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Martel732 wrote:
They're actually not good at any of that. Which is why they're bad. A heavy bolter kills an Ork per turn. One. Lascannons take an eternity to kill MCs and anything AV 12 and above.

Yes, well try bringing more than 1. I'm willing to bet 5 heavy bolters gets some players uneasy, while 5 lascannons would make them think, "no sweat".

Personally, I would much rather see Lascannons to Heavy Bolters, but 1K sons are expensive, and have an invul save.

and a heavy bolters kill 1.33 orks per turn, get 5 and you're killing about 6-7 orks per turn without any kind of augmentation, start adding things like twin-linked which ups it to 8-9 per turn.

Bringing more than one gets prohibitively expensive. That's the problem. Imperial heavy weapons have a gak return for their cost and opportunity cost. Except grav cannons.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I'm talking about Gladius my bad.

Gladius still doesn't mean six Tac Squads and free transports, since the Gladius starts out as a single Demi-Co and Auxiliary. Not everyone who uses the Gladius doubles up for the full company transport bonus, because two Demi Cos gobble points and make it real difficult to fit in other very competitive options, like a Conclave.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Plus Tactical Marines are garbage outside of it, so in lower point games you're using Scouts and/or Bikers. So I don't see what point you're making.

Tactical Squads not in a Gladius still get Grav Cannons, can still make excellent Rhino bunkers, can still Combat Squad on the Drop and can still get Doctrines as UM. I haven't taken Bikes is years, and wouldn't bring Scouts as my main battle line. Tacs do the work I need them to do.

- - -

Martel732 wrote:
"Lascannons are still solid rear-field choices in numbers, especially with Doctrine re-rolls, or as Imperial Fist Tank Hunters. Multimeltas in particular are good in the Skyhammer. Heavy Plasma Gun is fun on Legion of the Damned since they Ignore Cover."

You have to tack on additional rules to make the weapons good. That's not the same as the weapon itself being good.

Or you just bring more of them. Which is why they're still useful in a Devastator squad which brings four, and their range means they can knock off the last few hull points or wounds of whatever your battle line is putting hits on. You know, fire support. Just the other day I used Lascannons to do the last two wounds on a Riptide.

I'm looking forward to seeing what the Legion book will be like. If Iron Warriors get Tank Hunters on their Havocs, because that's going to be nasty vs. stuff like Knights.

Las devastator squads are terrible. What you are talking about?

Doesn't matter; tactical squads and their equivalents can't mass heavy weapons any way.

Darkwynn ran two units of Lasdevs in his Sentinels of Terra list at LVO last year. Tank Hunter Lascannons are fragile though they do have niche use for blowing through Void Shields/scrubbing a few HP off a Knight (at least until said Knight fires back, that is). Of course, he had a Thunderfire as his third HS, and Gravcents as Elites, so there's that...

Or there's hanging at a table edge and sniping Broadsides or so...

Still not anything wtfbbq but not necessarily terrible.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

First two points: Don't give non-relentless models heavy weapons. I don't, and I have combat squads
Third point: Buy two squads.
Fourth point: There is no overkill with boltguns
Fifth point: Boltguns are already ineffective; and don't give you tac squads or whatever CSM have anti-tank weapons.

1.) why shouldn't I give non-relentless models heavy weapons? Because you said so?

2.) Which limits me to 30 models and 0 heavy weapons

3.) So shooting 3 termagants/Guardsman/Boyz with 10 bolter shots would not be overkill?

4.) Boltguns are plenty effective against what they need to be effective against. If I did that then I would get flamers and plasma only.

Martel732 wrote:
Everyone needs a reality check that Imperial heavy weapons other than grav suck. They just do. It's dumb to me that CSM don't have grav, but this means that CSM heavy weapons are all bad. So don't use bad things. Especially on non-relentless platforms.

You have to tack on additional rules to make the weapons good. That's not the same as the weapon itself being good.

The weapons are mostly designed for specific targets, Heavy Bolters are good for horde, Lascannons are good for Tanks/MC, adding things like TH/MH make them better not good, unless you think that bringing a single lascannon should be able to reliably kill a Leman Russ each turn?


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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Then don't buy Heavy Weapons for Chaos Tactical Marines? They get two specials. It isn't my fault if you want to do the special snowflake Flamer + Missile Launcher.

