed with Multimeltas and 8 shots are successful in hitting. You do not immediately roll all the Armour Penetration Rolls. Instead, you go to the nearest Piranha, and determine which Facing it is, not Cover, etc, and range for Melta. Then you do 1 Armour Penetration Roll, note if it is a Glancing/Penetrating Hit, Roll Saves, and check VDT where applicable. If the first Pirhanha didn't blow up, you repeat for the 2nd Armour Penetration Roll, and so on. If the first Piranha did blow up, you go the next nearest Piranha and check which Facing it is hitting, Cover, and range for Melta. Then you do the 2nd Armour Penetration Roll, note if it is a Glancing/Penetrating Hit, Roll Saves, and check VDT where applicable. The process repeats in this manner until all Piranhas are gone or all successful Multimelta hits have been processed.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/23 21:26:17
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
I am not disputing the vehicle squadron rules and the hits are referred to as working just like wounds and that they are treated like a unit for lots of things .A key point is that they specifically state on a number of occasion to allocate individual hits in bold .This is clearly an advanced rule that only happens for vehicle squadrons which are multiple models that have there own full stat line
The point here is that you have no permission to use vehicle squadron rules. This is just how you would like to resolve the situation
The void shield generator has its own data sheet additional void shields are described as upgrades not models
The building is treated as a vehicle for shooting pg110
Shooting at a vehicle roll to hit as normalpg 75
All shots hit at the same timepg 31
Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield.
All the shots have now hit the projected void shield.
i don't understand why you are suggesting i have to look up the vehicle squadron rules here .The only similarity between the two is that the projected void shield has an av value , The project void shield dosnt even have a stat line .ie a data sheet, an entry in a codex with bs a definition of what type of vehicle it is fast hover ect.
The void shield is not a model having an av value is not enough to define it as such. We have the void shield generator (the model ) that has a void shield. All we know is that a void shield is av 12 which is actually all that we need to know.
All hits intercepted by the void shield so we now move onto damage which are worked out as having hit at the same time.
i work out the damage using the av12 pg 75 (its also an interesting point that here there is also an advance rule about two models hitting different sides and stated that the shots are resolved per facing not individually) again the general rule is all hit at the same time Any overkill is lost as there is no advanced rule to state otherwise.
If all the projected void shields have collapsed, further hits strike the original target instead.
This dosnt specify that all hits are treated individually like the vehicle squadrons rules do pg 79
In this case "further hits" are looked at after all void shields have collapsed in any case so at best you could say hits spill over on the last void shield but again i cannot see where you are getting the permission to apply hits individually.
Your whole argument hinges on the vehicle squadron rules . In order to even begin doing that you first have to provide evidence that a void shield is a considered a vehicle . pg 79 vehicle squadrons
Most vehicles fight as individual units and are represented by a single model however some vehicles such as ork warbuggies and eldar vypers operate together in what are known as squadrons
vehicles pg 72
vehicles have a characteristics that define how powerful they are in a similar way to infantry. However there characteristics are different...............lists bsavhp type
buildings pg 110 have rules to define them as treated as being a vehicle but buildings are also defined by having a data sheet.
The void shields don't have a data sheet they don't have vehicle characteristics . They are in fact defined as a special rule (stronghold assault ISBN 978-1-78253-422-8 Games Workshop Ltd - 07.12.13 ) This means it cannot be part of the unit
i trust i have provided enough references for you but fear i have spent to much time trying to prove a point that has already been stated by other people
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/11/24 01:20:21
ian wrote: I am not disputing the vehicle squadron rules and the hits are referred to as working just like wounds and that they are treated like a unit for lots of things .A key point is that they specifically state on a number of occasion to allocate individual hits in bold .This is clearly an advanced rule that only happens for vehicle squadrons which are multiple models that have there own full stat line
Considering that you were thinking that Armour Pen Rolls spill over, that is why I said it. I even said that after telling you to reread those sections.
ian wrote: The point here is that you have no permission to use vehicle squadron rules. This is just how you would like to resolve the situation
Some of the language matches. I was using it as a way to point out some of the similar concepts.
ian wrote: i don't understand why you are suggesting i have to look up the vehicle squadron rules here.
For examples of how hits get allocated out before they are processed. I have said that in several posts now.
ian wrote: The only similarity between the two is that the projected void shield has an av value, The project void shield dosnt even have a stat line .ie a data sheet, an entry in a codex with bs a definition of what type of vehicle it is fast hover ect.
