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tneva82 wrote:

Only time it needs to do that is if 40k is story. It's not. Never been. It's SETTING to allow players to MAKE THEIR OWN STORIES!

Changing setting means players either can't use ANYTHING GW publishesh or their stories gets wiped out constantly. Making player stories as meaningless as in AOS

Your stories are already meaningless, no matter what your special snowflake army does on backwaters planet X the Imperium will still fall.

tneva82 wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

The plot needs to advance and GW have painted themselves into a corner. The End Times are the only solution. Not a good solution, but the only one.

No...it...doesn't.

Only time it needs to do that is if 40k is story. It's not. Never been. It's SETTING to allow players to MAKE THEIR OWN STORIES!

Changing setting means players either can't use ANYTHING GW publishesh or their stories gets wiped out constantly. Making player stories as meaningless as in AOS(where GW also made another screwup by deliberately designing it so that nobody CAN win. It's endless stalemate).

Setting has to advance is myth by those who can't separate story and setting.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 StupidYellow wrote:
The Lion would probably wait like he did before. He's probably the least Damaging of the Primarchs Imperial side to do anything massively plot influence wise.

S.Y.

Yeah. He's just civil war quaranteed unless GW wants to break up all core concepts of 40k by plotholing it.

Players making their own stories will still happen for people who enjoy that aspect of 40k(which not everyone does, I don't care to write fluff and gameplay has always been more influenced by fluff than representative of it to me.), regardless. I mean, they completely nuked fantasy and people are still making their own fantasy stories, adding the primarchs back in will be like changing you desktop background to something really in your face, and that's the worst case.

Requizen wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

The plot needs to advance and GW have painted themselves into a corner. The End Times are the only solution. Not a good solution, but the only one.

No...it...doesn't.

Only time it needs to do that is if 40k is story. It's not. Never been. It's SETTING to allow players to MAKE THEIR OWN STORIES!

Changing setting means players either can't use ANYTHING GW publishesh or their stories gets wiped out constantly. Making player stories as meaningless as in AOS(where GW also made another screwup by deliberately designing it so that nobody CAN win. It's endless stalemate).

Setting has to advance is myth by those who can't separate story and setting.

The other side of the coin is this:
"Setting cannot advance without breaking everything" is a myth by those who cannot accept change.

There's always two sides, neither more correct than the other. A setting doesn't have to change. But it can, and that's what's happening. It's not intrinsically a good or bad thing, it's just a thing that is.

That's simply not true. Tau altered the game, and although Fish of Frenzy was popular it was beatable.

There's a difference between adding a Character who rebuilt everything after a massive civil war. Just goes all you little people who fought yeah your stories mean Jack now I'm back. It changes the plot from your Captain fighting to him fighting. I'm not keen on Abaddon as honestly he's pathetically just limped along. They had to rewrite stuff just so he actually look like he accomplished anything.


And adding a race which adds a new gameplay and tactic. Adding an individual who takes over and steers the plot changes everything.

Change is fine. New races fine, New heroes ? Okay fine . Would you accept Horus returning?
I mean it be interesting but rather silly.

 StupidYellow wrote:

Requizen wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

The plot needs to advance and GW have painted themselves into a corner. The End Times are the only solution. Not a good solution, but the only one.

No...it...doesn't.

Only time it needs to do that is if 40k is story. It's not. Never been. It's SETTING to allow players to MAKE THEIR OWN STORIES!

Changing setting means players either can't use ANYTHING GW publishesh or their stories gets wiped out constantly. Making player stories as meaningless as in AOS(where GW also made another screwup by deliberately designing it so that nobody CAN win. It's endless stalemate).

Setting has to advance is myth by those who can't separate story and setting.

The other side of the coin is this:
"Setting cannot advance without breaking everything" is a myth by those who cannot accept change.

There's always two sides, neither more correct than the other. A setting doesn't have to change. But it can, and that's what's happening. It's not intrinsically a good or bad thing, it's just a thing that is.

That's simply not true. Tau altered the game, and although Fish of Frenzy was popular it was beatable.

There's a difference between adding a Character who rebuilt everything after a massive civil war. Just goes all you little people who fought yeah your stories mean Jack now I'm back. It changes the plot from your Captain fighting to him fighting. I'm not keen on Abaddon as honestly he's pathetically just limped along. They had to rewrite stuff just so he actually look like he accomplished anything.


And adding a race which adds a new gameplay and tactic. Adding an individual who takes over and steers the plot changes everything.