Yes, that's the answer which gives TM a huge advantage. CSM CAN get two specials if they take 10 guys, again they all 10 have to run in 1 squad, and if I put meltas for vehicles or plasmas for AP2, then I'm either firing 8 guys at something they can't hurt, or firing 8 guys at something that they likely won't hurt. comparatively you could get a lascannon for the price of 2 meltas shoot a transport with the lascannon and still have 10 bolter shots to shoot at whatever comes out, and if you don't destroy the transport then you can fire at something you can hurt. Finally stop trying to insult me by telling me I just want to be unique, I like what I like and I don't care who else likes, or doesn't , like it.

Two special weapons allow more specialization against specific targets. There's a reason even 6th edition Grey Hunters are several times better than the Tactical Marine, and this is partly why. It doesn't matter your Bolters aren't hurting a tank if you're able to shoot it with 2 Melta Guns (and maybe a Combi-Melta) and charge at the contents inside. The Bolters would've been useless in the five man squad anyway, so that doesn't help your point.

Like I said, it is a gimmicky rule outside of literally two situations I gave. Only one of those is actually competitive in some sort (Skyhammer).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also YES don't give non-Relentless models Heavy Weapons. Take weapons that can be used on the move for a squad that, you know, is constantly moving.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Two special weapons allow more specialization against specific targets. There's a reason even 6th edition Grey Hunters are several times better than the Tactical Marine, and this is partly why. It doesn't matter your Bolters aren't hurting a tank if you're able to shoot it with 2 Melta Guns (and maybe a Combi-Melta) and charge at the contents inside. The Bolters would've been useless in the five man squad anyway, so that doesn't help your point.

Like I said, it is a gimmicky rule outside of literally two situations I gave. Only one of those is actually competitive in some sort (Skyhammer).

Two special weapons require 10 man squads that 8 bolters shots min wasted per squad up to 16, three times that 24-48 shots, that is a lot of wasted firepower. Those shots can be better used elsewhere. Next people can charge the contents but for CSM to have any real advantage over TM they would have to either swap most of the units Bolt Guns with CCW, or buy CCW and if I buy a CCW plus i'm paying 15 PPM a 10 man squad with 2 meltas is 170 points. So what advantage do CSM have over TM? None, why? Because any extra kills the CSM would get from having a CCW will be negated by the TM being able to shoot at them, not to mention if the CSM player is fighting I4 or higher units the enemy gets to swing no matter what, whereas they don't get to swing back after you shoot them. So yes it does make a difference and yes it does make a difference when your forced to shoot, or not shoot, 103 points worth of models.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also YES don't give non-Relentless models Heavy Weapons. Take weapons that can be used on the move for a squad that, you know, is constantly moving.

And that's the thing you have the option of taking a Heavy Weapon and not moving them, whereas I don't have that option. I HAVE to chew up a heavy support slot to do that, but you can use up your Troops choices to add in more Heavy Weapons to your army.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Two special weapons allow more specialization against specific targets. There's a reason even 6th edition Grey Hunters are several times better than the Tactical Marine, and this is partly why. It doesn't matter your Bolters aren't hurting a tank if you're able to shoot it with 2 Melta Guns (and maybe a Combi-Melta) and charge at the contents inside. The Bolters would've been useless in the five man squad anyway, so that doesn't help your point.

Like I said, it is a gimmicky rule outside of literally two situations I gave. Only one of those is actually competitive in some sort (Skyhammer).

Two special weapons require 10 man squads that 8 bolters shots min wasted per squad up to 16, three times that 24-48 shots, that is a lot of wasted firepower. Those shots can be better used elsewhere. Next people can charge the contents but for CSM to have any real advantage over TM they would have to either swap most of the units Bolt Guns with CCW, or buy CCW and if I buy a CCW plus i'm paying 15 PPM a 10 man squad with 2 meltas is 170 points. So what advantage do CSM have over TM? None, why? Because any extra kills the CSM would get from having a CCW will be negated by the TM being able to shoot at them, not to mention if the CSM player is fighting I4 or higher units the enemy gets to swing no matter what, whereas they don't get to swing back after you shoot them. So yes it does make a difference and yes it does make a difference when your forced to shoot, or not shoot, 103 points worth of models.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also YES don't give non-Relentless models Heavy Weapons. Take weapons that can be used on the move for a squad that, you know, is constantly moving.

