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 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I'm not sure it can be blamed squarely on the stares and silence. My FLGS has a fair number of the female kind but only two play 40k and they're both WAGs funded by the significant other. Mostly the ladies in the shop play RPGs and card games like MtG.
I think the expensive plastic 'toys' are the big turn off.

Your personal group is not the same as EVERY group.

Your group has a lot of women in it because they DON'T do reactions like this.

The groups that DO stare end up with no women in them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
And again, I simply question how often that *actually* happens vs how much people joke about it happening or how much people perceive it happening when it's really not.

Do you understand that you do not witness every gaming club out there, only the ones YOU are at?

My wife plays orks. Yesterday at my local store, I saw two playing, one Eldar, one Tau, and there's a third that runs Tyranids.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:
I'm not sure it can be blamed squarely on the stares and silence. My FLGS has a fair number of the female kind but only two play 40k and they're both WAGs funded by the significant other. Mostly the ladies in the shop play RPGs and card games like MtG.
I think the expensive plastic 'toys' are the big turn off.

Your personal group is not the same as EVERY group.

Your group has a lot of women in it because they DON'T do reactions like this.

The groups that DO stare end up with no women in them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
And again, I simply question how often that *actually* happens vs how much people joke about it happening or how much people perceive it happening when it's really not.

Do you understand that you do not witness every gaming club out there, only the ones YOU are at?

My FLGS doesn't need to be the same as every other game shop to make up part of the sample. The lack of women in 40k goes deeper than girls being chased out by stares at the door, even if they do become part of the FLGS community they generally don't choose 40k without some serious convincing from a significant other.

 Psienesis wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
I played one at the Seattle GT and she beat me. She was very good. baited me perfectly with a stinking Librarian which kind of created a cascade of other things too long to mention but I remember her quite a qhile baqck and she manages a GW store if i remember correctly. She was also at the BAO one year if I recall and won it or got real close... Wish I could remember names.

If it is who I am thinking of, that's Sarah and, yes, she's crazy-good.

Yup,. She took me behind the shack and beat me like a red headed step child. Thought I had her for sure...and..I...didn't. Lol.

I've only ever been into a few stores to shop, never played before, but from what I've seen the stores are usually all male.I understand why though, usually male dominated hobby groups can be kinda creepy or hostile towards females

my store is gross imo. the guys eat food from the food court like savages.

there was a GF of a worker who once i was telling a story while using profanity, said "OH gak DIDN'T SEE THE LITTLE KID THERE SORRY"

turns out it was his GF and shes just REALLY SMALL and young looking

thats basically it tho. harsh but most of the men are unattractive and i believe that is also why there are less women but im sure ill get flamed for that

eosgreen wrote:
my store is gross imo. the guys eat food from the food court like savages.

there was a GF of a worker who once i was telling a story while using profanity, said "OH gak DIDN'T SEE THE LITTLE KID THERE SORRY"

turns out it was his GF and shes just REALLY SMALL and young looking

thats basically it tho. harsh but most of the men are unattractive and i believe that is also why there are less women but im sure ill get flamed for that

Actually I'm more of the lynching type but since I've been told with no feelings spared what my group and myself look like to the opposite sex I'm going to have to concede that one.

 amazingturtles wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
Let's say you're at a gaming club, playing Warhammer 40k, everything's going on normally, and you say or do something suddenly and the entire club of 30-40 people just stop, shut up, and stare at you. What would you have to do to make that happen? Something fairly wrong and incorrect, I'm sure.

Women get that reaction just by walking in the door. Which is why they then turn around and walk out.

How do you get more women to play at your club? Don't stare at them and just act like it's normal for them to be there, like you do when some guy walks in.

Does the "staring" thing really happen that frequently? The idea that someone walks in and everyone stares sounds more like a movie than a reality.

I mean, when someone, anyone, walks in to the local store here everyone turns around and looks... because the door makes a noise and the store manager will yell out from across the room "G'day! How's it going?". People instinctively turn around to see if it's someone they know.... and then turn back to playing their game or painting their models.

I can understand how someone might *feel* like they're being singled out if they don't match the demographic of the room, but I think it's just natural behaviour to look at the person who just walked in regardless of whether they're man, woman or child, I don't think it'd be an actual "stare" unless they've done something to draw attention to themselves (which maybe some women do unintentionally like wearing a low cut top).

Yes, it does. "Staring" does not mean looking up when someone walks into a room. It means looking at someone with the direct intent of watching them, rather than just noticing them.

And it happens to women regardless of the clothes we wear.

do we need to cover objectification 101? is that where we are?

That escalated quickly.