Change is fine. New races fine, New heroes ? Okay fine . Would you accept Horus returning?
I mean it be interesting but rather silly.

Horus is coming back? THAT'S AWESOME! Go for it!

 StupidYellow wrote:

Requizen wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

The plot needs to advance and GW have painted themselves into a corner. The End Times are the only solution. Not a good solution, but the only one.

No...it...doesn't.

Only time it needs to do that is if 40k is story. It's not. Never been. It's SETTING to allow players to MAKE THEIR OWN STORIES!

Changing setting means players either can't use ANYTHING GW publishesh or their stories gets wiped out constantly. Making player stories as meaningless as in AOS(where GW also made another screwup by deliberately designing it so that nobody CAN win. It's endless stalemate).

Setting has to advance is myth by those who can't separate story and setting.

The other side of the coin is this:
"Setting cannot advance without breaking everything" is a myth by those who cannot accept change.

There's always two sides, neither more correct than the other. A setting doesn't have to change. But it can, and that's what's happening. It's not intrinsically a good or bad thing, it's just a thing that is.

That's simply not true. Tau altered the game, and although Fish of Frenzy was popular it was beatable.

There's a difference between adding a Character who rebuilt everything after a massive civil war. Just goes all you little people who fought yeah your stories mean Jack now I'm back. It changes the plot from your Captain fighting to him fighting. I'm not keen on Abaddon as honestly he's pathetically just limped along. They had to rewrite stuff just so he actually look like he accomplished anything.


And adding a race which adds a new gameplay and tactic. Adding an individual who takes over and steers the plot changes everything.

Change is fine. New races fine, New heroes ? Okay fine . Would you accept Horus returning?
I mean it be interesting but rather silly.

Please give me an example of how a Primarch returning will ruin everything for anybody. GW is not going to come to your door with a gun and force you to use a Primarch in your Space Marine army.

If you don't have any sort of actual specific situation you have in mind, then it is, by definition, baseless fearmongering.

 Vankraken wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
True or not, I don't think it's unlikely at all for the lion to return and if wrath of Magnus is any indication, he would come with a campaign book of goodies.
All I'm praying for is that they turn 40k into a threeway battle with the return of the primarchs. They weren't terribly amused about the high lords of terra even way back when. For a cluesless primarch to return right now and look at the imperium, it would look an awful lot like Horus was right after all. Of course looking at the misshapen abominations that so many legionnaires have become, not to mention being mindless slaves to their gods, they might think that serving the chaos gods might not be the solution either lol

Normally I am not a fan of the whole Primarch concept because its a bit too hero focused and relegates the common man (including all the elite things like space marines, nobz, lychguard, etc) to being irrelevant. That said if we get a renegade side with Konrad Curze having faked his death to be the Primarch version of batman against both sides then ill at least be interested in seeing how things develop

Exactky, It completely remove the grimdark aspect of 40k and turns it into a manga. It's a very unfortunate development

 lord_blackfang wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

Only time it needs to do that is if 40k is story. It's not. Never been. It's SETTING to allow players to MAKE THEIR OWN STORIES!

Changing setting means players either can't use ANYTHING GW publishesh or their stories gets wiped out constantly. Making player stories as meaningless as in AOS

Your stories are already meaningless, no matter what your special snowflake army does on backwaters planet X the Imperium will still fall.

Exactly this.... Warhammer 40k was never about the "End Times" of the universe

It was always about the "End Times" of the Imperium...Humantiy is at the brink of destruction, 2 minutes to midnight.... no matter what SM chapters, or the imperial guard achieve on the battlefield, once the Emperor dies and the golden throne fails, Chaos will take over

Bringing loyalist primarchs back will not really change the fact. I don't see it "ruining" the setting

 streetsamurai wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
True or not, I don't think it's unlikely at all for the lion to return and if wrath of Magnus is any indication, he would come with a campaign book of goodies.
All I'm praying for is that they turn 40k into a threeway battle with the return of the primarchs. They weren't terribly amused about the high lords of terra even way back when. For a cluesless primarch to return right now and look at the imperium, it would look an awful lot like Horus was right after all. Of course looking at the misshapen abominations that so many legionnaires have become, not to mention being mindless slaves to their gods, they might think that serving the chaos gods might not be the solution either lol

Normally I am not a fan of the whole Primarch concept because its a bit too hero focused and relegates the common man (including all the elite things like space marines, nobz, lychguard, etc) to being irrelevant. That said if we get a renegade side with Konrad Curze having faked his death to be the Primarch version of batman against both sides then ill at least be interested in seeing how things develop

Exactky, It completely remove the grimdark aspect of 40k and turns it into a manga. It's a very unfortunate development

Again, how? One man, even a Primarch, is a blip in the face of the full power of Chaos. Heck, Dorn got beaten/killed (depending on retcons) by just a bunch of Word Bearers.

