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 Crimson wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

What exactly would you do differently if you believed the article and took its suggestion of playing with GW dice anyways?

Well obviously I would never play with such dice. The dice that imbalanced would have a huge effect on how the game plays. The areas most obviously affected would be units with good armour saves and get's hot weapons which would be massively worse than they should. Weapons relying on scatter would be somewhat better than they should. And of course if only one side was using such dice, that side would be completely fethed unless they built their entire army around scatter-based weapons (and probably still, because they would have significant disadvantage while wounding and making armour pen rolls.)

And you would solve that like I said in the OP I did, by going to a store to order balanced dice.

Why would you keep playing with dice that you thought were screwing you over, instead of just buying new dice that you believe are fair? Dice aren't a rarity, you can just buy different ones.

 Pouncey wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:


You're the one insisting slight imperfections in the dice have something to do with the 'ultimate condemnation' of the game. No game cares about a half a percent variance, no matter how well-made it is, just because we'd all get bored and go home long before we rolled enough dice to notice.

(80 is probably the soft limit for the number of dice you're getting out of a single attack; you can get more, but if you are it's pobably because you're doing something silly just to set the record rather than because you actually need to. For reference the two units off the top of my head that will put out eighty shots are Legion Tactical Squads (in which case that's eighty bolter shots) or Secutarii Peltasts (in which case they're S3/AP-/Shred).)

If you're gonna argue with me what I meant when I wrote the OP, you should probably read more of it than the first sentence. Also you should read the full title instead of all of it except the last word.

Fine. To summarize.

Your initial point was that you'd came across a person in a game store, who'd read an article you'd read condemning GW/Chessex dice as unfair. When purchasing some dice from him he told you that (and I quote) "'If you're playing Warhammer 40k, you're not the kind of person who cares enough about game balance to need fair dice.'". You then bought 'unfair' dice and have never regretted the decision since.

I'm taking issue with the suggestion that the variance in die rolls matters in any way. The fundamental assumption behind this whole discussion is that slight variances in your dice are going to make one whit of difference in any wargame, but the miniscule fractions we're talking about aren't going to manifest themselves in the data if you keep track of all your die rolls for a year, let along make any difference to the outcome of a single game.

The assertion that 40k players don't care enough about game balance to need 'fair dice' is stupid. 'Fair dice'/'unfair dice' are important for casinos, but for the rest of us they're a demon to blame bad rolls on or a marketing phrase to sell more expensive dice to mildly OCD people. You don't need to care about whether your dice are fair in 40k because as far as the scale of die rolls in a game goes they already are fair, you don't need to care about whether you've got optimal perfect dice any more or less than you do in any other game.

Thus the suggestion that this has anything to do with a condemnation of 40k in particular is nonsense. You could find-replace every instance of '40k' in your conversation with the game store employee from the original post with 'Warmachine' and end up with the exact same conversation and the exact same level of gibberish.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 AnomanderRake wrote:


You're the one insisting slight imperfections in the dice have something to do with the 'ultimate condemnation' of the game. No game cares about a half a percent variance, no matter how well-made it is, just because we'd all get bored and go home long before we rolled enough dice to notice.

(80 is probably the soft limit for the number of dice you're getting out of a single attack; you can get more, but if you are it's pobably because you're doing something silly just to set the record rather than because you actually need to. For reference the two units off the top of my head that will put out eighty shots are Legion Tactical Squads (in which case that's eighty bolter shots) or Secutarii Peltasts (in which case they're S3/AP-/Shred).)

If you're gonna argue with me what I meant when I wrote the OP, you should probably read more of it than the first sentence. Also you should read the full title instead of all of it except the last word.

Fine. To summarize.

Your initial point was that you'd came across a person in a game store, who'd read an article you'd read condemning GW/Chessex dice as unfair. When purchasing some dice from him he told you that (and I quote) "'If you're playing Warhammer 40k, you're not the kind of person who cares enough about game balance to need fair dice.'". You then bought 'unfair' dice and have never regretted the decision since.

I'm taking issue with the suggestion that the variance in die rolls matters in any way. The fundamental assumption behind this whole discussion is that slight variances in your dice are going to make one whit of difference in any wargame, but the miniscule fractions we're talking about aren't going to manifest themselves in the data if you keep track of all your die rolls for a year, let along make any difference to the outcome of a single game.

The assertion that 40k players don't care enough about game balance to need 'fair dice' is stupid. 'Fair dice'/'unfair dice' are important for casinos, but for the rest of us they're a demon to blame bad rolls on or a marketing phrase to sell more expensive dice to mildly OCD people. You don't need to care about whether your dice are fair in 40k because as far as the scale of die rolls in a game goes they already are fair, you don't need to care about whether you've got optimal perfect dice any more or less than you do in any other game.

