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 mrhappyface wrote:

 Huron black heart wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
Think about it this way: when you or any of your friends first strarted playing warhammer, did any of you know/care about the HH?
I for one have never met anyone who started off playing 30k then transitioned to 40k. People learn about 40k first, then they start playing a few games, then they start looking into the fluff of 40k and that is when they even notice there is a 30k.

And what about the people who play Xenos? They might find 30k interesting but it has nothing to do with their army and wouldn't affect them if the HH didn't even happen.

As a game 30k didnt exist until very recently, I think epic was loosely supposed to based on the heresy but it also ended up being 40k (I could be wrong on that one)

My point still stands that most, if not all, new players to 40k have probably never heard of the HH

I completely agree. There are tons of people out that that don't care about background history at all or have been playing the game for years and are slowly getting into the "history". The 30k fluff might be interesting for people who are playing one of the original chapters, but even then I doubt that most SM players have heard anything about 30k other than "there were those super-powered primarchs for each chapter" and "models looked a bit different". Would those not have gotten into the game or quit playing if they hadn't have had deeper background lore? doubtful.

I started playing around 02. I only knew of the HH in that it happened and the names of the primarchs. I loved the game then and don't care too much for the HH stuff now. I read a few of the books but lost interest after I saw how many novels there are and the ones I read were hit or miss. The primarchs, instead of being these alpha dog leaders and the pinnacles of humanity, came across as vain children with petty rivalries and daddy issues to me. I like the 30k models and the old-school aesthetics of the models, but that's about it. I think it cheapens the myth and images of the primarchs.
I think they should just leave the primarchs where they are. Leave the 2 lost legions as lost. None of these vague notions of "Oh SW clearly wiped out the other legions and Ultramarines actually absorbed some of them!" bs. 40k is a setting and it had stayed that way for years. Now, there are all kinds of rumors that the primarchs will be making a return to the tt and Magnus is just the first.

I guess that turned into a bit of a rant, but that's my two cents.

The unknown has more appeal to me, are the Alpha legion good guys or bad? I don't really want to know the answer as I enjoy discussing the question. To me, the Horus Heresy books have answered too many questions.

40k is already 90% Space Marines battling Space Marines. A catalogue that is 90% Space Marines and those other Imperial guys and gals who aren't as cool as loyalist Space Marines but you can include them in your army as awed allies. Oh and if you're some loser I guess you could also try these NPC armies. who serve to make the Space Marines look cool but... I mean, if you INSIST. It's just that in the lore, that isn't so much the case, but in every other aspect of the game it's practically been the Horus Heresy for about a decade or more.

So I don't think it would've made much, if any, difference.

 Pouncey wrote:

nou wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
Probably.

The reason it was popular for so long was because of its high-quality plastic miniatures, and most of the Horus Heresy stuff was invented after WH40k became popular.

Nowadays there are other companies making plastic miniatures of a similar quality to GW minis, selling them for less money, with better rules that also cost less and in many cases are free. So the only reasons to be playing WH40k at all nowadays are either that you really like the lore background, or you're unwilling to move on to another game that is both better and cheaper, due to the amount of money/time you've already invested into your WH40k hobby.

The reason it was popular for so long was because it was THE wargame: the largest playerbase, the most developed seting and the largest model range for at least two decades. Nowadays it still is if you don't dig Star Wars universe much. DOW made GW universe known to the "general gamers public". Only recently, there is enough competition to have practical choice (by practical I mean both model availability and playerbase in your area) and only if you aim at "general idea of tabletop gaming". It still has some unique factions, which aesthetics or feel you may enjoy, that are absent in other systems. Tell me - what other game has a significant Eldar, Genestealer Cults or AdMech equivalents? I see the "better rules and cheaper models of similiar quality" argument in every single "GW is crap" debate here on dakka, but never has anyone been able to name the game which would be a direct alternative for WH40K - not a skirmish level Infinity, not a 10mm Dropzone, not a "rip-off" Warpath universe with four small factions (which all look like anime armour put on a differently shaped humanoid)... There are alternatives if you just want a wargame, there are a lot other games if you want small model count skirmishes or WWII feel games, but nothing really to compete with 40K as a whole experience. And most alternatives that emerge usually die out due to lack of players within a couple of years... Who still plays Wolsung or Neuroshima, or even heard of them? Many games have only US coverage, some are European only, shortly lasting phenomenons. X-Wing managed because it had the whole Star Wars universe to back it up - you don't invent a catching setting overnight from scratch...