They're heroes to follow, for sure, but so are Logan, Dante, and Calgar. All of them are looked on in the same light as Primarchs in the 41st millennium - are they an "unfortunate development"?

MongooseMatt wrote:

 Silent Puffin? wrote:


You mean like how warhammer players are still fighting Beastmen in the great forest?

Certainly nothing to stop them. Meanwhile, Beastmen are still being fought in forests round our way in Age of Sigmar...

Always sad to see some beastmens. Really liked the concept, the fluff and the minis, and always wanted to have an army. Ordered 500$ worth of them a few days before AOS dropped. After seing what a disaster the rule were, I quickly cancelled the order

 Crimson wrote:

 kronk wrote:

Read this from Crimson: "GW already made an entire game to cater to people who want to use Primarchs. Why do we need them in 40K too? They obviously fit in 30K but they utterly ruin the theme of 40K."

Crimson specifically talking about the GAME of 30k is where Primarchs should stay and that Primarchs in the GAME of 40k ruins his theme.

Yes, THEME! I was talking about fluff. The fluff of the game is part of the game. I have no problem with powerful models per se, I think Daemon Primarchs getting models is cool

So what was that about calling people out and making sure you're in the right?

Foot meet mouth.

Requizen wrote:

 streetsamurai wrote:

 Vankraken wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
True or not, I don't think it's unlikely at all for the lion to return and if wrath of Magnus is any indication, he would come with a campaign book of goodies.
All I'm praying for is that they turn 40k into a threeway battle with the return of the primarchs. They weren't terribly amused about the high lords of terra even way back when. For a cluesless primarch to return right now and look at the imperium, it would look an awful lot like Horus was right after all. Of course looking at the misshapen abominations that so many legionnaires have become, not to mention being mindless slaves to their gods, they might think that serving the chaos gods might not be the solution either lol

Normally I am not a fan of the whole Primarch concept because its a bit too hero focused and relegates the common man (including all the elite things like space marines, nobz, lychguard, etc) to being irrelevant. That said if we get a renegade side with Konrad Curze having faked his death to be the Primarch version of batman against both sides then ill at least be interested in seeing how things develop

Exactky, It completely remove the grimdark aspect of 40k and turns it into a manga. It's a very unfortunate development

Again, how? One man, even a Primarch, is a blip in the face of the full power of Chaos. Heck, Dorn got beaten/killed (depending on retcons) by just a bunch of Word Bearers.

They're heroes to follow, for sure, but so are Logan, Dante, and Calgar. All of them are looked on in the same light as Primarchs in the 41st millennium - are they an "unfortunate development"?

No they aren't. They are vastly superior power wise than the current upper tiered human. They won't bring back the primarch only to make them similar to chapter masters power wise. The scale of power just went up in the game, and it makes the little guy more irrevelent.

Why do people continue to treat time as a 2d object... just because GW is moving forward doesn't mean it's going to end. There is an infinite amount of time in between seconds on a clock, so GW can create infinite more stories during the end times.

kronk wrote:

LightKing wrote:
People just want the fluff to advance, we literally been at the same point since the 80s

Not everyone does. There is plenty of gak between the year 30,000 and 40,000 that they can cover.

Yes their is plenty of stories to be told, but they are not. It's almost the same story being told over and over again. So after 30 years of this, it's time to move it forward. I think it's too late now to tell those stories that "could have been told but didn't".

I am sorry, I am tired of the Imperium of Man, be it human, Imperial Guard/Astra Millitarium, Space Marines, Inquitision, are on the brink, but manage to survie, but are still 5 minutes or 1 minute to midnight now. So all the stories that "could have been told" basically mean nothing now. After 30 years, I know I don't care for stories that could have been told and mean nothing. I rather see stories that can be told that mean something and can make a difference now.

That is just my opinion, I am not saying people who think the 40K storyline shouldn't change are wrong. I just think differently than they do.

 streetsamurai wrote:

Requizen wrote:


Again, how? One man, even a Primarch, is a blip in the face of the full power of Chaos. Heck, Dorn got beaten/killed (depending on retcons) by just a bunch of Word Bearers.

