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Had an idea to make chain axes actually worth taking.

So make them STR 5 AP4 and every roll to wound of a 6 automatically creates another wound.

Thoughts?

If you're going to make it a tesla power maul -1S you might need to raise the price. Or lower the price of regular power weapons.

I say it should have rending the first round of combat.

Fleshbane?

I'd say either:

Rending, AP5

or

+1 Strength, AP 4. Which is the rules for Chain axes in Horus Heresy.

I'd be content with Rending AP5.

I'd just give them the rules they have in HH to be honest just to be consistent.

+1S AP4 for the current 8pts.
I'd also make potentially them cheaper on Bezerkers at the same time.

No they need to be standard on Berserkers.

I'm coming from the point of view that the Bezerker kit doesn't come with enough Chain Axes for all of them, and comes with Chainswords.

If Bezerkers are cheaper (admittedly I didn't say this, but I meant to) and Chainaxes are cheaper on them and better, both Naked and Axe zerkers are viable.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
I'm coming from the point of view that the Bezerker kit doesn't come with enough Chain Axes for all of them, and comes with Chainswords.

If Bezerkers are cheaper (admittedly I didn't say this, but I meant to) and Chainaxes are cheaper on them and better, both Naked and Axe zerkers are viable.

You can counts as. They're Berserker Marines and look unique enough that you're going to know which ones are regular Marines and which ones aren't. That's a crap excuse.

 Brutus_Apex wrote:
I'd say either:

Rending, AP5

or

+1 Strength, AP 4. Which is the rules for Chain axes in Horus Heresy.

This seems fitting and reasonable to me. Plus, rending is getting thrown on a lot of units these days. I kind of like having a non-rending bonus for a change. That said, strength 6 on every single berzerker on the charge is rather scary. Do we all feel this is a reasonable amount of oomph for a moderately-priced melee unit?

What about Shred? Seems rather fitting for a literal Chain Axe

What about Shred? Seems rather fitting for a literal Chain Axe

I always thought that adding shred to the Chainsword would be appropriate.

So a Chain Axe would be: Rending, AP 5

and a Chain Sword would be Shred, AP 5

Just to differentiate the two.

Just make them free, and bring down the cost of Berserkers imo.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
I'm coming from the point of view that the Bezerker kit doesn't come with enough Chain Axes for all of them, and comes with Chainswords.

If Bezerkers are cheaper (admittedly I didn't say this, but I meant to) and Chainaxes are cheaper on them and better, both Naked and Axe zerkers are viable.

You can counts as. They're Berserker Marines and look unique enough that you're going to know which ones are regular Marines and which ones aren't. That's a crap excuse.

Different strokes for different folks. Some people can be really picky when it comes to wargear and WYSIWYG and all that.

Plus it would be more competitive if you had to upgrade as it would allow you to have a few cheaper bodies as meatshields without axes to take a turn or two of fire before you charge in. A guy with an axe dies just as fast as a guy without.

Overall it's better that just going "they all get better chainaxes as standard even though the models comes with chainswords because I say so and my word is law" as it gives people a choice of what to run.

That doesn't make sense because even with a buffed Chainaxe it should mandatory they have it and for no cost increase.

Let's just agree to disagree. I think you're wrong, you think I'm wrong and I know you won't be able to convince me otherwise because you don't give any reasons other than "it should be because I say so" or "you make poor excuses", and I know I'm not going to be able to convince you because I've already said all I have to say: I think that having cheaper Bezerkers with the option to upgrade with better chainaxes for a points cost is better as it can allow people to run better-optimised squads and gives them more of a choice.

There really is no choice like you say there is.

Let us assume that you cut the cost for them by 3 points to 16, and the Chainaxe is still a 3 point upgrade. You know how many Chainaxes you'd need to not run to get that extra body? On top of that, how buffed does the weapon need to be before it reaches hidden Power Fist status and that you don't need a bunch in a squad?

It doesn't make sense from any perspective. Like you're really going to buy just a couple in a 10 man squad as though that saved THAT many points from not using their most famous weapon?

Chainaxes are not ideal armour piercing weapons. They are brute force items that tear flesh like paper, not dedicated-anti armour tools.

Ditch AP4 and give them Shred. Done.

After you fix points costs for weapon and wearer alike, of course.

