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Davor wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:
Or you can "leach" off the use of the space and wait until the owner shuts it down or the store closes it's doors, pretty simple cause and effect.

Now now, my fellow Canadian. We can't talk like this, we might hurt some people's feelings for actually saying the truth and need people to make excuses so they can feel better for their actions. I am sure a few people will come in and say how this is "not leeching" and will need to try and prove us wrong instead of respecting our opinion of something.

Well, to speak to those who may feel entitled to the use of the space "free and clear", do not fool yourself into thinking it is not noticed.
My local FLGS owner I have seen over time make things difficult for those who do not eventually buy at his store.

No sense having the valued patrons compete for space with those who are not.
I have had some interesting exchanges with the guy myself like:

Q "Hey! I would love to buy something but you seem to not carry what I want!"
A "Not my problem you like product from companies that like hiring former used car salesmen and tax collectors for staff. I would suggest you "diversify" your tastes."

Q "What the heck? You actually HAVE some FFG stuff in the store, did you kiss and make-up with your distributor or did you get a wrong shipment?"
A "When I can monthly go see a friend in a far city who has a better distributor than the one for my area, you get your stuff... monthly. No Christmas cards for my guy here."

Q "What is with all the new GW stuff? Does this mean they value your money again?"
A "When they clued-in that they do not run my store or get to tell me what I can or cannot have, I then buy their stuff. They are slow learners."

Q "Well, I guess I better pay for the place **again** when does rent come due and I will try to come by?"
A "Not to worry, I appear to have found even more people to support my business and their habit, I did not even have to hand out free samples at the street corner!"

Q "Look at all the MTG players... why do you carry any other product or put up with us tabletop gamers?"
A "It would help if you joined the group here, but you guys make up for it in character and clearing out shelf space."

The owner is a pretty quirky guy but seems to enjoy harassment of this nature: it gives him permission to dish it back.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
When is the last time a manager played a game with you?

Last Sunday. Kill Teams-my Necrons versus his Chaos Space Marines.

Must have been a slow night at the register.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Talizvar wrote:

Davor wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:
Or you can "leach" off the use of the space and wait until the owner shuts it down or the store closes it's doors, pretty simple cause and effect.

Now now, my fellow Canadian. We can't talk like this, we might hurt some people's feelings for actually saying the truth and need people to make excuses so they can feel better for their actions. I am sure a few people will come in and say how this is "not leeching" and will need to try and prove us wrong instead of respecting our opinion of something.

Well, to speak to those who may feel entitled to the use of the space "free and clear", do not fool yourself into thinking it is not noticed.
My local FLGS owner I have seen over time make things difficult for those who do not eventually buy at his store.

No sense having the valued patrons compete for space with those who are not.
I have had some interesting exchanges with the guy myself like:

Q "Hey! I would love to buy something but you seem to not carry what I want!"
A "Not my problem you like product from companies that like hiring former used car salesmen and tax collectors for staff. I would suggest you "diversify" your tastes."

Q "What the heck? You actually HAVE some FFG stuff in the store, did you kiss and make-up with your distributor or did you get a wrong shipment?"
A "When I can monthly go see a friend in a far city who has a better distributor than the one for my area, you get your stuff... monthly. No Christmas cards for my guy here."

Q "What is with all the new GW stuff? Does this mean they value your money again?"
A "When they clued-in that they do not run my store or get to tell me what I can or cannot have, I then buy their stuff. They are slow learners."

Q "Well, I guess I better pay for the place **again** when does rent come due and I will try to come by?"
A "Not to worry, I appear to have found even more people to support my business and their habit, I did not even have to hand out free samples at the street corner!"

Q "Look at all the MTG players... why do you carry any other product or put up with us tabletop gamers?"
A "It would help if you joined the group here, but you guys make up for it in character and clearing out shelf space."

The owner is a pretty quirky guy but seems to enjoy harassment of this nature: it gives him permission to dish it back.

The difference between a FLGS owner and a player: he was dumb enough to pay for retail space.

