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 Traditio wrote:

 gummyofallbears wrote:
I have no issues with big monsters in 40k, as long as they are balanced and brought in a friendly game. I'll bring a giant 1000 point flying bird when I start my daemons, but I'll also ask if you wanna fight it or not.

Frankly, we have no clue how insane he will be. A knight or WK is broken because they are underpriced, maybe big red will be perfectly priced, and a good counter to the garbage that is in the game, which is something chaos need, a heavy bolter on some rubric marines won't beat a wraithknight. That is not to say a heavy bolter wouldn't help rucricae, but it won't help in this specific situation, magnus might.

If you legitimately think that there is too much garbage in the game, then buying MORE garbage and encouraging GW to produce MORE garbage is literally the opposite of what you should be doing.

I agree with you. Magnus is precisely the sort of thing that CSM would need to deal with something like wraithknight, a hive tyrant, a riptide, a storm surge, etc.

But do you really want a game where that's even a consideration? Where you even have to ask yourself: "How do I counter a <300 point fething wraithknight?"

If you buy Magnus, you are just encouraging GW to move the game more in that direction.

I don't play CSM, and I don't have any intention to. I think they are silly and can't get behind their lore.

However, I still want them to have a big centrepiece, at least let the people who like the model enjoy themselves, and let the people who have been wanting this for years have their fun.

And from the looks of it, Magnus seems balanced enough, considering he is a fething primarch and the such.

Just a bit of hilariocity, ya'll are saying it he is OP but it seems currently the best way to give him a better invuln that 4+ is cursed earth, theres no need to be so pessimistic.

 JNAProductions wrote:
So how is everyone? I hope you're all doing well. I'm a bit under the weather, but you know, it's cold out, it happens. Seeing the doctor tomorrow, so hopefully that'll get sorted out.

As for this? I don't think it's really worthy of a response. I, for one, am not going to buy Magnus-not because I think he's broken (he might be-but at 650 points, probably not) but because I'm a Nurgle man myself.

Now, let's see. At 650 points, he's got 7 wounds with a 4++. He's almost certainly going to have EW, since he's a flipping Primarch, but let's see how many sniper shots it takes to kill him.

7 wounds. A 4++ makes that 14, rerolling ones makes that 16.8. Wounding on 4s makes that 33.6. Hitting on 3s makes that 50.4. So that's 51 Space Marines Scouts with Sniper Rifles to kill Magnus in one turn. That's only 612 points.

Traditio, did you bother to do the math? Because I just did. Point for point, Space Marine Scouts with Sniper Rifles kill this guy. In one turn.

Edit: Of course, he can fly to multiply the number of shots needed by 4. In which case, point for point, Space Marines Scouts with Sniper Rifles can STILL kill him, since he won't be able to wipe enough of them out before they shoot him out of the sky. It just won't happen in one turn, instead taking several.

Did you take Hard to Hit and psychic powers into account?

Sniper are hitting him on 6s, wounding on 4s and bypassing the invuln, best case scenario, assuming a 3++ rerollable save is failed. I won't even factor in the possibility of a 2++ rerollable:

1/6 X 1/2 = 1/12. 1 in 12 sniper shots will trigger a saving throw if he's flying.

12 X 1/3 = 1/36. Only 1/36 shots will bypass the initial 3++ save. Half of those will trigger a reroll. Half of those will directly cause a wound. So 1/72 will cause a wound right off the bat. In the other half of the time, the die is getting rerolled and will only bypass the invuln 1 in 3 times. So 1/72 X 1/3 = 1/216.

That comes out to 4/216 or 2/153.

It would take roughly 75 sniper shots to cause a single unsaved wound. It would 525 sniper shots, on average, to take down Magnus the Red if he stays in the air.

But let's assume that the CSM player stupidly keeps him on the ground the whole game, and he's facing off against an army of ONLY SM scouts with sniper rifles:

2/3 X 1/2 = 1/3. Every 3rd shot triggers a saving throw. 1/3 X 1/3 = 1/9. Every 9th shot causes either a wound or a reroll. This means that every 9th shot will trigger a reroll, and every 18th shot will cause a wound.

1/18 X 1/3 = 1/54.

4/54 = 2/27. It would take more than13 shots to cause a single unsaved wound against Magnus. More than 91 shots to take him down completely.

And that's if Magnus remains on the ground and is standing right out in the open basically waving to the scouts and saying: "HI! HERE I AM! SHOOT ME! LET ME PUT A TARGET ON MY CHEST! YOU CAN DO IIIIT!" FOR THE WHOLE GAME!