I think the +1S AP4 is the best. It's a pseudo-power maul for berserkers that lets them carve through anything that's not a mech and against marines they destroy them through weight of attacks. Berserkers really should have 2 attacks base though.

I'd suggest that they should be an alternative to Chainswords rather than a flat upgrade. For the fluff to make sense, they have to be a tradeoff because if they are simply better, the Imperium has no reason to stop using them.
They need to be a sidegrade, which naturally gels with Berzerkers stats.

Based on that, I'd suggest that they go to Specialist Weapon & Shred, with the provision that Berzerkers go to A2 base.

That way, they move to the point where they are better than a Chainsword when charging, but weaker when fighting a prolonged combat. If you have the ability to dump lots of Attacks from Rage and Rampage, then they become even better.
It means that you can list them as a free swap that just happens to work better for Berzerkers than on other people, but remains situational enough to be free.

Mozzamanx wrote:
I'd suggest that they should be an alternative to Chainswords rather than a flat upgrade. For the fluff to make sense, they have to be a tradeoff because if they are simply better, the Imperium has no reason to stop using them.
They need to be a sidegrade, which naturally gels with Berzerkers stats.

Based on that, I'd suggest that they go to Specialist Weapon & Shred, with the provision that Berzerkers go to A2 base.

That way, they move to the point where they are better than a Chainsword when charging, but weaker when fighting a prolonged combat. If you have the ability to dump lots of Attacks from Rage and Rampage, then they become even better.
It means that you can list them as a free swap that just happens to work better for Berzerkers than on other people, but remains situational enough to be free.

I like this change. I support it wholeheartedly.

Grimskul wrote:I think the +1S AP4 is the best. It's a pseudo-power maul for berserkers that lets them carve through anything that's not a mech and against marines they destroy them through weight of attacks. Berserkers really should have 2 attacks base though.

It is certainly easier to process than the 3.5 version which made it impossible to be successful on an Armour Save Roll less than 4 against them. For them, Honour Guard, Tacticals, and Scouts were exactly the same for AS.

Mozzamanx wrote:I'd suggest that they should be an alternative to Chainswords rather than a flat upgrade. For the fluff to make sense, they have to be a tradeoff because if they are simply better, the Imperium has no reason to stop using them.
They need to be a sidegrade, which naturally gels with Berzerkers stats.

Based on that, I'd suggest that they go to Specialist Weapon & Shred, with the provision that Berzerkers go to A2 base.

That way, they move to the point where they are better than a Chainsword when charging, but weaker when fighting a prolonged combat. If you have the ability to dump lots of Attacks from Rage and Rampage, then they become even better.
It means that you can list them as a free swap that just happens to work better for Berzerkers than on other people, but remains situational enough to be free.

Shred would still be better in the long run. It's Reroll To Wound isn't just on the Charge, after all. And Shred has been suggested for Chainswords, too.

Just providing Rampage to the model would make it of more conditional (and fluffy) use than a Chainsword.

Still, a cheap Specialist Weapon would be very handy for a Khorne-marked Lord...

BiggestDakka wrote:
What about Shred? Seems rather fitting for a literal Chain Axe

Agreed, that what I was thinking too. Rending makes no sense imo

Horus heresy has them as S+1 AP4. So that, or, have a Khornate Chainaxe that gets S+1 AP4 reroll to wounds of a 1. Seems good for 8 points on characters, and berserkers should have them stock, and base 2 attacks.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That doesn't make sense because even with a buffed Chainaxe it should mandatory they have it and for no cost increase.

Maybe to you it doesn't make sense, but you are not thinking.

Chaos Space Marines are often ill-equipped. This is a fact.
Morseo those who fight consistently. Their weapons and armor are abused to the point of scavenging, and chainswords are a far more common option in the setting.

Learn to chaos bruh

Neronoxx wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
That doesn't make sense because even with a buffed Chainaxe it should mandatory they have it and for no cost increase.

Maybe to you it doesn't make sense, but you are not thinking.

Chaos Space Marines are often ill-equipped. This is a fact.
Morseo those who fight consistently. Their weapons and armor are abused to the point of scavenging, and chainswords are a far more common option in the setting.

Learn to chaos bruh

It is literally their stereotypical equipment. It is like having a Marine pay to use a Bolter.

I want to see them just switch to have the caress of death rule from harlequins. Any roll of 6 to hit autowounds @ ap2.

Let them just walk in cutting heads off!