Thus the suggestion that this has anything to do with a condemnation of 40k in particular is nonsense. You could find-replace every instance of '40k' in your conversation with the game store employee from the original post with 'Warmachine' and end up with the exact same conversation and the exact same level of gibberish.

You might want to re-read. I read that article online. THEN I went to the store to buy better dice. THEN I found out he had ALSO read that article. He asked if the dice I was buying were for WH40k.

That's the point he was trying to get across to me. That I didn't need to buy the dice from him, because the game isn't balanced well enough to NEED fair dice. That I had erred in thinking that I NEED fair dice to enjoy WH40k, because the game is NOT balanced well enough for it to MATTER.

Maybe it's not just 40k. Maybe he WOULD have said the same thing if the dice I were buying were for Warmachine. The topic of other tabletop games NEVER came up.

 Pouncey wrote:

And you would solve that like I said in the OP I did, by going to a store to order balanced dice.

I have (sufficiently) balanced dice.

Why would you keep playing with dice that you thought were screwing you over, instead of just buying new dice that you believe are fair? Dice aren't a rarity, you can just buy different ones.

I don't believe my dice are screwing me over, in fact, I know with reasonable confidence that they aren't. If you (or anyone else) believed the article and as a result bough expensive 'perfect' dice, then you were conned. The problem is not real and the fix for it is not real. Now, in this case it is pretty innocious, it is a game and even the expensive dice are not that expensive, so it really is not that big of a deal. But then again, the world is full of similar gak relating to more serious issues and involving bigger amounts of money. People are conned in believing there is problem that can be fixed by buying some expensive doodah or magic potion or whatnot. It is most serious when it comes to health, people have died because they believed in all sorts of magic crystal or homeopathy bogus cures and refused to seek a real doctor.

 Crimson wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

And you would solve that like I said in the OP I did, by going to a store to order balanced dice.

I have (sufficiently) balanced dice.

Exactly. You believe the article is entirely wrong, so you keep using your GW dice since you don't believe they're causing you any problems. I believe the article is correct, so I keep using my GW dice since I don't believe they're causing me any problems.

Why does it even matter enough to prove the article wrong if you're gonna do the same thing whether you believe it or not?

Why would you keep playing with dice that you thought were screwing you over, instead of just buying new dice that you believe are fair? Dice aren't a rarity, you can just buy different ones.

I don't believe my dice are screwing me over, in fact, I know with reasonable confidence that they aren't. If you (or anyone else) believed the article and as a result bough expensive 'perfect' dice, then you were conned. The problem is not real and the fix for it is not real. Now, in this case it is pretty innocious, it is a game and even the expensive dice are not that expensive, so it really is not that big of a deal. But then again, the world is full of similar gak relating to more serious issues and involving bigger amounts of money. People are conned in believing there is problem that can be fixed by buying some expensive doodah or magic potion or whatnot. It is most serious when it comes to health, people have died because they believed in all sorts of magic crystal or homeopathy bogus cures and refused to seek a real doctor.

You JUST said the expensive dice are NOT THAT EXPENSIVE.

And the article even SAID you can keep playing with your GW dice and it's totally fine.

THE ARTICLE SAID YOU'LL BE FINE IF YOU JUST KEEP THE DICE YOU'RE ALREADY USING.

You're fine using the GW dice, because the article's claims about the imbalance are complete bogus. If they were true you would not be fine (not being fine in this context defined as losing significantly more games than you otherwise would.)

 Pouncey wrote:
...because the game is NOT balanced well enough for it to MATTER...

I'm trying to point out that this specific thought is complete nonsense. There is NO GAME in which having 'fair dice' matters, and hence the idea that this is somehow a condemnation of 40k is ridiculous.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

I'm trying to point out that this specific thought is complete nonsense. There is NO GAME in which having 'fair dice' matters, and hence the idea that this is somehow a condemnation of 40k is ridiculous.

You're wrong. Sure, the imperfections that actually exist in dice do not matter, because they're so small. However, the article which OP thinks is true claims that GW/Chessex dice roll ones ALMOST TWICE as often as they statistically should. Now, such imbalance of course does not actually exist, and it is unlikely it could exist unless the dice were intentionally weighted so. However, if it would exist, it definitely would matter.

 Crimson wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

I'm trying to point out that this specific thought is complete nonsense. There is NO GAME in which having 'fair dice' matters, and hence the idea that this is somehow a condemnation of 40k is ridiculous.

You're wrong. Sure, the imperfections that actually exist in dice do not matter, because they're so small. However, the article which OP thinks is true claims that GW/Chessex dice roll ones ALMOST TWICE as often as they statistically should. Now, such imbalance of course does not actually exist, and it is unlikely it could exist unless the dice were intentionally weighted so. However, if it would exist, it definitely would matter.