You might want to re-read your first sentence. In order to have the largest playerbase, thus becoming the most popular, it has to offer something that other games don't, that makes everyone want to play it over any other game.

As for the better games that are cheaper, Warmachine/Hordes and Infinity are two I can name off the top of my head. You could just go look at the non-GW game forums on this site if you want other examples.

Let me rephrase: for almost two decades WH40K was the only tabletop s-f game known broadly enough to have a "momentum". It had to do exactly one thing to be the most popular one - exist. And I explicitly addressed Infinity as an "alternative" option for WH40K, Warmachine is only a slightly different case - both those games are only "better" than 40K in some regards and are completely different entities - they are not suitable equivalents for entire, varied community. So my point still stands - 40K as a whole experience still does not have direct alternative. But to be crystal clear - I do not think or state by any means, that Warmachine, Infinity, X-Wing, Dropzone or any other tabletop game, are bad games not worthy attention, or that 40K is superior to anything in terms of gameplay. I just state, that all "if you want a good company level, 28mm tabletop s-f game then go play skirmish, fantasy or 10mm game" arguments are pointless. Games being closest to being alternative are Warmachine and Warpath, but one is not s-f and has completely different focus and the other is tiny in comparison... So they can't be an universal answer for each and every member of WH40K community. That is all I'm saying.

nou wrote:
Let me rephrase: for almost two decades WH40K was the only tabletop s-f game known broadly enough to have a "momentum". It had to do exactly one thing to be the most popular one - exist. And I explicitly addressed Infinity as an "alternative" option for WH40K, Warmachine is only a slightly different case - both those games are only "better" than 40K in some regards and are completely different entities - they are not suitable equivalents for entire, varied community. So my point still stands - 40K as a whole experience still does not have direct alternative. But to be crystal clear - I do not think or state by any means, that Warmachine, Infinity, X-Wing, Dropzone or any other tabletop game, are bad games not worthy attention, or that 40K is superior to anything in terms of gameplay. I just state, that all "if you want a good company level, 28mm tabletop s-f game then go play skirmish, fantasy or 10mm game" arguments are pointless. Games being closest to being alternative are Warmachine and Warpath, but one is not s-f and has completely different focus and the other is tiny in comparison... So they can't be an universal answer for each and every member of WH40K community. That is all I'm saying.

I don't think that only having one game for the entire tabletop miniature wargaming community as a whole is a good thing. I think that splitting the community up into different games that each offer something different than WH40k is just fine. I don't think that other games not being exactly the same as WH40k in terms of fiction genre and size/number of miniatures means they're not better games. I don't think that WH40k's popularity while being a "28mm science fantasy game with company-level army sizes" means that most of its players are so fixated on those specific qualifiers of "28mm models", "science fantasy lore" and "company-level army size" that they are unable to enjoy any game that does not have those three things.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arbitrator wrote:
40k is already 90% Space Marines battling Space Marines. A catalogue that is 90% Space Marines and those other Imperial guys and gals who aren't as cool as loyalist Space Marines but you can include them in your army as awed allies. Oh and if you're some loser I guess you could also try these NPC armies. who serve to make the Space Marines look cool but... I mean, if you INSIST. It's just that in the lore, that isn't so much the case, but in every other aspect of the game it's practically been the Horus Heresy for about a decade or more.

So I don't think it would've made much, if any, difference.

In the lore, Space Marines are so rare that the vast majority of planets in the Imperium don't have a single Space Marine on them. Having 1,000 Space Marines together on one planet is enough information to let you know that there are at least 999 planets in the Imperium at that moment with no Space Marines on them whatsoever. They are as rare to Imperial planets as "current President of the USA" is to Earth - i.e. one per planet.