And that's the thing you have the option of taking a Heavy Weapon and move them, whereas I don't have that option. I HAVE to chew up a heavy support slot to do that, but you can use up your Troops choices to add in more Heavy Weapons to your army.

Anything a Bolter is shooting at is realistically not the ideal target of a Plasma gun and vice versa. All Bolter shots are wasted with Special OR heavy weapons. The difference is one of them is letting you move consistently.

Also nobody told you that you had to swap the swap the weapons or buy the CCW, though realistically swapping everything and getting Melta Guns and Combi-Melta gives you an okay chance to pop something and charge.

Also if you REALLY want more Heavy Weapons, there's Havocs and Obliterators. A single special weapon in a squad is horrible.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Anything a Bolter is shooting at is realistically not the ideal target of a Plasma gun and vice versa.

Yes that is my point, and yet you keep pointing out that having two Special weapons is super awesome, and I would agree if it was only a 5 man squad but CSM HAVE to take 10 to get 2 special weapons,

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
All Bolter shots are wasted with Special OR heavy weapons. The difference is one of them is letting you move consistently.

No the difference is whether or not you have 9 guys attached or 4. The difference is how much firepower is wasted, with one you waste 56 points, the other is 117 points.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also nobody told you that you had to swap the weapons or buy the CCW, though realistically swapping everything and getting Melta Guns and Combi-Melta gives you an okay chance to pop something and charge.

No the swap/purchase is simply the smart thing to do, since CSM can't fire the Boltgun anyways, CSM are better off with 1 more CC attack then 0 more ranged attacks. That doesn't change the fact that you are in an objectively better position to be able to shoot at a unit, possibly twice, before any CC occurs, reducing the number of models that are going to be able to swing back at you.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also if you REALLY want more Heavy Weapons, there's Havocs and Obliterators. A single special weapon in a squad is horrible.

Yes I realize that but with only 3 HS slots and having to take up 1-2 of them for Havocs to pop transports what does that leave me? 1-2 slots for anti flyer, AV14, and Horde. So you're left wide open in some areas.

On a personal note. Oblits are ugly and I understand there supposed to be, but I don't like that, not my thing. Next thier ugly like the models are supposed to be ugly, but they are an ugly ugly, if that makes any sense. Finally they are SUPER expensive. 70 points for a single 2 wound model, Havocs are 75 to start and have 5 guys and I can have guaranteed shots of what I want.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Anything a Bolter is shooting at is realistically not the ideal target of a Plasma gun and vice versa.

Yes that is my point, and yet you keep pointing out that having two Special weapons is super awesome, and I would agree if it was only a 5 man squad but CSM HAVE to take 10 to get 2 special weapons,

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
All Bolter shots are wasted with Special OR heavy weapons. The difference is one of them is letting you move consistently.

No the difference is whether or not you have 9 guys attached or 4. The difference is how much firepower is wasted, with one you waste 56 points, the other is 117 points.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also nobody told you that you had to swap the weapons or buy the CCW, though realistically swapping everything and getting Melta Guns and Combi-Melta gives you an okay chance to pop something and charge.

No the swap/purchase is simply the smart thing to do, since CSM can't fire the Boltgun anyways, CSM are better off with 1 more CC attack then 0 more ranged attacks. That doesn't change the fact that you are in an objectively better position to be able to shoot at a unit, possibly twice, before any CC occurs, reducing the number of models that are going to be able to swing back at you.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Also if you REALLY want more Heavy Weapons, there's Havocs and Obliterators. A single special weapon in a squad is horrible.

Yes I realize that but with only 3 HS slots and having to take up 1-2 of them for Havocs to pop transports what does that leave me? 1-2 slots for anti flyer, AV14, and Horde. So you're left wide open in some areas.

On a personal note. Oblits are ugly and I understand there supposed to be, but I don't like that, not my thing. Next thier ugly like the models are supposed to be ugly, but they are an ugly ugly, if that makes any sense. Finally they are SUPER expensive. 70 points for a single 2 wound model, Havocs are 75 to start and have 5 guys and I can have guaranteed shots of what I want.

1. Nobody is getting two Specials at 5 dudes unless they're chicks: Sisters. In the meantime popping out of a Rhino (or Pod with Grey Hunters) with two special weapons works well. Tactical Marines don't even get that luxury. Who wants to get out of a Pod with anything but a Grav Cannon? That is an issue with the Grav Cannon, not the Chaos Tactical Marine.

