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So after a few unsuccessful attempts at coming up with a decent list by myself, I figured that the best way to get an idea of what's possible with what I have is to list it all up and work up from there. I do have to mention the following before we begin though: I don't really like Skeleton Warriors, mostly because of their aesthetics and the fact that you need a lot of them before they even work properly (YMMV, ofcourse). Also, I'm going to buy the Start Collecting: Skeleton Horde box for Christmas, the contents of which have been added to the list of stuff I have.

Without further ado, here's what I have, what I intend to buy and possible alternate uses for some of the models:

1x Wight King / Vampire Lord

2x Necromancers / Liche Priest / (Heinrich Kemmler)

1x Mortarch / Terrorgheist / Zombie Dragon / Vampire Lord on Abyssal Terror or Zombie Dragon

10x Skeleton Archers (converted from Grave Guard)*

5x Grave Guard (swords)*

5x Grave Guard (halberds)*

10x Black Knights / Blood Knights

20x Skeleton Warriors (spears&shields)

6x Spirit Hosts

1x Bone Giant

*I'm probably going to merge these units into a bigger unit of Grave Guard, for obvious reasons

On top of the above, I'm considering to get one (or a couple) of the following:

A box of Grave Guard

A box of Skeleton Warriors

A Screaming Skull Catapult (converted from the Skaven Plagueclaw)

A Tomb Herald

A Necrotect

Personally, I'd love to run my Grave Guard a lot, as they're the models that won me over to playing the Death faction in the first place, alongside the Necromancer, Wight King and Blakc Knights (the latter two probably run as their Vampiric counterparts). The Bone Giant and Spirit Hosts are also favourites of mine, but they would probably not see much action in 1000 points games.

That also brings me to something I've probably been doing wrong all along: I've been so focussed on the 1000 point limit that I've completely ignored the possibility of running them at 1500 or 2000 points (or even beyond that), even if that may actually open up a lot more options for me.

I hope I don't sound too desperate with all this, but I'm really struggling with list-building and I could really use any and all advice I can get.

 Ezra Tyrius wrote:
So after a few unsuccessful attempts at coming up with a decent list by myself, I figured that the best way to get an idea of what's possible with what I have is to list it all up and work up from there. I do have to mention the following before we begin though: I don't really like Skeleton Warriors, mostly because of their aesthetics and the fact that you need a lot of them before they even work properly (YMMV, ofcourse). Also, I'm going to buy the Start Collecting: Skeleton Horde box for Christmas, the contents of which have been added to the list of stuff I have.

Without further ado, here's what I have, what I intend to buy and possible alternate uses for some of the models:

1x Wight King / Vampire Lord

2x Necromancers / Liche Priest / (Heinrich Kemmler)

1x Mortarch / Terrorgheist / Zombie Dragon / Vampire Lord on Abyssal Terror or Zombie Dragon

10x Skeleton Archers (converted from Grave Guard)*

5x Grave Guard (swords)*

5x Grave Guard (halberds)*

10x Black Knights / Blood Knights

20x Skeleton Warriors (spears&shields)

6x Spirit Hosts

1x Bone Giant

*I'm probably going to merge these units into a bigger unit of Grave Guard, for obvious reasons

On top of the above, I'm considering to get one (or a couple) of the following:

A box of Grave Guard

A box of Skeleton Warriors

A Screaming Skull Catapult (converted from the Skaven Plagueclaw)

A Tomb Herald

A Necrotect

Personally, I'd love to run my Grave Guard a lot, as they're the models that won me over to playing the Death faction in the first place, alongside the Necromancer, Wight King and Blakc Knights (the latter two probably run as their Vampiric counterparts). The Bone Giant and Spirit Hosts are also favourites of mine, but they would probably not see much action in 1000 points games.

That also brings me to something I've probably been doing wrong all along: I've been so focussed on the 1000 point limit that I've completely ignored the possibility of running them at 1500 or 2000 points (or even beyond that), even if that may actually open up a lot more options for me.

