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 Pouncey wrote:

 Jackal wrote:
No, i'd call BS because your massively over the points limit.
Feel free to run a reaver though as that would fit.

I actually don't know the points value for an Emperor Titan. Imagine an Emperor Titan can fit into the points value of a standard game because it's been another 15 years and scale creep has made it so an Emperor Titan fits into a standard game.

Would you be fine with that?

Oooh if that was the case we'd be back in Epic! That'd be kinda neat actually, having armies of titans and troops representing squadrons instead of single models.

 Pouncey wrote:
I'm gonna give up. I don't think I can convince you guys of my point.

I do believe a lot of them are wilfully ignoring your point.

I get it though and do agree with you. Power scale is starting to get a bit ridiculous and it's changing the nature of the 40k Tabletop game entirely. I remember when something large was a centrepiece yet could still be dealt with (with trouble but not impossible) by a TAC army. Nowadays GW is putting out large centrepieces that need your opponent to tailor their entire army to deal with.
(For those who think this is just Imperial bias against Magnus - I like 1ksons, I don't like Space Marines in general, I write TAC lists before I even know which Faction I'm playing and I have a Daemon army).

This starts bleeding into the tailoring issue which is becoming even more prevalent in the community as a whole but that's another argument for another day.

I remember when Land Raiders were almost impossible for many armies to deal with.

Those players who didn't want to tailor their armies specifically against land raiders and didn't want to face a land Raider induced pasting got around this by asking their marine opponents to not use land raiders.

There have always been OP units in this game. What's changed is simply that people don't want to discuss the game with a prospective opponent, it seems.

 insaniak wrote:
What reason is there to not be fine with it?

The fact that they exist in the game doesn't force you to play against them... But does allow those who want to, to do so.

What's the reason to not be fine with rules bloat? If someone wants to use all the rules, just don't play against them...

See, there's a certain trend here. "Avoid confrontation with stuff you don't like" is a very escapist route. It will eventually result in isolation and decline.

Hi all.

I am less concerned about Magnus and the rest of the Thousand Sons releases due to power level than I am due to End Times Syndrome.

After an almost two-year hiatus from 40K, I am looking at getting back in with the limited edition of the Magnus book, the man himself, and a ton of new models.

But.

I bought into the End Times for Warhammer and spent all that money on books that are largely useless now. Don't get me wrong, I love AoS, but that was a lot of wasted cash on books (and attendant models) that I cannot find opponents to use them with now.

I am concerned that $200 on Wrath of Magnus and the models I want to use in those rules will be cast aside similarly.

Anyone else worried about that? It makes me want to "boycott" from a usefulness perspective, not a power one.

 koooaei wrote:

"Avoid confrontation with stuff you don't like" is a very escapist route.

Seems fairly appropriate where a hobby is concerned, then.

 insaniak wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

"Avoid confrontation with stuff you don't like" is a very escapist route.

Seems fairly appropriate where a hobby is concerned, then.

Sure, i'm not telling that you should riot and emidiately gather an angry crowd to linch everyone who tries to field a wraithknight or something. But at the same time i've got a feeling that the amount of games you're going to avoid with this approach is >90%. No tournaments, no pick up games, no broken psy powers (a lot of those allready), no broken units (got to also discuss with the opponent what's broken and what's not) and so on. It's getting out of hand, really.

Oh my. I started in 3rd.

1500 was quite common back then, that's true.

Land raiders were not overpowered. As terminators, they were just a bit more usable. The power level difference was there too, but not as big and placement and tactics still had a role, so you could do something with underperforming units with a plan and skill without being shot out of the table immediately. 40k system was never good, but was better back then.

Still, Storm Shields were 4+. Ward upped them to 3+ to make the termies usable, designers spammed them everywhere, and now they are a staple for many deathstars.

Also, you did not need 7135782532785 special rules to define a chapter, often designers changed how a SM chapter or CSM legion worked just limiting the access to stuff, removing 0-1 in exchange for that, and changing the way the sergeant worked or adding a small equipment piece. The game was subtle enough that this was enough to make the units feel different.

But this does sell less model than formations with "buy 2765372653 of this model"..