The void shield is not a model having an av value is not enough to define it as such. We have the void shield generator (the model ) that has a void shield. All we know is that a void shield is av 12 which is actually all that we need to know.
So we process it as nothing, then? How do we determine what is a Glancing or Penetrating Hit on Unit Type: "Special Rule"?
ian wrote: All hits intercepted by the void shield so we now move onto damage which are worked out as having hit at the same time.
i work out the damage using the av12 pg 75 (its also an interesting point that here there is also an advance rule about two models hitting different sides and stated that the shots are resolved per facing not individually) again the general rule is all hit at the same time Any overkill is lost as there is no advanced rule to state otherwise.
If all the projected void shields have collapsed, further hits strike the original target instead.
This dosnt specify that all hits are treated individually like the vehicle squadrons rules do pg 79
In this case "further hits" are looked at after all void shields have collapsed in any case so at best you could say hits spill over on the last void shield but again i cannot see where you are getting the permission to apply hits individually.
1) The target of the hits have not changed from the unit to the Void Shield.
2) Remaining hits are not noted as having been lost, they have to go somewhere.
3) "Further hits" is easily read to be looking at the hits from the same group of attacks which did not have a chance to roll against the Void Shield.
ian wrote: Your whole argument hinges on the vehicle squadron rules . In order to even begin doing that you first have to provide evidence that a void shield is a considered a vehicle . pg 79 vehicle squadrons
Most vehicles fight as individual units and are represented by a single model however some vehicles such as ork warbuggies and eldar vypers operate together in what are known as squadrons
vehicles pg 72
vehicles have a characteristics that define how powerful they are in a similar way to infantry. However there characteristics are different...............lists bsavhp type
buildings pg 110 have rules to define them as treated as being a vehicle but buildings are also defined by having a data sheet.
The void shields don't have a data sheet they don't have vehicle characteristics . They are in fact defined as a special rule (stronghold assault ISBN 978-1-78253-422-8 Games Workshop Ltd - 07.12.13 ) This means it cannot be part of the unit
i trust i have provided enough references for you but fear i have spent to much time trying to prove a point that has already been stated by other people
If it is not part of the unit then it cannot intercept hits and nothing can be allocated to it. There is no procedure for processing an Attack against a Special Rule no matter what stats it provides. This would make the Void Shield useless.
Keep in mind, I am trying to present this in familiar terminology and referencable rules to help you understand what I am trying to tell you.
When a unit is affected by the Stronghold Assault Projected Void Shield, the Void Shield moves to intercept and absorb the hits. Special Rules cannot be hit, though, so it presents itself with something we know how to process a hit against, AV 12.
For the processing of this hit, we treat it like we was a Vehicle that is part of the unit. Why a Vehicle? Buildings cannot be part of a multi-model unit, Vehicles can. The target of the attack still has not changed, so it needs to be part of the unit in question in order to have anything allocated to it, albeit very temporarily.
Since we now have something that needs to act like a Vehicle in what would be a multiple model unit (if the Shield had a model), has hits allocated to it for processing to it against an AV, so we are already jumping out of the normal Shooting Sequence. While we have moved out of the normal Shooting Sequence, what does it state about shooting at a multiple model unit with Vehicles?
Are you a Wolf, a Sheep, or a Hound?
Megavolt wrote:They called me crazy…they called me insane…THEY CALLED ME LOONEY!! and boy, were they right.
If you follow the specail rule it states that the hits hit the void sheild . We dont have to work out anything being a unit dosnt matter at all we just process the hits on the void sheild . We are told its av12 thats all we need . There is no reason to treat it like vehicle .we are then told what happens when we roll for a pen/glan its collaspes done .
Thats the special rule followed reading it in a straight forward manner. Taking into account general and specific rules
Trying to apply more spcific rules is just hiwpi as its uneassary to process the specail rule.
This whole part about a void sheild needing to be treated as a vehicle is not needed at all . Do you also roll on the damge chart like a vechile does ?. Because by your logic a specail rule cannot be hit meaning it also cannot be damaged so we must treat it like a vechile
The specail rule gives you all the rules you need to process the hits.
Im pretty sure there are buildings with multipul parts but would have to look to check but im also pretty sure that you destroy one part at a time .
I can confirm that you are allowed to have multi-part buildings pg112 and they are treated as seperate models in all regards (other than moving between them ) . And if you are insisting that we have to treat a void sheild as somthing . Then the closest thing we have that just has an av value is a building . So treat it as a building so it can be hit then look at pg 122 done
I do understand why you are presenting your arguement but unfortunatly this time it is not raw
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/11/24 09:09:00