 Pouncey wrote:


I don't think that only having one game for the entire tabletop miniature wargaming community as a whole is a good thing. I think that splitting the community up into different games that each offer something different than WH40k is just fine. I don't think that other games not being exactly the same as WH40k in terms of fiction genre and size/number of miniatures means they're not better games. I don't think that WH40k's popularity while being a "28mm science fantasy game with company-level army sizes" means that most of its players are so fixated on those specific qualifiers of "28mm models", "science fantasy lore" and "company-level army size" that they are unable to enjoy any game that does not have those three things.

But I don't think that either (about 40K monopoly) - it just happen to be how historically things were for over two decades, and those two decades resulted in 40K being a "classic" wargame, which sets "ground point" for comparison to the entire genre and has the absolutelly massive advantage of just model range volume alone. And many players have literally grown up with 40K in their lives, so giving other, non-similiar game titles as an alternative just won't cut it for these particular members of wargaming community. I really would like to see more people playing Wolsung, so I could really make a meanigfull choice between it or Malifaux. Or that Neuroshima hasn't died already. But this is neither the case nor any of those games can replace 40K experience. Given enough time Warpath might, just might grow enough to be a direct competition, but at this point it is in it's infancy stage at most...

And I think that the best point to make about how much "28mm science fantasy lore" means is that the best 40K alternative right now, to which people actually switch to because of lore (and not tournament attitude, as is the case with Warmachine) is 30K and it required nearly 5 years to gain enough momentum...

I also think another big appeal to the Warhammer 40k universe for many people is that its not a pacifist one, its not like star wars or star trek, there is no peace discussions or any of that...

Most science fiction universes usually have that balance, Mass Effect (the citadel where many races were united)

40k just turns all of that upside down,every race for its self, violence breeds violence all of that mess

As the old adage goes: the enemy of my enemy is my friend.

Well actually, in the Imperium, the old adage goes "The enemy of my enemy is a 60-million-year-old murderbot with incomprehensible motives and technology beyond what even my most advanced science could explain."

"The enemy of my enemy is certainly not my friend, but a problem for another day" is how that adage goes in 40k.

LightKing wrote:
I also think another big appeal to the Warhammer 40k universe for many people is that its not a pacifist one, its not like star wars or star trek, there is no peace discussions or any of that...

Most science fiction universes usually have that balance, Mass Effect (the citadel where many races were united)

40k just turns all of that upside down,every race for its self, violence breeds violence all of that mess

What Star Wars movie did you watch where people were so opposed to violence they could be called "pacifists"?

30K is better than 40K in fluff IMO.

 Draco wrote:
30K is better than 40K in fluff IMO.

Errr, its all the same timeline.

 Fenrir Kitsune wrote:

 Draco wrote:
30K is better than 40K in fluff IMO.

Errr, its all the same timeline.

So are Ancient Egypt and modern day (your country) in real life.

I think there are some pretty significant differences though, aren't there?

 Snake Tortoise wrote:
Hmm... good question. I always liked the 30k history/mythology long before HH novels existed, and it's been very cool to get to read about those stories in detail, but it wasn't something that pulled me into the hobby. On the other hand I can't say for sure whether I would have returned to the hobby a few years ago if I didn't have all of the HH background to fire my imagination

LightKing wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
It was before they started talking about it forever and ever.

I though the Horus Heresy background started in 2006 when Black Library started to write the books?

No they key events have been in the background forever, it was just never fleshed out properly with novels. I think that's why the Alpha Legion are so appealing to some of us; in many ways they were a blank slate compared to the other legions so it's not fully known where their story is going and what ultimately happens with their primarchs

The Alpha legion are popular for the same reason eldar are popular, because the rules for them are so strong. Alpha legion is flat out one of the best legions in 30k, maybe you play them for the lore, you are the exception.

PyrhusOfEpirus wrote:
The Alpha legion are popular for the same reason eldar are popular, because the rules for them are so strong. Alpha legion is flat out one of the best legions in 30k, maybe you play them for the lore, you are the exception.

I thought Eldar were popular because people love elves and Eldar are space elves.