I hope I don't sound too desperate with all this, but I'm really struggling with list-building and I could really use any and all advice I can get.

If you hate skelleton warriors, How about getting more black knights?Go for a cavalry list. If you play death rattle you can play them as battle line, if you play GA Death, just take them as TK skelleton horsemen then they are battleline too. They are fast cheap and have potential of double wounds on the charge which can be good against monsters. Also when reviving , you revive 2 wounds/ model which makes up for their bad saves/

You can take them as well in blocks of 10 as 5. If you have a couple blocks of 1o they will like draw fire while the others are free to rampage. They are relatively cheap and are a threat that may draw fire away from your graveguard while you move them into place and you would have no need for a necrotect.


A Vampire lord on abyssal terror (make a unit even faster) or zombie dragon (reroll hits) can give a serious boost to this kind of list as it is also fast and makes you put pressure on your opponents.

The skelleton catapult sounds interesting for bigger games. even multiple. Especially: Can you summon crew without reinforcement points? as they come with the engine itself which is still on the battlefield? If yes, they are super otherwise I would personally not bother with them, just go for more of the hordes.

It's not that I hate Skeleton Warriors, it's just that I find other things more interesting to field I'd have no problem fielding a blob of 20 of them alongside the rest of my army, I just don't want the rest of my army to be blobs of Skeleton Warriors as well

As for your suggestion, I like the idea of fielding the Skeleton Horsemen to fill up the Battleline requirement, as I couldn't really do that before as I didn't have a second unit of Black Knights. That got me thinking, though; perhaps I could field the Skeleton Warriors as a 20-man blob alongside them? Or maybe keep a 10-man unit in reserves, and then summon it as a roadblock?

Here's what such a list would look like:

1x Vampire Lord on Abyssal Terror
1x Necromancer

10x Skeleton Horsemen
20x Skeleton Warriors
10x Grave Guard

Summoning:
5x Grave Guard

Or, alternatively:

1x Vampire Lord on Abyssal Terror
1x Necromancer

10x Skeleton horsemen
20x Grave Guard

Summoning:
10x Skeleton Warriors

The horsemen could be split up in two units, as they don't really gain anything from being in a bigger blob (aside from attracting more attention). In the second list, I could leave out the Skeleton Warriors and take a Tomb Herald instead, so he can bodyguard the Necromancer and boost the GG and Horsemen's banners. Hero-wise, I picked the Vampire Lord on Abyssal Terror, but he could be replaced with a regular Vampire Lord if necessary.

As for the Catapult, I'm not sure actually; it says that the summoned crew is added to your army, which implies that you would need to set aside points for them, but there's no separate entry for them in the Warscrolls Compendium, neither online or in the GHB... The Tomb Herald's ability can bring one model back every Hero phase though, as the crew also has the Deathrattle keyword.

Can you give us an idea of the power level of the kinds of lists you expect to be playing? That will help a lot.

Well, so far I've played against the following:

Dark Elves Exiles

Lord on Black Dragon
Sorceress

10x Executioners
10x Sisters of Slaughter

Chaos - Slaanesh

Sorcerer Lord on Manticore
Chaos Champion
Lord of Chaos

10x Chaos Warriors

5x Chaos Knights
5x Chaos Knights

Khorne Daemons

Bloodthirster
Bloodthirster

10x Bloodletters
10x Bloodletters

1x Skull Cannon

These were pretty strong lists, in my opinion, especially the last two, which practically tabled me before I could really do anything. The first list was strong, but got into trouble once the infantry got stuck in the Skeleton Warriors. I had no answer to the Lord on Black Dragon though, who luckily stayed out of combat for the entire battle (well, except for the start of the battle, where it promptly ate my buffed Skeleton Horsemen in one go).