I have 'volunteered' at a FLGS on and off for over a decade. The number of months the store runs profitably in any given year can be counted on one hand. The owner would do better financially working 2 minimum wage jobs full time than 'investing' in the community. The customers range in age from 10 to 80 years old, so he has to be sensitive to the needs of more than 3 generations of people. The products he sells include miniatures, cards, military models, trains, gaming systems, books, paints, and an assortment of other stuff, so he has to be able to field questions on a set of hobby interests so diverse it makes us all look like noobs. An average day for him is about 12 hours spent sitting on a stool.

Despite all this, he still manages to work with a community of hobbyists to take some of that space and use it for events. More than 40% of the retail space is dedicated to gaming tables, which are in use just about every night of the week and all the time on weekends. Most of the people who show up are not there to buy anything, they are there to play with other people. Sometimes, the kids make fun of him, the parents get uppity about prices he cannot control, and the old timers tie him up in nostalgic talk about anything they choose for HOURS.

You have to be a little quirky to sign up for this. Other people would call it punishment.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
When is the last time a manager played a game with you?

Last Sunday. Kill Teams-my Necrons versus his Chaos Space Marines.

Must have been a slow night at the register.

I'm impressed at my local GW the manager still manages to get games in with people. It seems like he usually plays against people who are also in the store painting, so if the game gets put on hold for half an hour while the manager deals with customres it's no big deal because the opponent just paints for a while instead.

I ALWAYS buy an overpriced soda, or bag of chips when I go to the FLGS to play.

I will purchase items they stock, Sometimes I order from them. When I don't mind waiting a month.

I do not however feel compelled to buy every model from them. Or brush or paint.

Davor wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
What about the guy driving the bus your screwing over by driving to work, or the convenience store owner you boned by using the vending machines at your cafeteria etc etc.

Emotional appeals like that are plain weak, I don't owe the shop manager a living any more than I owe anyone else.

Then why are people using the emotional appeal of the Local Gaming store needing to pay for rent, hydro, workers and what not? You don't own the local Friendly Gaming store anything at all either.

The only time I've seen this brought up is in RESPONSE to people saying the GW employee needs to do those things, as if they're the only ones. That's not emotional appeal, that's pointing out that others are using an emotional appeal to give preferential treatment.

Other than that, the talking about buying snacks at the lgs is STILL ABOUT SAVING MONEY, it just seems like you don't understand what that can mean, though I've tried explaining it twice. It might cost me 50 cents more to buy a candy bar at the lgs, but it might also cost me 50 cents in gas to get to a convenience store, and that EVENS IT OUT, in fact saves me money to my mind because my time has a value as well, and it would take time to go to the convenience store. You can't even out the cost of models in the same way!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Davor wrote:

 Talizvar wrote:
Or you can "leach" off the use of the space and wait until the owner shuts it down or the store closes it's doors, pretty simple cause and effect.

Now now, my fellow Canadian. We can't talk like this, we might hurt some people's feelings for actually saying the truth and need people to make excuses so they can feel better for their actions. I am sure a few people will come in and say how this is "not leeching" and will need to try and prove us wrong instead of respecting our opinion of something.

We're all aware of how economics work (well, maybe not ALL of us). We're just saying the use of tables isn't valued equally or greater than the money we would have to spend to shop at a place, and it's not our responsibility to make it so, by going into our own heads and rewiring ourselves to say "Hey you know what, I SHOULD spend a large amount of extra money even though I'm allowed to be here without doing so!"

Davor wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
What about the guy driving the bus your screwing over by driving to work, or the convenience store owner you boned by using the vending machines at your cafeteria etc etc.

Emotional appeals like that are plain weak, I don't owe the shop manager a living any more than I owe anyone else.

Then why are people using the emotional appeal of the Local Gaming store needing to pay for rent, hydro, workers and what not? You don't own the local Friendly Gaming store anything at all either.

It's only mentioned because people are conflating a privately owned shop with a retail store, the difference has to be pointed out.

You don't owe someone running a flgs a living no where have I said you do, all I've done is point out the flgs has costs a GW store does not.

if you don't buy from your game store it won't be around very long, if you don't buy from GW stores the manager will change on a regular basis.