Are people who play WH40k so strongly biased toward the powergamer mentality that the only reason the elf army is popular is because it's powerful? Elves are probably the most popular fictional race, even when the concept of winning more games because you play the elf faction isn't relevant since there's no game at all because you're just watching a movie.

i play eldar, i could not care less for the space elf tie-in factor. I dont know why other people play the armies they play, but i can tell you eldar frequently are the most popular army at tournaments. I do know that in a team tournament i went to lastyear (10 teams, 4 players on each team, no duplicate factions on each team), there was 10 eldar players. I doubt it was becasue they are space elves and more to do with being very strong.

Tournament play is powergaming for what that is worth, people dont travel and pay the money they do to showup and get smashed 5 straight games with a subpar force. Tournaments are 85 percent marine/eldar/tau for a reason, and its not the lore.


It just seems to me that a faction that dosnt have the "brand" power of dark angels/bloodangels/space wolves etc would be one of the most popular factions in 30k without them being so strong on the table top. If they had the rules of say the ultramarines (which i play in 30k), i doubt people would use them at all.

PyrhusOfEpirus wrote:
i play eldar, i could not care less for the space elf tie-in factor. I dont know why other people play the armies they play, but i can tell you eldar frequently are the most popular army at tournaments. I do know that in a team tournament i went to lastyear (10 teams, 4 players on each team, no duplicate factions on each team), there was 10 eldar players. I doubt it was becasue they are space elves and more to do with being very strong.

Tournament play is powergaming for what that is worth, people dont travel and pay the money they do to showup and get smashed 5 straight games with a subpar force. Tournaments are 85 percent marine/eldar/tau for a reason, and its not the lore.


It just seems to me that a faction that dosnt have the "brand" power of dark angels/bloodangels/space wolves etc would be one of the most popular factions in 30k without them being so strong on the table top. If they had the rules of say the ultramarines (which i play in 30k), i doubt people would use them at all.

Well, yeah, of course, you're right. Tournaments are 100% about powergaming. Top-end tournament players will always use the most powerful things available to them since winning a game is more important than most other things. Tangentially, you also don't really run into jerks at that level of competition since highly-skilled competitors are too good to care about being pissed off or trying to piss someone else off to let anger distract them from trying to win the game. They don't trash-talk, they just win.

I thought you were saying most WH40k players play Eldar, not that just most WH40k tournament-goers play Eldar.

I got into the game before I had ever heard the word primarch and I might not be the only one ; )

 EnTyme wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Most Heresy fluff is relatively recent, all in the last decade or so, while 40k went on for almost 20 years with naught but vague references and basic details of it. Hell, the Heresy wasnt even a thing when 40k was first released, only being introduced several years later.

The HH stuff is my least favorite part if the 40k universe. It was better as a vague mythic era that was left mostly to our imaginations. Most of the Primarchs come off as giant manchildren driven by immature personalities in godlike bodies. Their relatability is minimal and what there is of it is often rather juvenile. A lot of the HH stuff also clashes with some longstanding 41st millennium elements and is a lot less multidimensional, and a whole lot less subtle. The execution of a lot of the HH fluff is lacking, and draws back too much of the curtain from what once was just the narrative backdrop.

Agreed. Though I haven't been playing the tabletop for very long, I've played DoW and Dark Heresy for years, and I always preferred to think of the Horus Heresy as an ancient legend that has been retold thousands upon millions of time, each time the event getting further and further from the truth. To me, it was sort of like the 40k equivalent of the stories of Hercules and Achilles. I even had a cool bit of head cannon: The "Horus Heresy" was actually just a galactic rebellion orchestrated by the first Space Marines. After the rebellion was eventually put down, the High Lords of Terra came up with a plan to try to prevent such a bloody uprising from ever occurring again. They would bind the Imperium together with the most effective form of control known to our species: organized religion. They created a mythical figure. A man who led the forces of the Imperium to victory in its darkest hour and gave his life for his people: the God Emperor of Mankind.

Surprisingly you are not wrong. Espescially about that last part. If you can find a copy of the old "Inquisition" game rulebook (the old gw large scale miniatuers game) and read the first and second page in it you'll probably get your mind blown.

I'm also not a big fan of the HH. 40k is so radically diffrent from any other sci-fi universe I've seen and I find it fascinating. The HH feels more like a galactic crusade Dune style. Also I prefer the idea of the insane religion and the Emperor being a god that's suffering constantly for the survival of his species, rather then a scientist. Gotta be said though, the first HH triology was great.