Magnus is OP durable. He shouldn't be a thing.

And where are you getting a 3+ from? Magnus doesn't have Cursed Earth.

If Magnus is in the air for hard to hit then his only source of damage is witchfires which is not worth 700 points

Feel free to refuse to play against him.

As for a boycott... nah. He's awesome. He's a daemon primarch. He seems about as strong as he should be.

How about another option. That being you can buy him and not use him in casual games but include him when you are facing tau,eldar and gladius cheese. Its about time CSM got some heavy hitters.

Let's assume a 4+ rerollable.

1/6 X 1/2 = 1/12 to trigger a saving throw.

1/12 X 1/2 = 1/24 to either wound or trigger a reroll.
1/24 X 2/3 = 2/72 or 1/36 cause a wound outright.
1/72 trigger a reroll, half of which get saved. So 1/144 bypass the reroll.

Adding it up, that means that 5/144 sniper shots cause an unsaved wound against a flying Magnus.

5/144 X 1/7 = 5/1008

It would still take over 200 sniper shots to take down a flying magnus.

Grounded magnus in plain sight:

2/3 X 1/2 = 1/3.
1/3 X 1/2 = 1/6 to wound or trigger a reroll
1/6 X 2/3 = 2/18
1/18 X 1/2 = 1/36
4/36 + 1/36 = 5/36
5/36 X 1/7 = 5/192

If Magnus stays on the ground, has absolutely no buffs and is in plain sight the whole game, it would take roughly 40 shots to take Magnus down.

That said, these hypotheses are unreasonable:

1. Who takes that many snipers?
2. Who is going to run Magnus without some way to increase his invuln?

I propose that instead of boycotting Magnus, we should boycott the Wraith Knight, the Riptide, and Grav Weapons.

You know, the actual things causing the problem, not the thing that is still largely a rumor up in the air and isn't abused by anyone who can't stand the thought of losing to the point that they'd start boycotts against any remote perceived threat against.

 Traditio wrote:
I have previously seen you complain about wraithknights and riptides and how game-breakingly OP they are.

That is a problem with their point cost and specific rules, not the general concept of "giant models in 40k". If they cost 900 points each there wouldn't be a problem.

Do you really expect me to believe that you are excited about a model that will be able to blow up your leeman russes and valkeries with pretty much no possibility of you doing much of anything about it?

Again, point costs. The problem is not the existence of a model that can blow up LRBTs and Valkyries, the possible problem is if it's too cheap for the damage it can do. If it has the right point cost for its power then it's fine. It will kill lots of stuff, but it will require such a huge investment that you can win the game elsewhere.

Oh! I got it!

Two max Sternguard Squads (440 Points) and three drop pods (105 points). 545 points total. Also, they're Imperial Fists. This matters.

If they get first turn (so no chance to buff Magnus, no chance for Magnus to get in the air, etc. etc.) they deepstrike in and shoot 40 Hellfire rounds at him. 26.67 hit, and of the 13.33 that miss, 6.67 are 1s. Those get rerolled into 4.44 more hits, for 31.11 hits total. They wound on 2s, for 25.93 wounds total. Magnus saves half (12.96) and has 4.32 rerolls, for 2.16 more saves. However, 8.65 wounds go through. Enough to kill the fether.

"But wait!" you say. "That's only a 50% chance to kill Magnus!"

To which I say, you have 105 points left over. Take Coteaz, and, I dunno. Melta Bombs. Anyway, now you can reroll seizing the initiative and force your opponent to reroll his successful siezes.

So, out of 72 games, you go first in 36. In one of those 36, your opponent rolls a 6 twice in a row and siezes.

In the other 36, in which your opponent goes first, you seize in 6. Out of the remaining 30, your reroll gives you 5 more seizes. So that's 11 seized games for you, and only 1 for your opponent.

So out of 72 games, you go first (and in all likelihood, kill Magnus turn one) in 46/72 or 63.89% of all games.

As a Thousand Sons player, who has played a terrible codex and had to play against the cheese of eldar, space marines, and others, I hope to God Magnus and the entire 1ksons line is overpowered. I hope this so I can smash your wraith knights, riptides and gladiuses to pieces. Will be just desserts for the crap I've had to work with compared to your easy mode.

Azoqu wrote:
As a Thousand Sons player, who has played a terrible codex and had to play against the cheese of eldar, space marines, and others, I hope to God Magnus and the entire 1ksons line is overpowered. I hope this so I can smash your wraith knights, riptides and gladiuses to pieces. Will be just desserts for the crap I've had to work with compared to your easy mode.