There's also a Ogre Kingdoms/Destruction army (with a Stonehorn), a Free Peoples army and I think a Stormcast one, too.

Yeah, those armies are all solidly in the tough range, with the double thirster list tipping into cheese territory.

I do think you have a chance against these tougher lists once you get a big nasty of your own. I'd say your best bet is probably Neferata given what you already own. She is competent in close combat and provides very good support with an extremely annoying command ability and a nice spell.

You could do something like:

Neferata
Cairn Wraith
5 Blood Knights
10 Skeleton Warriors
10 Skeleton Warriors
5 Grave Guard


That would give you a couple of legitimate threats, a nice, cheap secondary hero character and it lets you get some grave guard on the table. I know you don't have a Cairn Wraith but you could either buy one or maybe convert one using hexwraith parts.


Another option is to invest in a Mourngul. I would not use this model against more normal lists, but against something like double Bloodthirster it's at least justifiable.

Neferata seems like a good choice indeed, although for that price I could also take a Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon, whose command ability and spell are also interesting (re-rolling failed to-hit rolls could be very useful, and the possibility of inflicting a bunch of mortal wounds on a unit sounds nice too). I'm not sure how useful the Cairn Wraith would be though, aside from it being very cheap.

And what about the Terrorgheist or Zombie Dragon? Are they worth considering?

Also, scrolling through the Warscrolls produced an interesting thought: running the Vampire Lord on Abyssal Terror and the Screaming Skull Catapult could be rather devastating for enemies with lower Bravery, I think, as the Catapult's shots reduce their target's Bravery by two points, and the Lord's ability forces enemy models to discard the lowest roll of two dice when rolling for Battleshock.

I don't want to echo previous advice, but it's worth looking into a mourngul.
With mystic shield they have a 2+ save that ignores rend.

With the death trait and the right command ability you also get a fixed 5+ after that too.
So while he is heavy on points, its damn near impossible to kill.

I've been running 2 at tournaments and shielding the one at most risk each turn and I swear by them.



To bring a shielded one down you need to put 90 wounds on it, while its healing every time it kills.
I use the pair for heavy lifting and killing characters between them and I really couldn't want much more.




Edit:


Ontop of that it ignores mortal wounds on a 4+ and has its 5+ afterwards, meaning you need to inflict 30 mortal wounds to kill one.

On a 6 to hit you gain and extra attack.

Units within 6" reduce to hit by 2 if it's 6 or lower, or by 1 if it's 7 or higher.




So it really is a beast.

 Ezra Tyrius wrote:
Neferata seems like a good choice indeed, although for that price I could also take a Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon, whose command ability and spell are also interesting (re-rolling failed to-hit rolls could be very useful, and the possibility of inflicting a bunch of mortal wounds on a unit sounds nice too). I'm not sure how useful the Cairn Wraith would be though, aside from it being very cheap.

And what about the Terrorgheist or Zombie Dragon? Are they worth considering?

Also, scrolling through the Warscrolls produced an interesting thought: running the Vampire Lord on Abyssal Terror and the Screaming Skull Catapult could be rather devastating for enemies with lower Bravery, I think, as the Catapult's shots reduce their target's Bravery by two points, and the Lord's ability forces enemy models to discard the lowest roll of two dice when rolling for Battleshock.

I think you might be getting a bit too cute with the screaming skull catapult. It's not cheap and the offensive output is pretty poor unless you support it with a Necrotect. They are very good for sniping heroes, but they will be really unreliable for this purpose at the 1k points level. Keep in mind that you're spending a bunch of points just to improve battleshock -- you still have to do enough damage to make the battleshock worthwhile. Battleshock is also much stronger against large, cheap units. None of your opponents are so far have been fielding these sorts of units. It's also completely negated by inspiring presence.

Terrorgheist and Zombie Dragon are both nice, but much worse than a Mourngul. Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon is worth considering. It can be very deadly, particularly with the Red Fury/Tomb Blade combination. He won't give much support but he will do a lot of heavy lifting by himself. If you prefer the model, go for it.