As a general theme I think it's helped 40k. If I go to a library I find HH books but nothing else 40k related. I once managed to meet with some library staff and convinced them to aqcuire 40k books to appeal to a younger audience.
Glory to Swedish libraries!

 oldzoggy wrote:
I got into the game before I had ever heard the word primarch and I might not be the only one ; )

Personally, I got into the game before finding out that mixing my Eldar miniatures with the miniatures of any other army I might buy in the future in any combination I wanted wasn't a thing I could do in WH40k. Well, back in 2001. I guess if I started now it wouldn't be an issue since I could just make my army Unbound.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nerak wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Most Heresy fluff is relatively recent, all in the last decade or so, while 40k went on for almost 20 years with naught but vague references and basic details of it. Hell, the Heresy wasnt even a thing when 40k was first released, only being introduced several years later.

The HH stuff is my least favorite part if the 40k universe. It was better as a vague mythic era that was left mostly to our imaginations. Most of the Primarchs come off as giant manchildren driven by immature personalities in godlike bodies. Their relatability is minimal and what there is of it is often rather juvenile. A lot of the HH stuff also clashes with some longstanding 41st millennium elements and is a lot less multidimensional, and a whole lot less subtle. The execution of a lot of the HH fluff is lacking, and draws back too much of the curtain from what once was just the narrative backdrop.

Agreed. Though I haven't been playing the tabletop for very long, I've played DoW and Dark Heresy for years, and I always preferred to think of the Horus Heresy as an ancient legend that has been retold thousands upon millions of time, each time the event getting further and further from the truth. To me, it was sort of like the 40k equivalent of the stories of Hercules and Achilles. I even had a cool bit of head cannon: The "Horus Heresy" was actually just a galactic rebellion orchestrated by the first Space Marines. After the rebellion was eventually put down, the High Lords of Terra came up with a plan to try to prevent such a bloody uprising from ever occurring again. They would bind the Imperium together with the most effective form of control known to our species: organized religion. They created a mythical figure. A man who led the forces of the Imperium to victory in its darkest hour and gave his life for his people: the God Emperor of Mankind.

Surprisingly you are not wrong. Espescially about that last part. If you can find a copy of the old "Inquisition" game rulebook (the old gw large scale miniatuers game) and read the first and second page in it you'll probably get your mind blown.

I'm also not a big fan of the HH. 40k is so radically diffrent from any other sci-fi universe I've seen and I find it fascinating. The HH feels more like a galactic crusade Dune style. Also I prefer the idea of the insane religion and the Emperor being a god that's suffering constantly for the survival of his species, rather then a scientist. Gotta be said though, the first HH triology was great.

As a general theme I think it's helped 40k. If I go to a library I find HH books but nothing else 40k related. I once managed to meet with some library staff and convinced them to aqcuire 40k books to appeal to a younger audience.
Glory to Swedish libraries!

You're a sadist for including WH40k books in libraries. Younger readers don't need fiction that poor-quality being the thing that could form their expectations of books for the rest of their lives.

Unless you told your Library which books are called "Bolter Porn" by fans and convince them not to stock books whose description from fans of that fiction begins and ends with being pornography as it applies to weapons. I think that sentence might be sufficient, actually.

I would say that while the background of 40k is important, it is important only in as much as it sets the stage for the current material which is where most players reside. The Horus Heresy as a historical event whose broad strokes and major events help set the stage for the absurd grimdark that is 40k is vital.

The Horus Heresy series of books, 30k as a game, etc. I'd venture are not important to the success of 40k. This isn't to say it hurts, mind you, but I haven't heard of anyone coming from that side of the fence.

On a more personal note, I dislike what the Horus Heresy has become. I liked it before the novels.

ShaneMarsh wrote:
I would say that while the background of 40k is important, it is important only in as much as it sets the stage for the current material which is where most players reside. The Horus Heresy as a historical event whose broad strokes and major events help set the stage for the absurd grimdark that is 40k is vital.

The Horus Heresy series of books, 30k as a game, etc. I'd venture are not important to the success of 40k. This isn't to say it hurts, mind you, but I haven't heard of anyone coming from that side of the fence.