I don't think I can make it simpler to understand than that.

hobojebus wrote:
if you don't buy from your game store it won't be around very long, if you don't buy from GW stores the manager will change on a regular basis.

I don't think I can make it simpler to understand than that.

I think you do need to make it more simpler than that. So it's ok for the guy working at GW gets fired then?

hobojebus wrote:


You don't owe someone running a flgs a living no where have I said you do, all I've done is point out the flgs has costs a GW store does not.

if you don't buy from your game store it won't be around very long, if you don't buy from GW stores the manager will change on a regular basis.

GW stores still have a cost to run, a failing store will tend to replace it's managers for not hitting sales goals but those stores are still not immune to the effects of being closed down if they are not turning a profit. GW frequently closes down stores, they close almost as many stores as they open each year so just like the FLGS they are in fact impacted by gamers not buying at their location. Their pricing threshold may be structured differently than a FLGS but they still have to remain within a reasonable target otherwise the store is a complete write off and it'll be closed down when their leases comes up for renewal. GW doesn't keep stores open that are running in the red. That may be great news for the people who want GW to burn, but it's a loss for anyone that uses the store even infrequently.

Over the last few years I've watched GW in our area all but shrink and disappear. They used to have several large shops with tables that supported the gaming community, then all of those locations closed and were replaced by one man closet stores that don't offer any space to play, then we saw even further shrinkage as half of the one man stores were closed within another years time. Everytime a store closes be it GW or an Indy FLGS the community gets smaller and gamers have fewer places to meet each other and network. You can't meet new friends on Amazon which is why people still need physical stores or clubs (and in the US stores fill in for the roles of the clubs)

 stanman wrote:

hobojebus wrote:


You don't owe someone running a flgs a living no where have I said you do, all I've done is point out the flgs has costs a GW store does not.

if you don't buy from your game store it won't be around very long, if you don't buy from GW stores the manager will change on a regular basis.

GW stores still have a cost to run, a failing store will tend to replace it's managers for not hitting sales goals but those stores are still not immune to the effects of being closed down if they are not turning a profit. GW frequently closes down stores, they close almost as many stores as they open each year so just like the FLGS they are in fact impacted by gamers not buying at their location. Their pricing threshold may be structured differently than a FLGS but they still have to remain within a reasonable target otherwise the store is a complete write off and it'll be closed down when their leases comes up for renewal. GW doesn't keep stores open that are running in the red. That may be great news for the people who want GW to burn, but it's a loss for anyone that uses the store even infrequently.

Over the last few years I've watched GW in our area all but shrink and disappear. They used to have several large shops with tables that supported the gaming community, then all of those locations closed and were replaced by one man closet stores that don't offer any space to play, then we saw even further shrinkage as half of the one man stores were closed within another years time. Everytime a store closes be it GW or an Indy FLGS the community gets smaller and gamers have fewer places to meet each other and network. You can't meet new friends on Amazon which is why people still need physical stores or clubs (and in the US stores fill in for the roles of the clubs)

I agree with your post response there. I too have seen GW fall on their own sword as they drive the gaming community away, so as in the end the argumentative of "Oh, you HAVE to buy everything from GW, because... you'll run them out of business... as I watch the yearly price hike from 15-45.00, the degraded quality of the products, the less that you get in a box getting priced out of hand, and the game itself die, as GW continued to gut their golden goose.

The false narrative being thrown about here is that because the kid received a discount, that it was somehow "Wrong" that he build his GW kit in a GW store. The talk being thrown about here would be laughable if people didn't honestly believe it. As if the kid in question was never going to buy another GW product, again... I mean, seriously, That kid received a minimal discount, and people are braying on about closing the store because of it... ( I mean, never mind that that same kid is going to have to buy a rulebook, a codex, additional units, additional dice, paint, brushes, glue, green stuff, additional army units, maybe a novel or two... or three, the calendar, the Forge world gear, ETC, ETC ............ on and on, and on.)