Also, @koooaei : I am the biggest fanboy for CSM ever, but you do not balance the game adding more broken stuff. I have to read again "b-but eldar have D" "b-bu SM can shoot it with.." well guess what, other faction have not the tools to face all this OP garbage.

But you can now get 80 horrors out of 10. 90 models to field a 90 pt unit. Seems legit.

 koooaei wrote:
But you can now get 80 horrors out of 10. 90 models to field a 90 pt unit. Seems legit.

This kind of summoning garbage is another thing that has to go. And will not, see new AoS rules.

In 3rd you had CSM with icons to call Daemons in. You could design your strategy around vessels for Greater Daemons and icons infiltration (with calculated risks, but it was a risk, not Phill Kelly's LOLRANDUMB IS CHAOS GUYS AMRITE? hack.). The way the army played, felt, was not "SM -1".

Now I am waiting some butthurt SM fan with the inevitable "b-but 3.5 was SM+1". Come on. Come here and spam the meme. I will EAT YOU ALIVE


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sleboda wrote:
Hi all.

I am less concerned about Magnus and the rest of the Thousand Sons releases due to power level than I am due to End Times Syndrome.

To me this looks like Magnus but smells like Nagash.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
But you can now get 80 horrors out of 10. 90 models to field a 90 pt unit. Seems legit.

This kind of summoning garbage is another thing that has to go.

It's not summoning - it's rules for the unit + locus of model selling.

I think summoning is in a good spot in AoS, cause unlike 40k's summoning still, you pay for the units and its like a form of reserve pool you can pick and choose from as needed. But one you need to pay for.

 n0t_u wrote:
I think summoning is in a good spot in AoS, cause unlike 40k's summoning still, you pay for the units and its like a form of reserve pool you can pick and choose from as needed. But one you need to pay for.

I got it completemy wrong from the "add more horrors" thing, in this case I apologise. But My point for 40k is still valid.

I still don't get why everyone is soo scared of this guy

Wait until he is out then decide if he is broken

Right now looking at his stat and cost I can easily say I would prefer to fight against Magnus than 2 wraith knights


The wraith knight still takes the spot of being the most ridiculously overpowered undercosted model

Magnus not being a gargantuan creature makes a hell of a difference
He is t7 so your boltguns can at least still wound him

He cant stomp
Poison/hellfire wound him easy
Snipers wound him easy
He doesn't appear to have FNP as standard like a GC
He can fly but that's what sky fire is for
He is a great psyker but it looks like he can't take any of the generic powers just tzeentch powers and his special power, so he isn't as flexible as fate weaver when it comes to psychic powers

For now I would easily prefer to face Magnus than
2 wraith knights
or fate weaver and a fully equipped lv3 lord of change with 50 points of rewards and a relic that allows him to flip power dices making sure he can pass any spell if you use the correct amount of dice.
they both fly, they generate more warp charge, they have up to 17 powers and fate weaver can get a 2++ re-rollable save from 1 Grimore

That might change when he is out but as it stand there are much worse things out there to play against

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
I think summoning is in a good spot in AoS, cause unlike 40k's summoning still, you pay for the units and its like a form of reserve pool you can pick and choose from as needed. But one you need to pay for.

I got it completemy wrong from the "add more horrors" thing, in this case I apologise. But My point for 40k is still valid.

Definitely is, you shouldn't be able to have a daemon factory for free. I wouldn't even mind if it was even easier to summon things, just as long as they weren't free.

 koooaei wrote:

Sure, i'm not telling that you should riot and emidiately gather an angry crowd to linch everyone who tries to field a wraithknight or something. But at the same time i've got a feeling that the amount of games you're going to avoid with this approach is >90%.

This approach worked just fine for me, and for a lot of other people, back in 2nd edition. And that was in a much smaller pool of players than I have available now.

No tournaments, no pick up games, no broken psy powers (a lot of those allready), no broken units (got to also discuss with the opponent what's broken and what's not) and so on. It's getting out of hand, really.

You're assuming that the same players are going to have issues with all of those things.

If you're at the point of chopping out large chunks of the game, you're probably better off looking for a different game. What I'm talking about is simply saying to a prospective opponent 'Hey, sorry, I don't want to play against [insert unit/army/power/whatever]'... at which point the two of you can reach some sort of compromise, play the game without that thing you don't like, or both go and find different opponents. It's really not as big a deal as people want to make it out to be, and the occasional player who might gt their nose out of joint because you don't want to face their killer unit is a small price to pay for not wasting your time playing out a game you're not going to enjoy.