They're heroes to follow, for sure, but so are Logan, Dante, and Calgar. All of them are looked on in the same light as Primarchs in the 41st millennium - are they an "unfortunate development"?

No they aren't. They are vastly superior power wise than the current upper tiered human. They won't bring back the primarch only to make them similar to chapter masters power wise. The scale of power just went up in the game, and it makes the little guy more irrevelent.

I think we, as a thread, need to be clear if we're talking about fluff or tabletop mechanics.

In the fluff, there's little difference to most people in the universe. Dante is 1100 years old and instagibbed Skarbrand. He's basically a god to most people who know his legacy. There's little difference between the powerful/legendary Chapter Masters and a Primarch fluff-wise.

On the tabletop - it's just a shift. I have no doubt they'll be awesome, but there's plenty of things out there that can kill even 30k Primarchs without too much trouble. It seems odd to complain about Primarchs messing up the scale of power when Destroyer Weapons, Stomp, GCs/SHVs, and some of the more insane psychic powers exist in the game. The balance is already borked, a Primarch is just a new hammer. Imperial armies may even just ignore them because Deathstars are too good and fitting another expensive character is hard.

Requizen wrote:

 StupidYellow wrote:

Requizen wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

The plot needs to advance and GW have painted themselves into a corner. The End Times are the only solution. Not a good solution, but the only one.

No...it...doesn't.

Only time it needs to do that is if 40k is story. It's not. Never been. It's SETTING to allow players to MAKE THEIR OWN STORIES!

Changing setting means players either can't use ANYTHING GW publishesh or their stories gets wiped out constantly. Making player stories as meaningless as in AOS(where GW also made another screwup by deliberately designing it so that nobody CAN win. It's endless stalemate).

Setting has to advance is myth by those who can't separate story and setting.

The other side of the coin is this:
"Setting cannot advance without breaking everything" is a myth by those who cannot accept change.

There's always two sides, neither more correct than the other. A setting doesn't have to change. But it can, and that's what's happening. It's not intrinsically a good or bad thing, it's just a thing that is.

That's simply not true. Tau altered the game, and although Fish of Frenzy was popular it was beatable.

There's a difference between adding a Character who rebuilt everything after a massive civil war. Just goes all you little people who fought yeah your stories mean Jack now I'm back. It changes the plot from your Captain fighting to him fighting. I'm not keen on Abaddon as honestly he's pathetically just limped along. They had to rewrite stuff just so he actually look like he accomplished anything.


And adding a race which adds a new gameplay and tactic. Adding an individual who takes over and steers the plot changes everything.

Change is fine. New races fine, New heroes ? Okay fine . Would you accept Horus returning?
I mean it be interesting but rather silly.

Please give me an example of how a Primarch returning will ruin everything for anybody. GW is not going to come to your door with a gun and force you to use a Primarch in your Space Marine army.

If you don't have any sort of actual specific situation you have in mind, then it is, by definition, baseless fearmongering.

I've already given several but fine if you require them listed

40k at the moment is rather faceless for the odd hero here and there correct? I mean you can take x or y hero but in average games you don't. Right? It's a game of countless battles of basically generic heroes and their entourage.

The plot doesn't revolve around them, nothing for winning or losing save for trying to come up with a new tactic.

If Primarchs return it will be THEIR story not ours. That's fine for a historical setting like 30k .

Nobody is going to force me to play with them of course. I can take my existing force (that's if it will still exist) and get soundly beaten by anyone who fields them. Unless I take a counter which is turning it from My Hero to GWs understand?

The plot possibly is about them, the game will be about them. It's going to be GWs version of Warmachine with Primarchs. That isn't 40k, to me that is not the game I want.

GW of course can do what they like

S.Y.

Requizen wrote:

 streetsamurai wrote:

Requizen wrote:


Again, how? One man, even a Primarch, is a blip in the face of the full power of Chaos. Heck, Dorn got beaten/killed (depending on retcons) by just a bunch of Word Bearers.

They're heroes to follow, for sure, but so are Logan, Dante, and Calgar. All of them are looked on in the same light as Primarchs in the 41st millennium - are they an "unfortunate development"?

No they aren't. They are vastly superior power wise than the current upper tiered human. They won't bring back the primarch only to make them similar to chapter masters power wise. The scale of power just went up in the game, and it makes the little guy more irrevelent.