All of the products have already been sufficiently MARKED UP, even on a bad day, and all the while said same GW shop is already cutting into the local game community, and all with a whopping one to three tables, a minimal hobby area, and a small shop. Point of order on that "Shrinking shop" issue as well- these stores are engaged in commerce, the shops have these areas in the stores at a whim to, make the products live, as people who walk by the shop see people putting the gear together. I mean, seriously, the hyperbole being thrown around is a little much.

Davor wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
if you don't buy from your game store it won't be around very long, if you don't buy from GW stores the manager will change on a regular basis.

I don't think I can make it simpler to understand than that.

I think you do need to make it more simpler than that. So it's ok for the guy working at GW gets fired then?

Yes it is, it's up to him and only him to meet his targets.

It's the free market you either do your job well or you get replaced.

Nobody owes anybody a living, it's a dog eat dog world where the strong do eat and the weak are meat.

hobojebus wrote:

Davor wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
if you don't buy from your game store it won't be around very long, if you don't buy from GW stores the manager will change on a regular basis.

I don't think I can make it simpler to understand than that.

I think you do need to make it more simpler than that. So it's ok for the guy working at GW gets fired then?

Yes it is, it's up to him and only him to meet his targets.

It's the free market you either do your job well or you get replaced.

Nobody owes anybody a living, it's a dog eat dog world where the strong do eat and the weak are meat.

Have you ever dealt with gamers?

This is an incredibly ridiculous statement to make.

hobojebus wrote:

Davor wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
if you don't buy from your game store it won't be around very long, if you don't buy from GW stores the manager will change on a regular basis.

I don't think I can make it simpler to understand than that.

I think you do need to make it more simpler than that. So it's ok for the guy working at GW gets fired then?

Yes it is, it's up to him and only him to meet his targets.

It's the free market you either do your job well or you get replaced.

Nobody owes anybody a living, it's a dog eat dog world where the strong do eat and the weak are meat.

That is true and I fully agree. Thing is you don't flaunt the product you buy from someone else in that person's face when his hands are tied on what he can and can not do.

 Kanluwen wrote:

hobojebus wrote:

Davor wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
if you don't buy from your game store it won't be around very long, if you don't buy from GW stores the manager will change on a regular basis.

I don't think I can make it simpler to understand than that.

I think you do need to make it more simpler than that. So it's ok for the guy working at GW gets fired then?

Yes it is, it's up to him and only him to meet his targets.

It's the free market you either do your job well or you get replaced.

Nobody owes anybody a living, it's a dog eat dog world where the strong do eat and the weak are meat.

Have you ever dealt with gamers?

This is an incredibly ridiculous statement to make.

No but I've worked in retail customer service and have had to deal with customers face to face, I've had them lie to my face I've had them start fights I've had them steal stuff.

By comparison introvert gamers would be child's play and not deserving of special consideration.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
The other thing about the GW store is the army cabinets. Some stores invest in putting up nice models, but not this one. The house armies are a Warhammer Empire army which shouldn't even exist anymore, and an Imperial Fists army that looks like it was painted with Elmer's Glue and Crayola markers. I tell him he should learn to paint if he's going to sell things for people to paint, and he tells me I just don't understand his style (which could be best described as Stucco.)

To make up for it, he's constantly nagging people to put their armies on display in his cabinet. The cabinet has an front facing door with a broken lock anyone can open, and it's right next to the front door. Models have vanished from there a few times, which makes sense when you think about the fact a) he doesn't get to sell them so he doesn't really care and b) people would be more likely to steal the nice models instead of the Ronald McDonald marines he keeps around. There is a nice looking Fire Raptor sitting in the cabinet right now, in this store where FW is forbidden. I think the only reason it's still there is because people know he will get all over their case if they try to use it on the tables.

I had terrain disappear from a local store that way - my terrain, and I was letting the store use it.

Then the manager wanted to know when I would replace the terrain he had allowed to be stolen....

Hell freezing over may have been part of my reply.

The Auld Grump - I don't just nurse a grudge - I raise it through childhood and makes sure that it gets into a good college.

Financial self-interest says buy where it's cheapest. Enjoyment self-interest says you want to keep the GW store in business, as it's where you paint/play.