I'm not really a fan of the Mourngul, the model just doesn't do it for me, so if I would take a monster it'd probably be a toss-up between the Terrorgheist and the Zombie Dragon.

Also, is it just more or are Death's heroes a bit expensive for what they do? I mean, both the Bloodthirster and Dreadlord on Black Dragon from my previous battles clock in at a 100 points less than Neferata, Mannfred or a Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon, whilst sporting 14 wounds each whilst Neferata and Mannfred have 11.

(the Catapult/Vampire Lord combo was more of a thought experiment, by the way, although I'd probably field it at 1000 points anyway just to see how it would do )

swarmofseals wrote:
the double thirster list tipping into cheese territory.

AOS was new in the club, and we were still testing power levels of stuff.. .That double bloodthirster list has not been played since and will not be again at 1000 pts. We make it a point of talking to people to slow down when you get into cheese territory. It was a miscalculation on my part that day.

Here's what such a list would look like:

1x Vampire Lord on Abyssal Terror
1x Necromancer

10x Skeleton Horsemen
20x Skeleton Warriors
10x Grave Guard

Summoning:
5x Grave Guard



Or, alternatively:

1x Vampire Lord on Abyssal Terror
1x Necromancer

10x Skeleton horsemen
20x Grave Guard

Summoning:
10x Skeleton Warriors

For the lists you propose, I would not run skeletons and horses, go for consistency, that usually does the trick in low point army lists. You do not want to be half good in 2 things, you want to be really good in 1 thing and force your opponent to play that game. So or rush him with horses (support monster and graveguard), or swarm him with hordes (idem support).

For the horses you will need to playtest. I would try 10 and 2x5. If they get killed to easily go for 2x10

If you want to playtest, just let me know, I have more knowledge about the powerlevel of the game now, and have 5 different armies.

For summoning, note that you bring everything summonable for the point cost left asside and choose what you summon. you need not put "skelletons" into summoning, just 100 pts. so that can also be graveguard, some horses that already died, an extra hero so that your skelletons attacks double again etc etc.

both the Bloodthirster and Dreadlord on Black Dragon from my previous battles clock in at a 100 points less than Neferata, Mannfred or a Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon, whilst sporting 14 wounds each whilst Neferata and Mannfred have 11.

There are more aspects to pointcost then wounds, if you see what they can do for your army, boostingwise etc, A bloodthirster is only a melee bomb, and hero/monster take-out unit, that does 7-12 wounds on average when not wounded.

For the catapult:
Well yes, the crew is added, and if you add you need to pay the pointcost, but in the ghb it says you get the crew without paying an extra pointcost which makes it summonable for free as long as the catapult itself is still there... I think... And to agree with above, I would not really run the catapult in 1000 pts. But if you go 2000 or 2500 sure it will be cool.

Hmmm... well, let's suppose I go for the horsemen, leading to the following list:

1x Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon / Neferata

5x Horsemen
5x Horsemen

10x Grave Guard

That mounts up to 800 points, leaving me 200 points to summon. The Lord would probably move up alongside the Horsemen, which he can buff with his Dread Knight command ability (re-roll failed to-hit rolls, which comes in handy for them as they have 4+ to hit). Alternatively, Neferata's spell could be cast on both Horsemen units (as she can cast two spells each hero phase), allowing them to fly and make them ignore their opponents' Rend (which improves their survivability against hard-hitting enemies). Both of them can re-summon the Horsemen, so even if they whiff their first charge, I can get them back (unless my opponent unbinds the spell).

As for the Bloodthirster and other big heroes/monsters, my main concern is that my opponent will just blitz their monster at mine (as it's the biggest and most important target), and in that scenario having less wounds is definitely a problem.

Speaking of higher points values, what kind of army could I build at 1500 or 2000 points?