...Fine. Connect me back to any kind of condemnation of 40k out of this. How much arguing over whether hypothetical rigged dice are rigged or not do we really need?

The OP is claiming to have rigged dice that roll 1s twice as often as they should, and claiming that 40k keeps going in spite of it. Cool. I disagree with the facts. I put it to you that these hypothetical dice that roll 1s 1/3rd of the time don't exist and that Pouncey has been playing 40k with plain, ordinary, normal, dice that roll within a percent or two of what they should be rolling all this time.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I put it to you that these hypothetical dice that roll 1s 1/3rd of the time don't exist and that Pouncey has been playing 40k with plain, ordinary, normal, dice that roll within a percent or two of what they should be rolling all this time.

Yep. I'm about 99% certain that this exactly is the case.

 Crimson wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I put it to you that these hypothetical dice that roll 1s 1/3rd of the time don't exist and that Pouncey has been playing 40k with plain, ordinary, normal, dice that roll within a percent or two of what they should be rolling all this time.

Yep. I'm about 99% certain that this exactly is the case.

So the eight pages that were there before I came in on this were entirely Pouncey whining about bad dice.

Can we call the mods to lock this thread yet?

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
I put it to you that these hypothetical dice that roll 1s 1/3rd of the time don't exist and that Pouncey has been playing 40k with plain, ordinary, normal, dice that roll within a percent or two of what they should be rolling all this time.

Yep. I'm about 99% certain that this exactly is the case.

So the eight pages that were there before I came in on this were entirely Pouncey whining about bad dice.

Can we call the mods to lock this thread yet?

No, they were mostly people who came into what I thought would be a fun discussion on a story, and decided to start arguing seriously about math.

"The ultimate condemnation of WH40k's rules" is a pretty inflammatory starting point for a 'fun discission on a story', especially when the story has nothing to do with it.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
"The ultimate condemnation of WH40k's rules" is a pretty inflammatory starting point for a 'fun discission on a story', especially when the story has nothing to do with it.

So basically I wrote a bad title and you decided to start arguing about math?

Instead of just saying, "Hey, your title's a bit extreme, maybe rephrase it a bit?"

 Pouncey wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
"The ultimate condemnation of WH40k's rules" is a pretty inflammatory starting point for a 'fun discission on a story', especially when the story has nothing to do with it.

So basically I wrote a bad title and you decided to start arguing about math?

Instead of just saying, "Hey, your title's a bit extreme, maybe rephrase it a bit?"

You wrote a post including a title, which made a point I thought was wrong, which was also (independently) a point unconnected to the title. Math happened to be relevant to establishing that.

Can I just ask what you expected to get out of insulting 40k players in the 40k general discussion thread? Did you expect to have a nice calm chat about it?

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
"The ultimate condemnation of WH40k's rules" is a pretty inflammatory starting point for a 'fun discission on a story', especially when the story has nothing to do with it.

So basically I wrote a bad title and you decided to start arguing about math?

Instead of just saying, "Hey, your title's a bit extreme, maybe rephrase it a bit?"

You wrote a post including a title, which made a point I thought was wrong, which was also (independently) a point unconnected to the title. Math happened to be relevant to establishing that.

Can I just ask what you expected to get out of insulting 40k players in the 40k general discussion thread? Did you expect to have a nice calm chat about it?

You know that I'm a 40k player too, right? What I said in the OP was said directly to me, so it applies to me too. And I didn't get upset about it, since I knew it was true. And it's not an insult to care more about whether a game is fun than whether it's balanced.

 Pouncey wrote:
...You know that I'm a 40k player too, right? What I said in the OP was said directly to me, so it applies to me too. And I didn't get upset about it, since I knew it was true. And it's not an insult to care more about whether a game is fun than whether it's balanced.

That's the fundamental issue. You "knew it was true" that 40k players "don't care enough about balance to use 'fair dice'". It's a stupid statement on so many levels that I'm not going to go through them yet again I'm simply going to say that it's not even wrong (explanation at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong before someone misinterprets that sentence and starts us down yet another walk into the weeds).

You're lending infinitely more credence to that statement than it deserves by repeating it, let alone by endorsing it. Some of us who play 40k, do care about balance, and know what we're talking about with respect to dice would consider that insulting.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
...You know that I'm a 40k player too, right? What I said in the OP was said directly to me, so it applies to me too. And I didn't get upset about it, since I knew it was true. And it's not an insult to care more about whether a game is fun than whether it's balanced.

That's the fundamental issue. You "knew it was true" that 40k players "don't care enough about balance to use 'fair dice'". It's a stupid statement on so many levels that I'm not going to go through them yet again I'm simply going to say that it's not even wrong (explanation at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong before someone misinterprets that sentence and starts us down yet another walk into the weeds).