I think we, as a thread, need to be clear if we're talking about fluff or tabletop mechanics.

In the fluff, there's little difference to most people in the universe. Dante is 1100 years old and instagibbed Skarbrand. He's basically a god to most people who know his legacy. There's little difference between the powerful/legendary Chapter Masters and a Primarch fluff-wise.

On the tabletop - it's just a shift. I have no doubt they'll be awesome, but there's plenty of things out there that can kill even 30k Primarchs without too much trouble. It seems odd to complain about Primarchs messing up the scale of power when Destroyer Weapons, Stomp, GCs/SHVs, and some of the more insane psychic powers exist in the game. The balance is already borked, a Primarch is just a new hammer. Imperial armies may even just ignore them because Deathstars are too good and fitting another expensive character is hard.

we haven't been reading the same fluff then. Sure there is some part that make it seems that chapter master are equal to primarch (The Draigo Mortarion stupidity comes to mind), but for the most part, Primarchs are considered vastly more powerfull in the fluff.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 StupidYellow wrote:

Requizen wrote:

 StupidYellow wrote:

Requizen wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 lord_blackfang wrote:

The plot needs to advance and GW have painted themselves into a corner. The End Times are the only solution. Not a good solution, but the only one.

No...it...doesn't.

Only time it needs to do that is if 40k is story. It's not. Never been. It's SETTING to allow players to MAKE THEIR OWN STORIES!

Changing setting means players either can't use ANYTHING GW publishesh or their stories gets wiped out constantly. Making player stories as meaningless as in AOS(where GW also made another screwup by deliberately designing it so that nobody CAN win. It's endless stalemate).

Setting has to advance is myth by those who can't separate story and setting.

The other side of the coin is this:
"Setting cannot advance without breaking everything" is a myth by those who cannot accept change.

There's always two sides, neither more correct than the other. A setting doesn't have to change. But it can, and that's what's happening. It's not intrinsically a good or bad thing, it's just a thing that is.

That's simply not true. Tau altered the game, and although Fish of Frenzy was popular it was beatable.

There's a difference between adding a Character who rebuilt everything after a massive civil war. Just goes all you little people who fought yeah your stories mean Jack now I'm back. It changes the plot from your Captain fighting to him fighting. I'm not keen on Abaddon as honestly he's pathetically just limped along. They had to rewrite stuff just so he actually look like he accomplished anything.


And adding a race which adds a new gameplay and tactic. Adding an individual who takes over and steers the plot changes everything.

Change is fine. New races fine, New heroes ? Okay fine . Would you accept Horus returning?
I mean it be interesting but rather silly.

Please give me an example of how a Primarch returning will ruin everything for anybody. GW is not going to come to your door with a gun and force you to use a Primarch in your Space Marine army.

If you don't have any sort of actual specific situation you have in mind, then it is, by definition, baseless fearmongering.

I've already given several but fine if you require them listed

40k at the moment is rather faceless for the odd hero here and there correct? I mean you can take x or y hero but in average games you don't. Right? It's a game of countless battles of basically generic heroes and their entourage.

The plot doesn't revolve around them, nothing for winning or losing save for trying to come up with a new tactic.

If Primarchs return it will be THEIR story not ours. That's fine for a historical setting like 30k .

Nobody is going to force me to play with them of course. I can take my existing force (that's if it will still exist) and get soundly beaten by anyone who fields them. Unless I take a counter which is turning it from My Hero to GWs understand?

The plot possibly is about them, the game will be about them. It's going to be GWs version of Warmachine with Primarchs. That isn't 40k, to me that is not the game I want.

GW of course can do what they like

S.Y.

Couldn't say it any better. They are not retunring the primarch to make them wingmans. They will now be the central protagonist of the story. They will be much more present than any of the chapter masters or SC currently are. (bar maybe abadadon) Which will make for a very boring setting imo.

StupidYellow wrote:
I've already given several but fine if you require them listed

40k at the moment is rather faceless for the odd hero here and there correct? I mean you can take x or y hero but in average games you don't. Right? It's a game of countless battles of basically generic heroes and their entourage.

The plot doesn't revolve around them, nothing for winning or losing save for trying to come up with a new tactic.

If Primarchs return it will be THEIR story not ours. That's fine for a historical setting like 30k .

Nobody is going to force me to play with them of course. I can take my existing force (that's if it will still exist) and get soundly beaten by anyone who fields them. Unless I take a counter which is turning it from My Hero to GWs understand?

