Why You Should Boycott Magnus the Red

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**wuestenfux**

I'm still wondering why GW made this model.
It looks terrible and has some weird rules.

**Dioxalyn**

Really not that big of a deal.. looking at him from a competitive standpoint.. Unless he gets Invis off im gonna be laughing as I 1 shot him out of the sky every time.. Sure he's scary in combat and by himself.. but you have an entire army to deal with him.. He's a huge investment and he SHOULD slaughter anybody he touches.. the point being IF he can touch them.. Any competent general can outplay a single model and completely deny him any chance to attack.

From a casual game standpoint? Your opponent better tell you he's bringing this guy beforehand. I would refuse to play a casual game if my opponent tried to spring this guy on me unannounced.

**Traditio**

Dioxalyn wrote:
Really not that big of a deal.. looking at him from a competitive standpoint..

Let me translate what you just said:

"Really not that big of a deal...when you look at him from the perspective of all of the OP, undercosted bullgak that you could cheese out your lists with."

. Any competent general can outplay a single model and completely deny him any chance to attack.

He's an FMC. FMCs can move.

From a casual game standpoint? Your opponent better tell you he's bringing this guy beforehand. I would refuse to play a casual game if my opponent tried to spring this guy on me unannounced.

Should there really be a divide between competitive and casual play?

Or should the game just be balanced so that you don't have to have a 30 minute discussion and establish a fething safe word just so that you can play an enjoyable game?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Peregrine wrote:
Traditio wrote:
Even then, the responsibility partly and indirectly falls on the consumers.

Then by that standard you are just as guilty. You buy 40k stuff, you post about 40k, you contribute to the idea that the current direction is worth continuing. GW doesn't see "well, this guy deliberately avoided Eldar and only bought tactical marines", they just see that 40k is continuing to sell. Either stop buying, playing, and discussing 40k or drop this ridiculous attempt to blame the customers for GW's actions.

So we have a restaurant, let's say:

Barbara's Best Burgers.

They sell burgers and fish heads.

Nobody buys fish heads.

People buy tons of burgers.

You think that they're going to keep selling fish heads for long?

**CrownAxe**

Traditio wrote:

Peregrine wrote:
Traditio wrote:
Even then, the responsibility partly and indirectly falls on the consumers.

Then by that standard you are just as guilty. You buy 40k stuff, you post about 40k, you contribute to the idea that the current direction is worth continuing. GW doesn't see "well, this guy deliberately avoided Eldar and only bought tactical marines", they just see that 40k is continuing to sell. Either stop buying, playing, and discussing 40k or drop this ridiculous attempt to blame the customers for GW's actions.

So we have a restaurant, let's say:

Barbara's Best Burgers.

They sell burgers and fish heads.

Nobody buys fish heads.

People buy tons of burgers.

You think that they're going to keep selling fish heads for long?

Except that for warhammer plenty of people are buying the fish heads. Nothing that GW puts out goes completely unsold

**Silver144**

Well, all we know right now is the statline for the carriage (t7, w7, rerollable 2++, flying ability - pretty much unkillable). So the main question how hard he will hit and will it be possible to ignor, or at least tarpit him for 6 turns. Also important to know, will he be able to cast this 2++ himself, or via heralds ally/csm psyker. In second case there will be chance to focus them first.

**Weboflies**

So I don't know if anyone already made this point, but...

He's a Daemon Primarch.

You shouldn't be able to take him out with tactical squads.

It's about time some of this stuff in the game started living up to the lore.

Hopefully he'll be a prohibitive amount of points, and if he isn't, hopefully ITC, and other tourneys will ban it.

Owning a model like that if the points aren't a reflection of it's power level will be a test of character. If (when?) I end up owning that, I wouldn't bring it to a pickup game unless I had another list without it, and gave my opponent the option to play whichever list he likes.

**Traditio**

Weboflies wrote:
So I don't know if anyone already made this point, but...

He's a Daemon Primarch.

You shouldn't be able to take him out with tactical squads.

Do a Daemon Primarch and tactical squads belong in the same game?

A daemon primarch and chaos cultists?

What about chaos cultists and warlord titans?