On a more personal note, I dislike what the Horus Heresy has become. I liked it before the novels.

You know what I totally love reading about WH40k game lore, as a Sisters of Battle player who thinks it's dumb that Space Marines are even playable as their own faction due to how rare they are in the lore?

That thing that happened about 5,000 years in in-game lore before my faction was ever a thing, that is being used as justification to sell more Space Marine models, while my own metal infantry go another month without getting any plastic models that they could've fit into the release schedule if GW never decided to make WH30k a thing they did themselves instead of leaving to Forge World.

LightKing wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
It was before they started talking about it forever and ever.

I though the Horus Heresy background started in 2006 when Black Library started to write the books?

Oh sweet summer child...

 Pouncey wrote:

ShaneMarsh wrote:
I would say that while the background of 40k is important, it is important only in as much as it sets the stage for the current material which is where most players reside. The Horus Heresy as a historical event whose broad strokes and major events help set the stage for the absurd grimdark that is 40k is vital.

The Horus Heresy series of books, 30k as a game, etc. I'd venture are not important to the success of 40k. This isn't to say it hurts, mind you, but I haven't heard of anyone coming from that side of the fence.

On a more personal note, I dislike what the Horus Heresy has become. I liked it before the novels.

You know what I totally love reading about WH40k game lore, as a Sisters of Battle player who thinks it's dumb that Space Marines are even playable as their own faction due to how rare they are in the lore?

That thing that happened about 5,000 years in in-game lore before my faction was ever a thing, that is being used as justification to sell more Space Marine models, while my own metal infantry go another month without getting any plastic models that they could've fit into the release schedule if GW never decided to make WH30k a thing they did themselves instead of leaving to Forge World.

You would've just been bitter about some other SM thing if GW hadn't gone for expanding the Heresy background, tho. Sisters of Battle are a matter of how much GW wants to redo them and clearly they would've been put on the back burner for anything SM-related. They would never go "well, I guess we'll do SoB, we've got nothing else" and would just make something new up instead.

There will be new SoB when and if people at GW decides they want to tackle the project.

Rosebuddy wrote:
You would've just been bitter about some other SM thing if GW hadn't gone for expanding the Heresy background, tho. Sisters of Battle are a matter of how much GW wants to redo them and clearly they would've been put on the back burner for anything SM-related. They would never go "well, I guess we'll do SoB, we've got nothing else" and would just make something new up instead.

There will be new SoB when and if people at GW decides they want to tackle the project.

Hence the ongoing bitterness. They could do it anytime they wanted to. They chose not to. For THIS long.

 Pouncey wrote:

 oldzoggy wrote:
I got into the game before I had ever heard the word primarch and I might not be the only one ; )

Personally, I got into the game before finding out that mixing my Eldar miniatures with the miniatures of any other army I might buy in the future in any combination I wanted wasn't a thing I could do in WH40k. Well, back in 2001. I guess if I started now it wouldn't be an issue since I could just make my army Unbound.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Nerak wrote:

 EnTyme wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Most Heresy fluff is relatively recent, all in the last decade or so, while 40k went on for almost 20 years with naught but vague references and basic details of it. Hell, the Heresy wasnt even a thing when 40k was first released, only being introduced several years later.

The HH stuff is my least favorite part if the 40k universe. It was better as a vague mythic era that was left mostly to our imaginations. Most of the Primarchs come off as giant manchildren driven by immature personalities in godlike bodies. Their relatability is minimal and what there is of it is often rather juvenile. A lot of the HH stuff also clashes with some longstanding 41st millennium elements and is a lot less multidimensional, and a whole lot less subtle. The execution of a lot of the HH fluff is lacking, and draws back too much of the curtain from what once was just the narrative backdrop.

Agreed. Though I haven't been playing the tabletop for very long, I've played DoW and Dark Heresy for years, and I always preferred to think of the Horus Heresy as an ancient legend that has been retold thousands upon millions of time, each time the event getting further and further from the truth. To me, it was sort of like the 40k equivalent of the stories of Hercules and Achilles. I even had a cool bit of head cannon: The "Horus Heresy" was actually just a galactic rebellion orchestrated by the first Space Marines. After the rebellion was eventually put down, the High Lords of Terra came up with a plan to try to prevent such a bloody uprising from ever occurring again. They would bind the Imperium together with the most effective form of control known to our species: organized religion. They created a mythical figure. A man who led the forces of the Imperium to victory in its darkest hour and gave his life for his people: the God Emperor of Mankind.