Stepping back for a second, I agree with Skink regarding the perception vs. reality bit. For some of us guys, perhaps an equivalent scenario might be walking into a women's retail shop without the security blanket of our partners. From personal experience when I've ventured alone into stores that cater exclusively to women I feel awkward upon entry, and under scrutiny by the staff and other patrons while I am in there. Whether or not that is actually the case, that I am being scrutinized or otherwise judged by the women in the store, it is something I feel because I am entering an area which I perceive to be off limits to me.

Seems reasonable to expect that a woman, having been told how masculine the hobby is, how toxic gaming shops can be, and all of the other negative stereotypes associated with our hobby, might enter a shop with some preconceptions on how she will be received.

That isn't to say that the gross staring doesn't occur, but rather that some of these "incidents" may simply be a matter of the viewer's perception being influenced by outside factors.

For example, my wife thinks the LGS smells. Sometimes it does, especially in the warmer months or if the play area is packed, but usually it doesn't smell like anything other than the plastic and paper scent of a bookstore. Every time I bring up going into the shop with me, she refuses citing the smell, despite times when she has gone in and it hasn't smelled of BO. To her it will eternally be a smelly place because she perceives it to be a smelly place, not because it is actually always smelly.

My wife did until she was scared off by some fedoras. They would talk about stuff like "how women are only good in movies when they show their boobs" and other awful things along the same lines.

 Vash108 wrote:
My wife did until she was scared off by some fedoras. They would talk about stuff like "how women are only good in movies when they show their boobs" and other awful things along the same lines.

And this children, is why it's hard to find girls playing at stores

 Vash108 wrote:
My wife did until she was scared off by some fedoras. They would talk about stuff like "how women are only good in movies when they show their boobs" and other awful things along the same lines.

I... I thought basic human decency was a fairly universal trait... I am actually finding it hard to believe anyone could be so crude.

 GreatGranpapy wrote:

 Vash108 wrote:
My wife did until she was scared off by some fedoras. They would talk about stuff like "how women are only good in movies when they show their boobs" and other awful things along the same lines.

I... I thought basic human decency was a fairly universal trait... I am actually finding it hard to believe anyone could be so crude.

Their language was much harsher than my quote. They would also talk about wanting to "breed" some of the women that come in the store or if a woman walked in they would always say something stupid like "They must have missed the nail salon next door".

Fortunately they were eventually asked to leave and not come back. But damage has been done.

I've seen similar comments here on this forum so I'm not surprised.

Including people actively arguing that women SHOULD be pushed away from the hobby.

I still recall a thread a few years back where a guy atarted the thread to make the argument of "Idon't want to see women in gw because my wife makes me miserable and I use gw to get away from women like her", for example.

 amazingturtles wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
Let's say you're at a gaming club, playing Warhammer 40k, everything's going on normally, and you say or do something suddenly and the entire club of 30-40 people just stop, shut up, and stare at you. What would you have to do to make that happen? Something fairly wrong and incorrect, I'm sure.

Women get that reaction just by walking in the door. Which is why they then turn around and walk out.

How do you get more women to play at your club? Don't stare at them and just act like it's normal for them to be there, like you do when some guy walks in.

Does the "staring" thing really happen that frequently? The idea that someone walks in and everyone stares sounds more like a movie than a reality.

I mean, when someone, anyone, walks in to the local store here everyone turns around and looks... because the door makes a noise and the store manager will yell out from across the room "G'day! How's it going?". People instinctively turn around to see if it's someone they know.... and then turn back to playing their game or painting their models.

I can understand how someone might *feel* like they're being singled out if they don't match the demographic of the room, but I think it's just natural behaviour to look at the person who just walked in regardless of whether they're man, woman or child, I don't think it'd be an actual "stare" unless they've done something to draw attention to themselves (which maybe some women do unintentionally like wearing a low cut top).

Yes, it does. "Staring" does not mean looking up when someone walks into a room. It means looking at someone with the direct intent of watching them, rather than just noticing them.

And it happens to women regardless of the clothes we wear.

do we need to cover objectification 101? is that where we are?

Yet looking up to see who comes in the room is often what people misconstrue as staring. As people have pointed out turning and noticing is something that happens, I do it all the time when people enter the room, I turn look for a moment and then look away, man or woman.

I dont think anyone was saying it doesn't happen regardless of what you wear, it was just an example of why it might happen in a particular instance.

Also objectification is not something that is just man on woman, women do plenty of objectifying, regardless of what men wear too.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Yet looking up to see who comes in the room is often what people misconstrue as staring.

Which post has done that, then? Who has said that? Who is making that argument?

 Melissia wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Yet looking up to see who comes in the room is often what people misconstrue as staring.

Which post has done that, then? Who has said that? Who is making that argument?