Let the fluff be what it may, but you are only illustrating my point about scale creep.

A daemon primarch and guardsmen do not belong in the same game.

I don't care what the bloody points costs are.

That's why everyone should boycott things like Magnus the Red, Wraithknights Stormsurges, etc.

At this point, it's too late to send a message to GW about wraithknights, etc.

But Magnus hasn't come out yet.

Just say no.

For the good of the game, just. say. no.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

CrownAxe wrote:You think that they're going to keep selling fish heads for long?

Except that for warhammer plenty of people are buying the fish heads. Nothing that GW puts out goes completely unsold

**SagesStone**

If he was a fgmc I'd understand the kneejerk a bit more and maybe join in, as he is it's like a daemon prince+. Will be annoying to deal with, but not a super game ender.

**Traditio**

n0t_u wrote:
If he was a fgmc I'd understand the kneejerk a bit more and maybe join in, as he is it's like a daemon prince+. Will be annoying to deal with, but not a super game ender.

The fact that he isn't a FGMC or have a 3+ or better armor save doesn't make him worse.

The fact that he doesn't have a 3+ or better armor save just makes him more resilent against grav, and the fact that he's not a FGMC just means that GW can get away with giving him a lower points cost.

Oddly enough, these things don't make him less of a problem. They make him more of a problem.

**ZebioLizard2**

Traditio wrote:
n0t_u wrote:
If he was a fgmc I'd understand the kneejerk a bit more and maybe join in, as he is it's like a daemon prince+. Will be annoying to deal with, but not a super game ender.

The fact that he isn't a FGMC or have a 3+ or better armor save doesn't make him worse.

The fact that he doesn't have a 3+ or better armor save just makes him more resilent against grav, and the fact that he's not a FGMC just means that GW can get away with giving him a lower points cost.

Oddly enough, these things don't make him less of a problem. They make him more of a problem.

...Are you serious?

**Traditio**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:...Are you serious?

Completely serious. Think about it.

If he had a 2+ armor, that means that grav wounds him on 2s and he saves on a 4++ rerollable or better.

The fact that he has a 4+ armor means that grav wounds him on 4s and he saves on a 4++ rerollable or better.

And yes, the fact that he's an FMC and not a FGMC could mean the difference between giving him a points cost that allows more people to play with him at a lower points cost...or not.

**SagesStone**

Traditio wrote:
n0t_u wrote:
If he was a fgmc I'd understand the kneejerk a bit more and maybe join in, as he is it's like a daemon prince+. Will be annoying to deal with, but not a super game ender.

The fact that he isn't a FGMC or have a 3+ or better armor save doesn't make him worse.

The fact that he doesn't have a 3+ or better armor save just makes him more resilent against grav, and the fact that he's not a FGMC just means that GW can get away with giving him a lower points cost.

Oddly enough, these things don't make him less of a problem. They make him more of a problem.

No, they really don't.

As a fgmc he'd be a nightmare, as a fmc he's an annoyance to all but the lowest armies which need help for other reasons to begin with. I'd be more worried to see a chaos knight most of the time.

Also if it's the tzeench daemon rerolls then it's only on 1s. Granted grimoire can boost it to a 2++ rerollable, but that's hardly a new strategy with tzeentch daemons and I'm sure people have picked that apart by now enough to be able to figure this one out shortly after his release.

**oldzoggy**

Mwha ha ha ha sorry but nope.
I am not going to boycot something just because you don't like it. I not you, some anonymous guy on the other side of the world decide what toys I play with ; )

**Traditio**

n0t_u wrote:
Traditio wrote:
n0t_u wrote:
If he was a fgmc I'd understand the kneejerk a bit more and maybe join in, as he is it's like a daemon prince+. Will be annoying to deal with, but not a super game ender.

The fact that he isn't a FGMC or have a 3+ or better armor save doesn't make him worse.

The fact that he doesn't have a 3+ or better armor save just makes him more resilent against grav, and the fact that he's not a FGMC just means that GW can get away with giving him a lower points cost.

Oddly enough, these things don't make him less of a problem. They make him more of a problem.