The plot possibly is about them, the game will be about them. It's going to be GWs version of Warmachine with Primarchs. That isn't 40k, to me that is not the game I want.

GW of course can do what they like

S.Y.

40k is in no way faceless. All you need to do is open a codex or read a campaign to know that. Even Raven Guard, who are a minor founding chapter in the scheme of things, have multiple named characters who are referenced in the fluff and played major parts in Warzone: Damocles. The fact that there are dozens of unique characters around whom the plot revolves around already means it's not faceless. If you play Space Marines and the actions of Calgar don't mean anything to you, why should the actions of Guilliman? That was the point of breaking up the Legions in the lore as it was - that one man could not control that many soldiers at once.

If you read any of the Black Library books or even the fluff sections of the codices, you know that it's already not your setting. Abbadon is launching Black Crusades. Logan is leading the defenses around Fenris and the Eye. Calgar is leading the forces of Ultramar in his sector. Imotekh is the driving force behind most of the Necrons actions across the galaxy. Eldrad is basically the only Eldar that does anything anymore, though other ones get their time in the limelight. Hell, even the Swarmlord is a face for the Tyranid army, which is about as close to faceless as you can get - when it's a massive Tyranid action or invasion, it's because the Swarmlord is there controlling things.

The setting already belongs to a bunch of characters across different factions. Adding a few more that are higher up on the totem pole means nothing in the long run.

streetsamurai wrote:

Requizen wrote:

 streetsamurai wrote:

Requizen wrote:


Again, how? One man, even a Primarch, is a blip in the face of the full power of Chaos. Heck, Dorn got beaten/killed (depending on retcons) by just a bunch of Word Bearers.

They're heroes to follow, for sure, but so are Logan, Dante, and Calgar. All of them are looked on in the same light as Primarchs in the 41st millennium - are they an "unfortunate development"?

No they aren't. They are vastly superior power wise than the current upper tiered human. They won't bring back the primarch only to make them similar to chapter masters power wise. The scale of power just went up in the game, and it makes the little guy more irrevelent.

I think we, as a thread, need to be clear if we're talking about fluff or tabletop mechanics.

In the fluff, there's little difference to most people in the universe. Dante is 1100 years old and instagibbed Skarbrand. He's basically a god to most people who know his legacy. There's little difference between the powerful/legendary Chapter Masters and a Primarch fluff-wise.

On the tabletop - it's just a shift. I have no doubt they'll be awesome, but there's plenty of things out there that can kill even 30k Primarchs without too much trouble. It seems odd to complain about Primarchs messing up the scale of power when Destroyer Weapons, Stomp, GCs/SHVs, and some of the more insane psychic powers exist in the game. The balance is already borked, a Primarch is just a new hammer. Imperial armies may even just ignore them because Deathstars are too good and fitting another expensive character is hard.

we haven't been reading the same fluff then. Sure there is some part that make it seems that chapter master are equal to primarch (The Draigo Mortarion stupidity comes to mind), but for the most part, Primarchs are considered vastly more powerfull in the fluff.

Of course they are more powerful, but to the average mook there's no difference. A Primarch returning isn't going to herald the end of the Imperium, for most Imperial Citizens it just means someone else is calling the shots. See above. They might be stronger as a person and smarter, but that means nothing for the overall workings of the 40k galaxy. It just changes who is leading the forces. And there already are superhuman characters calling the shots.

So there's no actual rumor to discuss right? It was proven false?

Requizen wrote:

StupidYellow wrote:
I've already given several but fine if you require them listed

40k at the moment is rather faceless for the odd hero here and there correct? I mean you can take x or y hero but in average games you don't. Right? It's a game of countless battles of basically generic heroes and their entourage.

The plot doesn't revolve around them, nothing for winning or losing save for trying to come up with a new tactic.

If Primarchs return it will be THEIR story not ours. That's fine for a historical setting like 30k .

Nobody is going to force me to play with them of course. I can take my existing force (that's if it will still exist) and get soundly beaten by anyone who fields them. Unless I take a counter which is turning it from My Hero to GWs understand?

The plot possibly is about them, the game will be about them. It's going to be GWs version of Warmachine with Primarchs. That isn't 40k, to me that is not the game I want.

GW of course can do what they like

S.Y.