This is how you make a terrible environment.

Azoqu wrote:
As a Thousand Sons player, who has played a terrible codex and had to play against the cheese of eldar, space marines, and others, I hope to God Magnus and the entire 1ksons line is overpowered. I hope this so I can smash your wraith knights, riptides and gladiuses to pieces. Will be just desserts for the crap I've had to work with compared to your easy mode.

That's not quite fair. While it might feel satisfying to say "Screw you, you bleeping bleepers, I'm the OP one now!" it's for the best as a community if everything is actually balanced.

The fact that there exists a way to (semi)-reliably kill a unit, even on turn 1, doesn't make that unit not-OP.

If I see that my opponent has a wraithknight, I can, 100% of the time, insist that he either replace the wraithknight with something else, or else, refuse the game.

That doesn't make wraithknights not a problem.

Also, this thread is arguable pointless, considering the fact that basically everyone disagrees.

I think that says something about the community, and the fact the majority of people want Magnus.

Okay. What's your point-for-point effective way to kill a Wraithknight?

Because Sternguard are not an OP unit. They're a damn good unit, but costed appropriately. What's your 300 point solution to a Wraithknight?

 Traditio wrote:
The fact that there exists a way to (semi)-reliably kill a unit, even on turn 1, doesn't make that unit not-OP.

If I see that my opponent has a wraithknight, I can, 100% of the time, insist that he either replace the wraithknight with something else, or else, refuse the game.

That doesn't make wraithknights not a problem.

Or maybe you're blowing things out of proportion. Just a tad.

I don't think anyone is really going to be convinced. Your points are well made, and you've made your case. I think we mostly just disagree with how OP he is. Formations/rules may yet prove us wrong, but so far he's legit AFAIC.

 Traditio wrote:
The fact that there exists a way to (semi)-reliably kill a unit, even on turn 1, doesn't make that unit not-OP.

If I see that my opponent has a wraithknight, I can, 100% of the time, insist that he either replace the wraithknight with something else, or else, refuse the game.

That doesn't make wraithknights not a problem.

If my DW go first, they will make mince meat out of Magnus. They will turn him inside out and dance on his corpse, they haven't done the same to a WK (but to be fair, I have only faced one with DW a few times)

I think you're overeacting a bit here. Plus you're going off on GW marketing.
I seriously doubt he's going to be cutting down wraith knights en masse based on what we know so far.
Considering his stat-line with force, he would maybe kill one....maybe. And a wraith knight only needs a single six to kill magnus, for half his points.

Magnus won't be eating baneblades for breakfast either. He'll have maybe two psychic powers with strength D. Even with harnessing on a 2+ that's substantially worse than normal ranged D. He'll need to harness the warp charges, then not get denied AND not have to deal with sisters of silence or culexus'. Only then does even get to roll to hit.
He's not ahriman either, he can only cast those two powers and that's it.

I have a sneaking suspicion that he will be more of a force multiplier with the new tzeentch powers. They seem to have a detachment based on receiving blessing and the daemon tzeentch powers don't have any. He'll probably be decent but so far I'm not getting a must-have vibe from him. Not at 650 points.

And big units isn't bad per se, I just wish they would divide 40k more clearly in scale. And unrelated to even that, it's a model of a daemon primarch...F-YEA!
Oh and I wouldn't put too much stock into him getting the FW primarch special rule gift bag. It's GW, not FW. That said, I hope he does.

Boycott things that matter. If you don't like your toys get another hobby.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Okay. What's your point-for-point effective way to kill a Wraithknight?

Because Sternguard are not an OP unit. They're a damn good unit, but costed appropriately. What's your 300 point solution to a Wraithknight?

Feth if I know.

But if I really need to come up with one, even if I find one, that doesn't make a wraithknight not OP.

The fact that you can pull out a random option to deal with a given unit doesn't make that unit not OP.

Yes, if you put Magnus in plain sight with absolutely nobody around to block my drop pods from being able to land within 12 inches (and if you do, then rookie move on your part), and I go first or seize the initiative (the latter is more favorable, since you're more likely to deploy Magnus aggressively), then sure, I can potentially kill Magnus on turn 1 if I take this very specific unit combination.

But why should I have to do that?

This is what annoys me about 40k players:

They talk out of both sides of their mouth:

1. I DON'T LIKE LIMITATIONS! I WANT TO PLAY WHATEVER I WANT!
2. NO COMPLAINING! IF YOU TAKE THIS VERY SPECIFIC SNOWFLAKE COMBINATION, YOU CAN DEAL WITH IT!