No, they really don't.
As a fgmc he'd be a nightmare, as a fmc he's an annoyance to all but the lowest armies which need help for other reasons to begin with. I'd be more worried to see a chaos knight most of the time.

Neither chaos knights nor a fething daemon primarch belongs in regular, non-apocalypse games.

#BoycottAllOfIt

**SagesStone**

Traditio wrote:
n0t_u wrote:
Traditio wrote:
n0t_u wrote:
If he was a fgmc I'd understand the kneejerk a bit more and maybe join in, as he is it's like a daemon prince+. Will be annoying to deal with, but not a super game ender.

The fact that he isn't a FGMC or have a 3+ or better armor save doesn't make him worse.

The fact that he doesn't have a 3+ or better armor save just makes him more resilent against grav, and the fact that he's not a FGMC just means that GW can get away with giving him a lower points cost.

Oddly enough, these things don't make him less of a problem. They make him more of a problem.

No, they really don't.
As a fgmc he'd be a nightmare, as a fmc he's an annoyance to all but the lowest armies which need help for other reasons to begin with. I'd be more worried to see a chaos knight most of the time.

Neither chaos knights nor a fething daemon primarch belongs in regular, non-apocalypse games.

#BoycottAllOfIt

Was I saying they did? I was saying there was already far more worrying things in the game at the moment than what caused this little overreaction which seems to boil down to "omg my grav weapons can't kill it in one turn". Which honestly is the problem of the lazy grav weapons to begin with, they act as a crutch.

**oldzoggy**

Also its not up to any space marine player to complain about over the top rules of chaos space marine supplements.

**Sgt_Smudge**

Traditio wrote:
Neither chaos knights nor a fething daemon primarch belongs in regular, non-apocalypse games.

#BoycottAllOfIt

In your opinion.

GW appears to disagree.
GW are making the models and rules.
You are attempting to persuade a small portion of the GW community to follow your option, with seemingly lacklustre results.

I think GW's direction might be the more powerful one here.

**Caederes**

Guys, Traditio is a well established troll that ignores every comment that destroys his poorly articulated arguments. Ignore him and move on. Unlike some other threads, practically no-one agrees with him here so it's clearly not worth pursuing.

And for the record, using all of the leaks we have so far, Magnus looks pretty cool but I wouldn't say he's over powered. Even if he's flying around, is 650 points worth it just for witchfire spam?

**Thousand-Son-Sorcerer**

So I'm seeing a lot of discussion on Magnus' save.

To be clear his 4++ comes from his "Crown" so it is not limited to 3++ the via MoT.

Next the Primas Power seems to be legit except it is +1 to invul saves.

There appears to be a formation that adds a +1 to your invul save if you have a "blessing" on any thousand Sons unit.

This means he can probably get a 2++ fairly easily and already rerolls 1's.

Assuming all the above is true it will take 252 caused wounds to kill Magnus.

To put that into perspective if you have 74 lascannons shooting at BS 5 it would take you 5 turns to kill him.

Just fruit for thought.

**Lou_Cypher**

I'd say he's a bit overpriced. At least compared to an underpriced Wraith knight.

Then again, I do wonder what kind of Psychic Powers are available? If gaze of Magnus is one Str D. Maybe there's another Str D on the Tzeentch table to have. And that's 2 shots of Sunny Ds hitting on 2s on a mobile platform that always has line of sight to everything.

It's be a balance trying to maximize what other 3 powers to use after them.

**NivlacSupreme**

His points cost doesn't seem that low. Horus is 500 points in 30k. Primarchs are supposed to be tough to deal with.

**Silver144**

Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
So I'm seeing a lot of discussion on Magnus' save.

To be clear his 4++ comes from his "Crown" so it is not limited to 3++ the via MoT.

Next the Primas Power seems to be legit except it is +1 to invul saves.

There appears to be a formation that adds a +1 to your invul save if you have a "blessing" on any thousand Sons unit.

This means he can probably get a 2++ fairly easily and already rerolls 1's.

Assuming all the above is true it will take 252 caused wounds to kill Magnus.

To put that into perspective if you have 74 lascannons shooting at BS 5 it would take you 5 turns to kill him.