Unless you are straight up eyefething the person as the walk in the room and your look up turn more into a look up and your gaze follows them around the room then it shouldn't be a problem.

You didn't answer my question.

I hit the wrong quote button.

My bad. The mobile version of this site s9metimes makes it hard to read names due to them appearing very small sometimes.

 Melissia wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
Yet looking up to see who comes in the room is often what people misconstrue as staring.

Which post has done that, then? Who has said that? Who is making that argument?

It's a statement of personal experience, not every part of an argument needs to be taken directly from this particular discussion. There is an entire world of experience out there.

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
It's a statement of personal experience

So... nobody, then.

The difference is usually something like 30 secs to a min longer. The problem being it feels pretty intimidating.

I do feel a little uneasy whenever I enter a room and everyone looks up at me. It would only make sense that someone who is different in some ways, may feel more anxious than a person that is more typical of that environment.
I think there needs to be an individual effort to conduct oneself in an appropriate manner, but sadly many people think that inappropriate actions are appropriate.

I think that the more women there are in Warhammer, that the more comfortable they will be, but that is in part a catch 22 situation as you need women to join to even make that happen. There are no easy answers , but I think the best way to bring about change is to simply be nice to those around you.

 Melissia wrote:

 VictorVonTzeentch wrote:
It's a statement of personal experience

So... nobody, then.

Since when does everything need to be drawn from this thread exactly. Everyone's declarations of what they have seen or experienced should then be treated as hearsay.

Their instances didn't specifically happen in this thread there for it didn't happen.

You're the one asserting that "looking up to see who comes in the room is often what people misconstrue as staring." And you're also pretty much the ONLY one asserting that.

I dispute that it's really all that common for merely looking up to see who comes in the room is interpreted as "staring" or "ogling". I've seen both situations, and the difference is very stark and difficult to mistake.

 Melissia wrote:
You're the one asserting that "looking up to see who comes in the room is often what people misconstrue as staring." And you're also pretty much the ONLY one asserting that.

I dispute that it's really all that common for merely looking up to see who comes in the room is interpreted as "staring" or "ogling". I've seen both situations, and the difference is very stark and difficult to mistake.

I am stating that what I have seen people misconstrue such glances in person. You can dispute it all you want, your experiences are ultimately as irrelevant to me as mine are to you. Don't tell me it's a dispute it's an off hand dismissal based on nothing in this thread matching it and has been presented in a manner that comes very much across as you finding what I have seen as irrelevant. For instance your "So.. nobody then."

I don't recall making an implication that such things had been said here. The thing I did mention other people, in this thread, as mentioning is that people turn to notice when people enter.

To be somewhat less confrontational, perhaps we have a different idea of a glance. For me a glance can be longer than simply looking and registering that a person it's there. It involves actually taking note of them and assessing them. It's coming around my area to glance like that. Maybe it's not for you?

If you're staring at them for ten-twenty seconds to "assess" them, that's way more than a glance.

Where are you getting that time frame from? Cause I sure didn't mention one.

Regardless I agree 10-20 is a long time and not a glance.

3-5 maybe, but I've seen people be uncomfortable from that and mention it to people.

There seems to be a lot of chicken or the egg going on here.

Until I found my current gaming group, I think I've met maybe 3 women who played 40K with any kind of regularity. I'm not the most prolific player, but I've been playing since 3rd ed.

My current group actually has 5 female players of varying degrees of regularity. They're some of my LARP friends, and one of them started a Pathfinder campaign a couple years back I got involved in.

Pre-Pathfinder one day, I was talking to one of the other fellows who had recently gotten into 40K - I was asking him what he played and whatnot and two of the women got interested in what we were talking about right away. So, we staged a demo game, and those two girls got hooked.

I took it upon myself to impose some house rules to prevent some of the excess shenanigans 6th ed allowed, and also so as new players they (and the fellow I had the demo game with) wouldn't have to worry about things like flyers and Lords of War as they were learning the game.

I started bringing my extra stuff to the group for them to use - you know, those minis one winds up with that sit around and never get used - the Assault on Black Reach marines, for instance. I told some of my other gaming friends about it, and those who had played 40K but don't anymore gave me scads of stuff, which I passed on after sorting it out. The first two who were interested now play Harlequins and Blood Angels. The aforementioned GM of our Pathfinder campaign professed to not want to get involved in another hobby, but the Sisters of Battle army I left laying around had other ideas, and now she plays Sisters and Chaos. Another of my Pathfinder friends got hooked on Eldar. The GM's best friend became all about the Space Wolves once she found out they existed.

I provided one of our two tables, and terrain for them, most of which I made. I enjoy making terrain when I can find the time.

So, I've got all these female 40K playing friends, but I don't think a one of them has set foot in a gaming store to play, and they don't really need to.