2. You do the same with Tactical Marines at five dudes in the first place and with Chaos Tactical Marines being constantly on the move you aren't buying the Heavy Weapon unless you make bad decisions. Ergo, Combat Squad never comes into play.

3. Anything outside deathstars doesn't really want to be charged by even Berserker Marines. Shame they never make it to combat and are stupid expensive and don't come with Chainaxes standard.

4. You know you can take multiple detachments? Why is this even an issue? Want more Heavy Support slots? Take another HQ (and you were probably grabbing two anyway because that's the best slot we have), get cheap Cultists for objective sitting, and spend away. It isn't rocket science.

Also I don't care if you don't like the Obliterator models. I don't either. Kitbash your own or borrow a friend's like I choose to do.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They're actually not good at any of that. Which is why they're bad. A heavy bolter kills an Ork per turn. One. Lascannons take an eternity to kill MCs and anything AV 12 and above.

Yes, well try bringing more than 1. I'm willing to bet 5 heavy bolters gets some players uneasy, while 5 lascannons would make them think, "no sweat".

Personally, I would much rather see Lascannons to Heavy Bolters, but 1K sons are expensive, and have an invul save.

and a heavy bolters kill 1.33 orks per turn, get 5 and you're killing about 6-7 orks per turn without any kind of augmentation, start adding things like twin-linked which ups it to 8-9 per turn.

Heavy Bolters are in fact significantly superior to Martel's incarnate God, the Scatterlaser, against both my main army (Genestealer Cult) and my main opponent (Dark Eldar).

But Martel's world is inhabited exclusively by MEQ and Craftworld Eldar.

Alcibiades wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They're actually not good at any of that. Which is why they're bad. A heavy bolter kills an Ork per turn. One. Lascannons take an eternity to kill MCs and anything AV 12 and above.

Yes, well try bringing more than 1. I'm willing to bet 5 heavy bolters gets some players uneasy, while 5 lascannons would make them think, "no sweat".

Personally, I would much rather see Lascannons to Heavy Bolters, but 1K sons are expensive, and have an invul save.

and a heavy bolters kill 1.33 orks per turn, get 5 and you're killing about 6-7 orks per turn without any kind of augmentation, start adding things like twin-linked which ups it to 8-9 per turn.

Heavy Bolters are in fact significantly superior to Martel's incarnate God, the Scatterlaser, against both my main army (Genestealer Cult) and my main opponent (Dark Eldar).

But Martel's world is inhabited exclusively by MEQ and Craftworld Eldar.

No they aren't. S6 can ID any multi wound T3 character, it has an extra shot against all vehicles compared to the Heavy Bolter, and once cover is seen significantly less wounds are inflicted.

Seriously, don't defend the Heavy Bolter. It is always a bad choice.

I feel this thread has really gone everywhere, and could easily be split into multiple threads in one go.

-Merits of anything vs Grav.
-Do you see Tacticals outside of the Gladius?
-Is Combat Squadding an advantage if you never use it outside edge-cases like the Skyhammer?
-Does Chaos work without Forgeworld?

Etc.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

No they aren't. S6 can ID any multi wound T3 character, it has an extra shot against all vehicles compared to the Heavy Bolter, and once cover is seen significantly less wounds are inflicted.

Seriously, don't defend the Heavy Bolter. It is always a bad choice.

Yes, they are, because 5/6 x 3 > 5/6 x 2/3 x 4

And don't tell me what to do.

Alcibiades wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

No they aren't. S6 can ID any multi wound T3 character, it has an extra shot against all vehicles compared to the Heavy Bolter, and once cover is seen significantly less wounds are inflicted.

Seriously, don't defend the Heavy Bolter. It is always a bad choice.

Yes, they are, because 5/6 x 3 > 5/6 x 2/3 x 4

And don't tell me what to do.

That 5/6 literally came from nowhere.

And yes I'm telling you to not defend the Heavy Bolter because it IS a gak choice.

It's not ALWAYS a bad choice. Not when they get rending, which pretty much only happens with sisters but hey. It works for them.

 Roknar wrote:
It's not ALWAYS a bad choice. Not when they get rending, which pretty much only happens with sisters but hey. It works for them.