40k is in no way faceless. All you need to do is open a codex or read a campaign to know that. Even Raven Guard, who are a minor founding chapter in the scheme of things, have multiple named characters who are referenced in the fluff and played major parts in Warzone: Damocles. The fact that there are dozens of unique characters around whom the plot revolves around already means it's not faceless. If you play Space Marines and the actions of Calgar don't mean anything to you, why should the actions of Guilliman? That was the point of breaking up the Legions in the lore as it was - that one man could not control that many soldiers at once.

If you read any of the Black Library books or even the fluff sections of the codices, you know that it's already not your setting. Abbadon is launching Black Crusades. Logan is leading the defenses around Fenris and the Eye. Calgar is leading the forces of Ultramar in his sector. Imotekh is the driving force behind most of the Necrons actions across the galaxy. Eldrad is basically the only Eldar that does anything anymore, though other ones get their time in the limelight. Hell, even the Swarmlord is a face for the Tyranid army, which is about as close to faceless as you can get - when it's a massive Tyranid action or invasion, it's because the Swarmlord is there controlling things.

The setting already belongs to a bunch of characters across different factions. Adding a few more that are higher up on the totem pole means nothing in the long run.

streetsamurai wrote:

Requizen wrote:

 streetsamurai wrote:

Requizen wrote:


Again, how? One man, even a Primarch, is a blip in the face of the full power of Chaos. Heck, Dorn got beaten/killed (depending on retcons) by just a bunch of Word Bearers.

They're heroes to follow, for sure, but so are Logan, Dante, and Calgar. All of them are looked on in the same light as Primarchs in the 41st millennium - are they an "unfortunate development"?

No they aren't. They are vastly superior power wise than the current upper tiered human. They won't bring back the primarch only to make them similar to chapter masters power wise. The scale of power just went up in the game, and it makes the little guy more irrevelent.

I think we, as a thread, need to be clear if we're talking about fluff or tabletop mechanics.

In the fluff, there's little difference to most people in the universe. Dante is 1100 years old and instagibbed Skarbrand. He's basically a god to most people who know his legacy. There's little difference between the powerful/legendary Chapter Masters and a Primarch fluff-wise.

On the tabletop - it's just a shift. I have no doubt they'll be awesome, but there's plenty of things out there that can kill even 30k Primarchs without too much trouble. It seems odd to complain about Primarchs messing up the scale of power when Destroyer Weapons, Stomp, GCs/SHVs, and some of the more insane psychic powers exist in the game. The balance is already borked, a Primarch is just a new hammer. Imperial armies may even just ignore them because Deathstars are too good and fitting another expensive character is hard.

we haven't been reading the same fluff then. Sure there is some part that make it seems that chapter master are equal to primarch (The Draigo Mortarion stupidity comes to mind), but for the most part, Primarchs are considered vastly more powerfull in the fluff.

Of course they are more powerful, but to the average mook there's no difference. A Primarch returning isn't going to herald the end of the Imperium, for most Imperial Citizens it just means someone else is calling the shots. See above. They might be stronger as a person and smarter, but that means nothing for the overall workings of the 40k galaxy. It just changes who is leading the forces. And there already are superhuman characters calling the shots.

at the end of the day, there's always some heros/superhumans in every setting and story (even in real life, some guy can squat up to 11 plates, while a very strong dude can only squat 5. That's almost surhuman). The difference is the power scale between these heros and the average mook. THe introduction of primarchs up the power scale, and makes the game eer more toward superheroes than it is presently. And you can bet that if they re-introduce them, they'll be central to any plot/development in the future. You can be happy with this development, but saying that it doesn't dramatically change the setting of 40k is silly imo.


THe reapparition of the primarchs is as earth shattering in 40k as the reapparition of Jesus (if such a guy ever existed) would be in our current society.

 streetsamurai wrote:

at the end of the day, there's always some heros/superhumans in every setting and story (even in real life, some guy can squat up to 11 plates, while a very strong dude can only squat 5. That's almost surhuman). The difference is the power scale between these heros and the average mook. THe introduction of primarchs up the power scale, and makes the game eer more toward superheroes than it is presently. And you can bet that if they re-introduce them, they'll be central to any plot/development in the futre. You can be happy with this development, but saying that it doesn't dramatically change the setting of 40k is silly imo.

That's an extremely strange way of looking at it. The difference between a regular human and a Space Marine is already like a child vs a bodybuilder, and there are plenty of things in the game that make Marines look like mooks. Even Custodes and Grey Knights supposedly make your average Space Marine seem a joke in comparison. And if you look outside of humans, there are dozens of things that go beyond that from the Xenos, Chaotic, or mechanical side of things.