Two Sternguard and three Drop Pods is not overly specific. It's a great all-rounder 545 points that's capable of handling a wide variety of threats. Coteaz is a bit more niche, agreed, but then again, Magnus is a 650 point model. My local store's agreement is that no single model should ever be more than about a third of your list, so that makes Magnus only available in 1850+ games (yes, technically it should be 1950, but 1850 is a far more common number) in which you really should have the power to take him on.

Right on the bottom right of the post, there's an exalt button.

I'd boycott it on account of how absurd I think it looks- if I had any reason to buy it that is. As I don't, I couldn't care less.

 CrownAxe wrote:
"Scale creep" is an opinion. it's not actually bad for the game, it just makes the game different. It's not inherently bad.

This I would dispute. There's a ton of stuff that flows from the scale of the game. A game that creeps too far from the scale the rules are designed for risks breaking the rules. Just look at D weapons and how they ignore a bunch of traditional interactions.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Right on the bottom right of the post, there's an exalt button.

Thank You!

I just don't get this thread.

One unit of Traktor Kannons will get a wound on him, and likely land him.

Then 4 medium units of choppa boyz will finish him off. Without nobz.

For less than 600 pts...of which the vast majority of the orks will survive to kill again.

Try that against a wraithnight and it won't even get a scratch.

I think i agree with whoever made the comment somewhere that super-heavies, gargantuans and possibly flyers don't belong in normal 40k but rather epic 40k or possibly apocalypse. Sadly we have a book where you can field an army of knights if you wish. That just astounds me considering that shield that boosts defenses in one direction that i saw one with. I do agree the big stuff is kinda dumb but instead of axe it perhaps they should move it into apocalypse or something or allow people to play more normal lists. If only i could set up a game with somebody at a FLGS rather than GW and just put restrictions on Gargantuans and super heavies i'd probably be fine with most of 40k.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Two Sternguard and three Drop Pods is not overly specific. It's a great all-rounder 545 points that's capable of handling a wide variety of threats. Coteaz is a bit more niche, agreed, but then again, Magnus is a 650 point model. My local store's agreement is that no single model should ever be more than about a third of your list, so that makes Magnus only available in 1850+ games (yes, technically it should be 1950, but 1850 is a far more common number) in which you really should have the power to take him on.

How would you kill it with an Imperial Guard list (using only Codex: Astra Militarum)?

A vanilla space marine list that doesn't use drop pods (and all units must be drawn from Codex: Space Marines)?

Gray Knights (and only gray knights)?

Imperial Knights (and only imperial knights)?

Tyrranids (and only tyrranids)?

Adepta Sororitas (all models must be drawn from the codex)?

Orks (all models must be drawn from the codex)?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And again, that 4++ rerollable is a joke. We all know that's going to be a 3++ rerollable or better in practice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gummyofallbears wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
The fact that there exists a way to (semi)-reliably kill a unit, even on turn 1, doesn't make that unit not-OP.

If I see that my opponent has a wraithknight, I can, 100% of the time, insist that he either replace the wraithknight with something else, or else, refuse the game.

That doesn't make wraithknights not a problem.

If my DW go first, they will make mince meat out of Magnus. They will turn him inside out and dance on his corpse, they haven't done the same to a WK (but to be fair, I have only faced one with DW a few times)

What if you go second?

What if Magnus is placed in reserves?

Horde armies dont have anything to worry about in low to medium point games (provide magnus is around 700 points) a successful tarpit with fealess models will lose any 1000 sons player half their army, remember, in 1500 point games your opponent has sinked half their points in 1 model. So long as your not playing purge the alien I suspect you wont have a hard time. If he is flying about casting spells he is hardly worth his point value considering the final FAQ states he can only cast as many powers up to his psyker level, meaning what, 5 powers per turn? Eldar are much more formidable. Where magnus shines is his crazy combat stats, any tzeench player knows improving that 4+ to a 2+ re-rollable is easy, it only requires 1 herald and 30 points of wargear. That is if you dont get lucky with the warpstorm table, then its eaven easier. So primarily to get his value you want him in combat. And wasting 2 to 3 turns killing 100 points of fearless models, which is easy to get in most horde armies could very well lose them the game.

The only armies that need to worry are the cheesy gakky armies, what, you want to bring 2 imperial knights? Sorry they are dead. You want to bring wraithknights? Sorry, dead. Superfriends? More like super dead. Any high points sink will increase magnus' value on the board.

We shouldnt boycott magnus, we should celibrate his arrival, underpowered codexes will rejoice as fenris burns along with gakky armies.