A Retribution Squad gets 4 Heavy Bolters. On average this is 8 shots and therefore a little over 1 Rending shot.

Not impressed at all.

you guys are arguing with Martel here, he isn't gonna give up and its moot to argue. He is unchanged on his nihilistic view on 40k

Looks like they are talking to slayer to me. The math speaks for itself on imperial heavy weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Alcibiades wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
They're actually not good at any of that. Which is why they're bad. A heavy bolter kills an Ork per turn. One. Lascannons take an eternity to kill MCs and anything AV 12 and above.

Yes, well try bringing more than 1. I'm willing to bet 5 heavy bolters gets some players uneasy, while 5 lascannons would make them think, "no sweat".

Personally, I would much rather see Lascannons to Heavy Bolters, but 1K sons are expensive, and have an invul save.

and a heavy bolters kill 1.33 orks per turn, get 5 and you're killing about 6-7 orks per turn without any kind of augmentation, start adding things like twin-linked which ups it to 8-9 per turn.

Heavy Bolters are in fact significantly superior to Martel's incarnate God, the Scatterlaser, against both my main army (Genestealer Cult) and my main opponent (Dark Eldar).

But Martel's world is inhabited exclusively by MEQ and Craftworld Eldar.

Can't the genestealer cult and de use cover? That neuters the heavy bolter right there. It's almost always better to cause more wounds vs light/mef infantry.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

No they aren't. S6 can ID any multi wound T3 character, it has an extra shot against all vehicles compared to the Heavy Bolter, and once cover is seen significantly less wounds are inflicted.

Seriously, don't defend the Heavy Bolter. It is always a bad choice.

Yes those tyrannical T3 multi-wound models that are the bane of all armies everywhere. What do you mean extra shot? Heavy Bolters have three shots same as Multi-Lasers, and once cover is seen there is no difference in wounds until you hit T4 and T5 and above that there is no difference other then T9 and its marginal at best, not "significant" if you think 16% less wounds is significant then you have another thing coming. There is nothing significant about 8.4 and 10.

...

...

Sorry i was having a flashback of facing T3 multi-wound models, had no solution cause my bolters definitely wont kill them.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

No they aren't. S6 can ID any multi wound T3 character, it has an extra shot against all vehicles compared to the Heavy Bolter, and once cover is seen significantly less wounds are inflicted.

Seriously, don't defend the Heavy Bolter. It is always a bad choice.

Yes those tyrannical T3 multi-wound models that are the bane of all armies everywhere. What do you mean extra shot? Heavy Bolters have three shots same as Multi-Lasers, and once cover is seen there is no difference in wounds until you hit T4 and T5 and above that there is no difference other then T9 and its marginal at best, not "significant" if you think 16% less wounds is significant then you have another thing coming. There is nothing significant about 8.4 and 10.

...

...

Sorry i was having a flashback of facing T3 multi-wound models, had no solution cause my bolters definitely wont kill them.

Multilasers have 3 shots but we were talking about Scatterlasers, which shows you aren't bothering to pay attention to the conversation.

That matters because there's plenty of T3 models with FNP, which shows you're also not thinking outside the box.

You also forget that cover is literally the easiest thing to get for infantry. So you're paying for the AP4 at exchange for lower strength and number of shots. Nobody respects Heavy Bolters for a reason.

OK, I'm going to explain something about Genestealer Cult.

Discounting Genestealers and Aberrants, It is a sea of T3 models with 5+ saves (with possible 6+ FNP admittedly, dependent on proximity to one HQ model). In addition, it is largely an assault army, meaning that I am charging around across territory from point A to point B, deprived of cover saves a lot of the time (especially in overwatch). Thirdly, the two whole models in the army that are T3 multiwound models have usually 20 ablative wounds attached to them. Being able to double them out is of quite secondary importance to chewing through the 20 ablative wounds that you have to do first!

Discounting flamers, the infantry weapon that is most effective at killing this army happens to be -- the bolter. The most effective heavy weapon is -- the heavy bolter. Plasma is a waste (being effectively a bolter than can kill the user!). Grav is nigh useless. Wastes of points you could have spent on... more bolters. It is the army tac marines were made to kill.