You're lending infinitely more credence to that statement than it deserves by repeating it, let alone by endorsing it. Some of us who play 40k, do care about balance, and know what we're talking about with respect to dice would consider that insulting.

Well, clearly this was an incredibly dumb thread for me to make and there's no reason for it to continue.

If I contact a moderator by PM, and I ask them to lock this thread since it should never have been made, will they do it since I'm the one who wrote it?

 Pouncey wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
...You know that I'm a 40k player too, right? What I said in the OP was said directly to me, so it applies to me too. And I didn't get upset about it, since I knew it was true. And it's not an insult to care more about whether a game is fun than whether it's balanced.

That's the fundamental issue. You "knew it was true" that 40k players "don't care enough about balance to use 'fair dice'". It's a stupid statement on so many levels that I'm not going to go through them yet again I'm simply going to say that it's not even wrong (explanation at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong before someone misinterprets that sentence and starts us down yet another walk into the weeds).

You're lending infinitely more credence to that statement than it deserves by repeating it, let alone by endorsing it. Some of us who play 40k, do care about balance, and know what we're talking about with respect to dice would consider that insulting.

Well, clearly this was an incredibly dumb thread for me to make and there's no reason for it to continue.

If I contact a moderator by PM, and I ask them to lock this thread since it should never have been made, will they do it since I'm the one who wrote it?

I reported one of my own posts a little ways up the page, we should be hearing from them soon (I hope).

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
...You know that I'm a 40k player too, right? What I said in the OP was said directly to me, so it applies to me too. And I didn't get upset about it, since I knew it was true. And it's not an insult to care more about whether a game is fun than whether it's balanced.

That's the fundamental issue. You "knew it was true" that 40k players "don't care enough about balance to use 'fair dice'". It's a stupid statement on so many levels that I'm not going to go through them yet again I'm simply going to say that it's not even wrong (explanation at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong before someone misinterprets that sentence and starts us down yet another walk into the weeds).

You're lending infinitely more credence to that statement than it deserves by repeating it, let alone by endorsing it. Some of us who play 40k, do care about balance, and know what we're talking about with respect to dice would consider that insulting.

Well, clearly this was an incredibly dumb thread for me to make and there's no reason for it to continue.

If I contact a moderator by PM, and I ask them to lock this thread since it should never have been made, will they do it since I'm the one who wrote it?

I reported one of my own posts a little ways up the page, we should be hearing from them soon (I hope).

Works for me.

If a moderator reads this, just lock the thread. It's fine.

I was actually watching a game earlier where i guy kept rolling 1's and 2's on all his melta attacks. he must be using the same brand.

 Lamoura wrote:
I was actually watching a game earlier where i guy kept rolling 1's and 2's on all his melta attacks. he must be using the same brand.

Yeah, this is exactly how these rumours about crooked dice start. People remember an isolated streak of bad luck that is in reality a perfectly normal random occurrence.

 Crimson wrote:

 Lamoura wrote:
I was actually watching a game earlier where i guy kept rolling 1's and 2's on all his melta attacks. he must be using the same brand.

Yeah, this is exactly how these rumours about crooked dice start. People remember an isolated streak of bad luck that is in reality a perfectly normal random occurrence.

Yup, then someone says that, and I say, "You'll see." and proceed to roll 4 1s and a 2 on 5 rolls.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Lamoura wrote:
I was actually watching a game earlier where i guy kept rolling 1's and 2's on all his melta attacks. he must be using the same brand.

Yeah, this is exactly how these rumours about crooked dice start. People remember an isolated streak of bad luck that is in reality a perfectly normal random occurrence.

Yup, then someone says that, and I say, "You'll see." and proceed to roll 4 1s and a 2 on 5 rolls.

That works the opposite for me, I always seem to get lots of 6's when it comes to deny the witch rolls, does that mean I'm (anti?) psychic too?

Don't ask me the source of my powers though, you can't know and don't know

 Grimskul wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Lamoura wrote:
I was actually watching a game earlier where i guy kept rolling 1's and 2's on all his melta attacks. he must be using the same brand.

Yeah, this is exactly how these rumours about crooked dice start. People remember an isolated streak of bad luck that is in reality a perfectly normal random occurrence.

Yup, then someone says that, and I say, "You'll see." and proceed to roll 4 1s and a 2 on 5 rolls.

That works the opposite for me, I always seem to get lots of 6's when it comes to deny the witch rolls, does that mean I'm (anti?) psychic too?

Don't ask me the source of my powers though, you can't know and don't know

Why are you bringing your imaginary psychic powers up right now? It's not relevant to anything you replied to.