Just fruit for thought.

Thats true, but we should wait and see will he be able to recoup his point price. Ofc if he will smash with d-str in melee and cast some insane amount of dmg he will be not "just annoing".

**Rosebuddy**

Weboflies wrote:
So I don't know if anyone already made this point, but...

He's a Daemon Primarch.

You shouldn't be able to take him out with tactical squads.

It's about time some of this stuff in the game started living up to the lore.

Hopefully he'll be a prohibitive amount of points, and if he isn't, hopefully ITC, and other tourneys will ban it.

Owning a model like that if the points aren't a reflection of it's power level will be a test of character. If (when?) I end up owning that, I wouldn't bring it to a pickup game unless I had another list without it, and gave my opponent the option to play whichever list he likes.

3rd edition daemon princes had T4 and a 5++ save. They could be boltered down easily. It kinda sucks but it is also kinda cool that tactical marines could genuinely stand up to something horrible. Flattening the power curve isn't always so bad. Plus the mismatch between the historical background and the actual reality is nice on its own. I think that part of the point of 40k should be that events have been twisted and exaggerated or outright fabricated over the thousands and thousands of years.

**SicSemperTyrannis**

This thread made me pre-order so hard.

**mmzero252**

*Puts on her tinfoil hat* What if Traditio is a GW plant sent here to trick us all into buying anything BUT space marines? Think about it...he pushes how OP everything else is compared to his generic marine mens every time something new comes out.

On topic though, I really feel like Magnus is going to cost a ton of points and easily be taken down by an Imperial Knight or two anyhow. I'm not afraid of it at all. They've already said he's the size of one which usually means a pretty hefty cost points-wise.

**SagesStone**

SicSemperTyrannis wrote:
This thread made me pre-order so hard.

Tempted to buy 2 now myself.

**Kaiyanwang**

wuestenfux wrote:
I'm still wondering why GW made this model.
It looks terrible and has some weird rules.

Is the opposite of what is a model I would buy, but many people loved it.

My curiosity lies n the TS themselves and if they re-did the rules, and are viable without formations. I have 3 old metal sorcerers, I could do something with the new releases.

**Blacksails**

Another productive thread from OP.

I'm sure this will fit nicely in your collection of locked threads.

**Kaiyanwang**

Blacksails wrote:
Another productive thread from OP.

I'm sure this will fit nicely in your collection of locked threads.

Traditio is a bit extremist but we players have a guilt for all the crap GW churns out. They went full giant models because people jumped at them.

Is difficult because people want different thing from this game, so many would not care for an overpowered or sucky Magnus because they would play once per year and mainly paint. Cannot blame them!

So even if traditio is radical, is analysis of the consequences of us buying this kind of stuff kind of rings true.

My only fear is GW stupidity. You see that if you boycott something that does not work, like happened with WHFB, they do not react fixing it. Is really frustrated, deal with GW is like dealing with an autistic child.

**ZebioLizard2**

Rosebuddy wrote:
Weboflies wrote:
So I don't know if anyone already made this point, but...

He's a Daemon Primarch.

You shouldn't be able to take him out with tactical squads.

It's about time some of this stuff in the game started living up to the lore.

Hopefully he'll be a prohibitive amount of points, and if he isn't, hopefully ITC, and other tourneys will ban it.

Owning a model like that if the points aren't a reflection of it's power level will be a test of character. If (when?) I end up owning that, I wouldn't bring it to a pickup game unless I had another list without it, and gave my opponent the option to play whichever list he likes.

3rd edition daemon princes had T4 and a 5++ save. They could be boltered down easily. It kinda sucks but it is also kinda cool that tactical marines could genuinely stand up to something horrible. Flattening the power curve isn't always so bad. Plus the mismatch between the historical background and the actual reality is nice on its own. I think that part of the point of 40k should be that events have been twisted and exaggerated or outright fabricated over the thousands and thousands of years.

Took me a moment to realize what you were talking about, the problem with such is that the idea of a Daemon Prince has changed since that time. Though I prefer 3.5's idea that its the amount of gifts that bolsters one up to the rank.