Discounting possible light vehicles, the heavy bolter is indeed (marginally, not vastly) superior in this case to the scatter laser, because it has identical chance to wound, minus the armor save (which will matter because the infantry are running around, not sitting in cover), which is not offset by the extra shot.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
It's not ALWAYS a bad choice. Not when they get rending, which pretty much only happens with sisters but hey. It works for them.

A Retribution Squad gets 4 Heavy Bolters. On average this is 8 shots and therefore a little over 1 Rending shot.

Not impressed at all.

In theory, yes, but practice has given me rather different results.

I would have thought ATSKNF was all the evidence needed for why Tacts are better then CSM alone?

Failing that, Chapter tactics for free > Marks any day of the week.

MoT costs point for a 6++, Iron Hands get 6+ FnP for free.
MoK costs points for Rage and Counter Attack, BT get Rage free
MoN costs points for +1T, actually the only good one.
MoS costs points for +1I. Yeah, literally any CT beats this for free.
VOTLW: Paid upgrade for +1Ld and Hatred. Imperial Fist chapter tactics PLUS ATSKNF does the same, from range. Free. Oh, and Dark Angels say Hi!

Also, chapter tactics are not just one effect, they are 2-3 different effects, afforded freely, to an entire army. Meanwhile CSM are paying a premium for some meh USRs or Stat increases (Which would be awesome if free, but since it's paid for, they're meh asf).

It's sad to say that generally speaking, the "Bad" guys in 40K really get shafted in their codexes (CSM, 'nids, Orks, DE)

Alcibiades wrote:
OK, I'm going to explain something about Genestealer Cult.

Discounting Genestealers and Aberrants, It is a sea of T3 models with 5+ saves (with possible 6+ FNP admittedly, dependent on proximity to one HQ model). In addition, it is largely an assault army, meaning that I am charging around across territory from point A to point B, deprived of cover saves a lot of the time (especially in overwatch). Thirdly, the two whole models in the army that are T3 multiwound models have usually 20 ablative wounds attached to them. Being able to double them out is of quite secondary importance to chewing through the 20 ablative wounds that you have to do first!

Discounting flamers, the infantry weapon that is most effective at killing this army happens to be -- the bolter. The most effective heavy weapon is -- the heavy bolter. Plasma is a waste (being effectively a bolter than can kill the user!). Grav is nigh useless. Wastes of points you could have spent on... more bolters. It is the army tac marines were made to kill.

Discounting possible light vehicles, the heavy bolter is indeed (marginally, not vastly) superior in this case to the scatter laser, because it has identical chance to wound, minus the armor save (which will matter because the infantry are running around, not sitting in cover), which is not offset by the extra shot.

I knew that already. But 5++ cover makes the scatterlaser better again. Plus, the scatterlaser is so much better vs the field that your point only matters if tailoring.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Roknar wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
It's not ALWAYS a bad choice. Not when they get rending, which pretty much only happens with sisters but hey. It works for them.

A Retribution Squad gets 4 Heavy Bolters. On average this is 8 shots and therefore a little over 1 Rending shot.

Not impressed at all.

In theory, yes, but practice has given me rather different results.

It probably hasn't, you are likely misrembering the results, or haven't played the list enough.

Alcibiades wrote:
OK, I'm going to explain something about Genestealer Cult.

Discounting Genestealers and Aberrants, It is a sea of T3 models with 5+ saves (with possible 6+ FNP admittedly, dependent on proximity to one HQ model). In addition, it is largely an assault army, meaning that I am charging around across territory from point A to point B, deprived of cover saves a lot of the time (especially in overwatch). Thirdly, the two whole models in the army that are T3 multiwound models have usually 20 ablative wounds attached to them. Being able to double them out is of quite secondary importance to chewing through the 20 ablative wounds that you have to do first!

Discounting flamers, the infantry weapon that is most effective at killing this army happens to be -- the bolter. The most effective heavy weapon is -- the heavy bolter. Plasma is a waste (being effectively a bolter than can kill the user!). Grav is nigh useless. Wastes of points you could have spent on... more bolters. It is the army tac marines were made to kill.

Discounting possible light vehicles, the heavy bolter is indeed (marginally, not vastly) superior in this case to the scatter laser, because it has identical chance to wound, minus the armor save (which will matter because the infantry are running around, not sitting in cover), which is not offset by the extra shot.

You mean the infiltrators that are getting cover or a transport unless you're daft enough to not use either? Or you mean the ones that get recycled?