 Ezra Tyrius wrote:
Hmmm... well, let's suppose I go for the horsemen, leading to the following list:

1x Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon / Neferata

5x Horsemen
5x Horsemen

10x Grave Guard

That mounts up to 800 points, leaving me 200 points to summon. The Lord would probably move up alongside the Horsemen, which he can buff with his Dread Knight command ability (re-roll failed to-hit rolls, which comes in handy for them as they have 4+ to hit). Alternatively, Neferata's spell could be cast on both Horsemen units (as she can cast two spells each hero phase), allowing them to fly and make them ignore their opponents' Rend (which improves their survivability against hard-hitting enemies). Both of them can re-summon the Horsemen, so even if they whiff their first charge, I can get them back (unless my opponent unbinds the spell).

As for the Bloodthirster and other big heroes/monsters, my main concern is that my opponent will just blitz their monster at mine (as it's the biggest and most important target), and in that scenario having less wounds is definitely a problem.

Speaking of higher points values, what kind of army could I build at 1500 or 2000 points?

You can only cast the same spell once every turn. (the rules of one in the GHB)

I think it is time to playtest stuff and see what works. Be sure to test the vampirelord on abyssal terror to , as he is not so expensive for a 1000 pts game, I am sure in our club nobody minds passing of the lord on zombie dragon as an abyssal terror...
Also, if they rush your monster, throw in a roadblock, and play cat and mouse to make sure you get the charge and initiative, hell you can even throw a bolt first or mystic shield and boost your monster with all abilities before charging. A monster with wounds is a lot weaker... If you finish off their monster first it is game over for them...


I think next step is 2000 where you need an extra battle line choice.
I would bolster the ones you have:
a list like this:

LEADERS
Neferata Mortarch Of Blood (440) or the lord on zombie dragon
- General
Necromancer (120)
- Nightmare
Tomb Herald (100)
UNITS
Grave Guard x 10 (160)
- Wight Blades & Crypt Shields
Grave Guard x 10 (160)
- Wight Blades & Crypt Shields
Skeleton Horsemen x 10 (200)
Skeleton Horsemen x 10 (200)
Skeleton Warriors x 20 (160)
- Ancient Spear & Crypt or Tomb Shield
MONSTERS
Bone Giant (200)
WAR MACHINES
Screaming Skull Catapult (120)
Reinforcement: 140 pts

Ah yes, I forgot about that rule in the GHB... still, being able to cast twice in the Hero phase should be useful

I'm surprised none of you have mentioned the Spirit Hosts yet, I found them pretty useful in my last games. It sucks that they're Nighthaunt battleline though...

 Ezra Tyrius wrote:

As for the Bloodthirster and other big heroes/monsters, my main concern is that my opponent will just blitz their monster at mine (as it's the biggest and most important target), and in that scenario having less wounds is definitely a problem.

You want to be in a situation where you can charge their big thing before they charge yours. Sometimes this will work, sometimes it wont. While your heroes have fewer wounds, they have other things that give you an advantage in these kinds of fights. Neferata has her -1 hit aura and her spell is *fantastic* in monster vs. monster fights where your opponent is likely to have rendy attacks. 11 wounds will go a lot farther than 14 if you have a better save. Also remember that your death models get a 6+ ward save, which is basically like having and extra ~2 wounds on an 11 wound model. Your monsters also heal wounds, while many enemy monsters won't. A Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon doesn't have the same defensive advantages as Neferata but it has more wounds and can heal d6 with the chalice ability once per game.

Basically, your big monsters should be favored against most opponent monsters (but not all, there are some things that are even nastier).


I also just want to state for the record that I hate Skeleton Horsemen. They are fast but their offense is *terrible*. You are much better off using your reroll command ability on something that actually has some punch. Their speed does allow you to force your opponent to fight them, so they maybe have some potential as a tarpit... but most things that you actually want to tarpit with them will chew through the whole unit in one or two rounds of combat at most.