GW stores aren't just retail, they're also a service. That's how they compete with their lower priced FLGS. They have much higher stock levels and much greater variety of product, so they usually have what you want.

There's no wrong/right in this matter. GW makes money no matter where you buy your GW product. But if you want to keep the GW store in business, it's wiser to support it.

Davor wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
if you don't buy from your game store it won't be around very long, if you don't buy from GW stores the manager will change on a regular basis.

I don't think I can make it simpler to understand than that.

I think you do need to make it more simpler than that. So it's ok for the guy working at GW gets fired then?

If we're trying to tug on heart strings here, I absolutely care less about a guy working at GW getting fired than I care about an FLGS going down the tube. Even if the GW store closed, I'm not going to feel as sorry for them as if an FLGS closed.

Why?

Because losing your job sucks, but having to close a small business is waaaaaay worse. If you're fired you're still getting paid up until you get fired and once you're fired and find a new job, that's basically the end of the story. If a small business fails it's often costing the owner a huge amount of personal stress and financial loss and when it finally closes they often have 10's if not 100's of thousands of dollars tied up in the business either out of pocket or in debt. A small business owner is getting paid out of the store's profits so if the store isn't making profits, the owner isn't getting paid and may have to fire staff to avoid going even more horribly in debt.

GW is a multi million dollar multi national company, if a store closes they can absorb the loss and can treat it as a learning experience.

You also have the fact if an FLGS is making profit, that profit is typically staying in the community, if a GW makes profit above paying rent and the manager, that money is going overseas to the aforementioned multi-million dollar company.

John Prins wrote:Financial self-interest says buy where it's cheapest. Enjoyment self-interest says you want to keep the GW store in business, as it's where you paint/play.

GW stores aren't just retail, they're also a service. That's how they compete with their lower priced FLGS. They have much higher stock levels and much greater variety of product, so they usually have what you want.

There's no wrong/right in this matter. GW makes money no matter where you buy your GW product. But if you want to keep the GW store in business, it's wiser to support it.

Even that's not always true. Often the FLGS will have both a discounted price AND tables you can play on. The FLGS just a couple of minutes down the road from the local GW has tables you pay to play, but the tables are so much better, bigger and enough of them that you can actually organise a proper event.

Also since GW cut down the amount of product a store carries, it's not uncommon for the GW to not have something in stock that the two nearby FLGS's do have in stock.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Even that's not always true. Often the FLGS will have both a discounted price AND tables you can play on. The FLGS just a couple of minutes down the road from the local GW has tables you pay to play, but the tables are so much better, bigger and enough of them that you can actually organise a proper event.

That is not, however, how the original question was framed. My point was that IF the GW store is offering something the FLGS is NOT, and you paint/game in the GW store, it makes good sense to support the GW store despite higher prices, because they are offering you a service you value.

If the FLGS is offering everything the GW store is plus lower prices, they have out-competed GW on every front. And if this is the case, then by all means support the FLGS instead - you need never even step into a GW store at all.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

If we're trying to tug on heart strings here, I absolutely care less about a guy working at GW getting fired than I care about an FLGS going down the tube. Even if the GW store closed, I'm not going to feel as sorry for them as if an FLGS closed.

Why?

Because losing your job sucks, but having to close a small business is waaaaaay worse. If you're fired you're still getting paid up until you get fired and once you're fired and find a new job, that's basically the end of the story. If a small business fails it's often costing the owner a huge amount of personal stress and financial loss and when it finally closes they often have 10's if not 100's of thousands of dollars tied up in the business either out of pocket or in debt. A small business owner is getting paid out of the store's profits so if the store isn't making profits, the owner isn't getting paid and may have to fire staff to avoid going even more horribly in debt.

GW is a multi million dollar multi national company, if a store closes they can absorb the loss and can treat it as a learning experience.

You also have the fact if an FLGS is making profit, that profit is typically staying in the community, if a GW makes profit above paying rent and the manager, that money is going overseas to the aforementioned multi-million dollar company.

Fair enough I see where you are coming from now.