No, the Heavy Bolter is garbage and has been for years.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Roknar wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
It's not ALWAYS a bad choice. Not when they get rending, which pretty much only happens with sisters but hey. It works for them.

A Retribution Squad gets 4 Heavy Bolters. On average this is 8 shots and therefore a little over 1 Rending shot.

Not impressed at all.

In theory, yes, but practice has given me rather different results.

There's a saying in the Fire Emblem community: PEDM, otherwise known as "Personal Experience Doesn't Matter". This is because nobody cares if your junk waifu character leveled up okay in one game; we are looking at the whole picture and averages.

Bringing the conversation back to CSM, I find it interesting how no one has mentioned icons.
Sure, the Icon of Nurgle is practically useless because everyone and their mum's has Fearless or ATSKNF these days, and I've never had much Luck with an Icon of Flame but (being a Slaaneshi chaos player) I do find being able to give my marines FNP in large blobs does improve their sticking power. Granted, Plague Marines are probably better in this respect, but they can't take heavy weapons and having a durable heavy weapons unit can be a god-send (as my opponents systematically target them in almost every game).

Also, I think it's worth pointing out that with an Icon of Vengeance, you can give Chaos Marines Fearless. Now that has a few limitations so you can't claim our weapons are useless - so avoid contemptor dreads and the like at all costs (unless you have a power fist or melta bombs), but in a unit of say 20 men with Fearless - now that is scary.

My thoughts on combat squads is that they have the potential to be tactically advantageous, but I find that when my opponents do so it just helps me to roll them up quicker. A well placed blastmaster can then wipe out a combat squad, and if you have four or more small squads of Noise Marines armed with the sound cannons then you can rain hell on combat squads, even ones that try to avoid attention at the furthest end of the battlefield. So while I can see the advantages of combat squads, in practice I have never seen them succeed.

The biggest problem with icons is the fact that if the bearer dies the effect stops straight away. Plus they are not cheap in points, not just for the banner its self 4 out of the 5 need you to be marked. I'm not saying they dont have a role but for another 20 points a 10 man slaanesh squad can get a lord whos fearless base and is a damn sight more useful.

Thinking on it thats the problem with a lot of the enterys in the dex.

Thing is, with the sisters it's not just the heavy bolters. You're also firing bolters and with the way the canoness is atm I have her joined with a storm bolter. Those all get rending as well.
I suppose they aren't technically heavy bolters, but as a unit it works.

 Roknar wrote:
Thing is, with the sisters it's not just the heavy bolters. You're also firing bolters and with the way the canoness is atm I have her joined with a storm bolter. Those all get rending as well.
I suppose they aren't technically heavy bolters, but as a unit it works.

That's critical information, and those bolters will generate way more rends than the heavy bolters, especially as they are not snap shot on the move. But even that has only a fraction of the efficacy of the IG casting misfortune.




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 Drakeslayer wrote:
Bringing the conversation back to CSM, I find it interesting how no one has mentioned icons.
Sure, the Icon of Nurgle is practically useless because everyone and their mum's has Fearless or ATSKNF these days, and I've never had much Luck with an Icon of Flame but (being a Slaaneshi chaos player) I do find being able to give my marines FNP in large blobs does improve their sticking power. Granted, Plague Marines are probably better in this respect, but they can't take heavy weapons and having a durable heavy weapons unit can be a god-send (as my opponents systematically target them in almost every game).

Also, I think it's worth pointing out that with an Icon of Vengeance, you can give Chaos Marines Fearless. Now that has a few limitations so you can't claim our weapons are useless - so avoid contemptor dreads and the like at all costs (unless you have a power fist or melta bombs), but in a unit of say 20 men with Fearless - now that is scary.

My thoughts on combat squads is that they have the potential to be tactically advantageous, but I find that when my opponents do so it just helps me to roll them up quicker. A well placed blastmaster can then wipe out a combat squad, and if you have four or more small squads of Noise Marines armed with the sound cannons then you can rain hell on combat squads, even ones that try to avoid attention at the furthest end of the battlefield. So while I can see the advantages of combat squads, in practice I have never seen them succeed.

Marines and CSM both are plagued by concepts that don't work. It's just that marines get more free stuff, free buffs, and grav to make up the difference. That's why BA play more like CSM than loyalists.