Primarchs will do nothing to the level of power that hasn't already been done to the game itself.

THe reapparition of the primarchs is as earth shattering in 40k as the reapparition of Jesus (if such a guy ever existed) would be in our current society.

Disagree completely. The Primarchs were around for a long time after the Heresy ended and the galaxy was in a pretty crappy place then. You're more thinking of the Emperor coming back.

it's been stated numerously in the fluff that the difference between a regular marine and a primarch is the same as the difference between a regular marine and a regular space marine. There's actually no human alive (or not MIA) that come close to the power of a primarch in the fluff. Denying it is strange.

No the reapparition if the emperor would be like God coming on earth (jesus is not god in multiple religions)

I don't get why many people are against advancing the fluff....

many people want GW to move foward,

It's not like you have to like it or "accept it" in your headcannon, but many people do want the primarchs to come back in some form

 streetsamurai wrote:
it's been stated numerously in the fluff that the difference between a regular marine and a primarch is the same as the difference between a regular marine and a regular space marine. There's actually no human alive (or not MIA) that come close to the power of a primarch in the fluff. Denying it is strange.

And there are plenty of things and characters already in the game that are at or above that power level. And the power level fluctuates basically on a book-by-book basis (Skarbrand, Avatar of Khaine, Swarmlord, etc) that the Primarchs will probably find something as strong as them in a day. Heck, look at the recent Beast Arises series, where an Ork Warboss nearly fights Vulkan (an actual Primarch) to a standstill.

It literally doesn't matter that the average human is getting more insignificant because they already were. But the game has never been about the average human.

Requizen wrote:

 streetsamurai wrote:
it's been stated numerously in the fluff that the difference between a regular marine and a primarch is the same as the difference between a regular marine and a regular space marine. There's actually no human alive (or not MIA) that come close to the power of a primarch in the fluff. Denying it is strange.

And there are plenty of things and characters already in the game that are at or above that power level. And the power level fluctuates basically on a book-by-book basis (Skarbrand, Avatar of Khaine, Swarmlord, etc) that the Primarchs will probably find something as strong as them in a day. Heck, look at the recent Beast Arises series, where an Ork Warboss nearly fights Vulkan (an actual Primarch) to a standstill.

It literally doesn't matter that the average human is getting more insignificant because they already were. But the game has never been about the average human.

wait thats confusing


shouldn't that read the differnece between a primarch and a regular astarte is the difference between a astarte and a regular man?

So have the rumour run it's course now since we are talking about how a Primarch should be game wise and we are not discussing rumours now?

Davor wrote:
So have the rumour run it's course now since we are talking about how a Primarch should be game wise and we are not discussing rumours now?

Yeah this thread is basically over save for whining.

Requizen wrote:

Davor wrote:
So have the rumour run it's course now since we are talking about how a Primarch should be game wise and we are not discussing rumours now?

Yeah this thread is basically over save for whining.

It's been complete bull since the first page, not sure what you expected 5 pages in. Some people just don't understand what News and Rumours means.

Requizen wrote:

Davor wrote:
So have the rumour run it's course now since we are talking about how a Primarch should be game wise and we are not discussing rumours now?

Yeah this thread is basically over save for whining.

Nice.

I have a genuine concern 40k is going to be Primarchammer and that is whining?

fine.

I really dont want to be in a game where i can get blatted in 1 turn by my wolf, mr red, mr lion or whomever. if thats fine for you fine. good.

I hope you enjoy Primarch and friends the wargame.

S.Y.

Neronoxx wrote:

Requizen wrote:

Davor wrote:
So have the rumour run it's course now since we are talking about how a Primarch should be game wise and we are not discussing rumours now?

Yeah this thread is basically over save for whining.

It's been complete bull since the first page, not sure what you expected 5 pages in. Some people just don't understand what News and Rumours means.

I expected it to be locked by now lol.

All this glamouring for plot advancement reminds me of White Wolf's World of Darkness RPGs. Some people were obsessed about the metaplot and demanded WW to advance the plot and bring the end times and have the antediluvians return and whatnot (instead of accepting that it is a setting and creating their own stories in it.) So eventually WW caved, the end times came, it sucked, everyone hated it. The setting was ruined and WW almost bankrupted. They rebooted the whole thing, but the new version never become nearly as popular as the old setting.