Surprisingly you are not wrong. Espescially about that last part. If you can find a copy of the old "Inquisition" game rulebook (the old gw large scale miniatuers game) and read the first and second page in it you'll probably get your mind blown.

I'm also not a big fan of the HH. 40k is so radically diffrent from any other sci-fi universe I've seen and I find it fascinating. The HH feels more like a galactic crusade Dune style. Also I prefer the idea of the insane religion and the Emperor being a god that's suffering constantly for the survival of his species, rather then a scientist. Gotta be said though, the first HH triology was great.

As a general theme I think it's helped 40k. If I go to a library I find HH books but nothing else 40k related. I once managed to meet with some library staff and convinced them to aqcuire 40k books to appeal to a younger audience.
Glory to Swedish libraries!

You're a sadist for including WH40k books in libraries. Younger readers don't need fiction that poor-quality being the thing that could form their expectations of books for the rest of their lives.

Unless you told your Library which books are called "Bolter Porn" by fans and convince them not to stock books whose description from fans of that fiction begins and ends with being pornography as it applies to weapons. I think that sentence might be sufficient, actually.

Haha, good point. As I recall I made a list of some ten books as recomendations. If memory serves path of the warrior (which had recently been released), thirtheenth penal legion, comissar cain, Eisenhorn as well as the first three Horus Heresy books (which where also pretty new at the time) where on it. It was quite some time ago so don't remmember things clearly though. Still, the young ones need to learn about the bolters and the battles somehow. I'd prefer bolter porn in a controlled enviroment like libraries over all that stuff they could find on the internet. That horrible, indecent and downright decadent fanfiction for instance. Not to mention 1d4chan.

I heard 1d4chan is great for kids.

 Nerak wrote:
Haha, good point. As I recall I made a list of some ten books as recomendations. If memory serves path of the warrior (which had recently been released), thirtheenth penal legion, comissar cain, Eisenhorn as well as the first three Horus Heresy books (which where also pretty new at the time) where on it. It was quite some time ago so don't remmember things clearly though. Still, the young ones need to learn about the bolters and the battles somehow. I'd prefer bolter porn in a controlled enviroment like libraries over all that stuff they could find on the internet. That horrible, indecent and downright decadent fanfiction for instance. Not to mention 1d4chan.

It may interest you that I actually used to read a ton of books. Reading books was one of my hobbies for many years, and I'd often read the same book over and over.

Then I read the WH40k book Faith and Fire, since I was looking forward to reading a book about the Sisters of Battle. I enjoyed most of it. Then I got to the ending.

Faith and Fire is the last book I ever read in my life, and that's not likely to change.

The one and only WH40k book I ever read turned me, who beforehand could be described as an avid reader, into someone who has never read any book since.

I don't know why the ending affected me that much. But I can define the moment in the book that did it.

It was the moment that the floor in the elevator dropped away, and not everyone in the squad was able to grab onto something fast enough to not fall to their deaths.

That death scene was so utterly pointless, that the only reason it could have been written, was just to kill off a few characters, who could've been killed off just fine by the enemies they fought in the next scene.

There was zero reason to even write it into existence at all. They could've not written that scene and killed off those characters in the next battle with a powerful foe showing up.

And it destroyed my love of reading books, forever.

WH40k books destroyed my love of books. With one scene that was written for no reason. I watched lore be written to kill people off who could've easily been killed off anyways. I read something, that was completely, and utterly, pointless to have ever written.

That scene was not enjoyable. There was no action. No fighting. No humor. Nothing. It offered nothing useful of any sort to the narrative or experience. Just written for the sake of writing characters dying in a different way.

After that can be written into a book, I asked, what is the point of reading books anymore?

The "unexpected and arbitrary death" trope is so often used in fiction I'm surprised you hadn't encountered it before.

That it should provoke such a strong reaction in someone is, shall we say, a statistical outlier?