Although tournaments, yeah... Speaking as someone who enjoyed the hell out of tournament play up to and including 5th edition, I honestly don't know why people still bother. 6th edition saw 40K give up any remaining pretense at being a suitable game for tournaments.

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
But you can now get 80 horrors out of 10. 90 models to field a 90 pt unit. Seems legit.

This kind of summoning garbage is another thing that has to go. And will not, see new AoS rules.

In 3rd you had CSM with icons to call Daemons in. You could design your strategy around vessels for Greater Daemons and icons infiltration (with calculated risks, but it was a risk, not Phill Kelly's LOLRANDUMB IS CHAOS GUYS AMRITE? hack.). The way the army played, felt, was not "SM -1".

Now I am waiting some butthurt SM fan with the inevitable "b-but 3.5 was SM+1". Come on. Come here and spam the meme. I will EAT YOU ALIVE

Yeah and free transports/upgrades for space marines/ad mech is totally fine

Summoning is the only thing daemons have to keep them in the meta with the other armies


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 n0t_u wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
I think summoning is in a good spot in AoS, cause unlike 40k's summoning still, you pay for the units and its like a form of reserve pool you can pick and choose from as needed. But one you need to pay for.

I got it completemy wrong from the "add more horrors" thing, in this case I apologise. But My point for 40k is still valid.

Definitely is, you shouldn't be able to have a daemon factory for free. I wouldn't even mind if it was even easier to summon things, just as long as they weren't free.

And you shouldn't be able to take transports for marines or admech upgrades/models for free

Rumors say that maybe the horrors will lost the option of use Daemonology.... If finally is true, will be a kick to the balls of chaos players, Since will lost the real source of summoning.


It wil lbe specially painful for chaos space marines who use daemons as allies and love summon more demons.

 insaniak wrote:
I remember when Land Raiders were almost impossible for many armies to deal with.

Haha yeh funny how things have changed.

Well. Luckily I don't particularly need to worry about this. In games we play even baneblade can be swatted by lone lascannon. Albeit odds aren't best ever but it's still possible.

Cuts down on cheese when there's nothing that takes something ridiculous like 1000+ shots to kill in average.

Meanmachine_5 wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
But you can now get 80 horrors out of 10. 90 models to field a 90 pt unit. Seems legit.

This kind of summoning garbage is another thing that has to go. And will not, see new AoS rules.

In 3rd you had CSM with icons to call Daemons in. You could design your strategy around vessels for Greater Daemons and icons infiltration (with calculated risks, but it was a risk, not Phill Kelly's LOLRANDUMB IS CHAOS GUYS AMRITE? hack.). The way the army played, felt, was not "SM -1".

Now I am waiting some butthurt SM fan with the inevitable "b-but 3.5 was SM+1". Come on. Come here and spam the meme. I will EAT YOU ALIVE

Yeah and free transports/upgrades for space marines/ad mech is totally fine

Summoning is the only thing daemons have to keep them in the meta with the other armies


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 n0t_u wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 n0t_u wrote:
I think summoning is in a good spot in AoS, cause unlike 40k's summoning still, you pay for the units and its like a form of reserve pool you can pick and choose from as needed. But one you need to pay for.

I got it completemy wrong from the "add more horrors" thing, in this case I apologise. But My point for 40k is still valid.

Definitely is, you shouldn't be able to have a daemon factory for free. I wouldn't even mind if it was even easier to summon things, just as long as they weren't free.

And you shouldn't be able to take transports for marines or admech upgrades/models for free

Free transports are not fine. Could you be so kind to point out WHERE in my posts I suggested this?
Free transports are the same problem. Like summoning, as koooaei pointed out above, is an excuse to force us to buy more models.

I said it many time and I will said it again: there are codices that are "have" and others that are "have-nots". Add more broken stuff does not fix the latter, it just enhances the escalation the game is suffering (it always suffered it, but now is out of control). The weakest will be left in the dust anyway.

Also, which army in 3rd had no tools to deal with land raiders

 insaniak wrote:


If you're at the point of chopping out large chunks of the game, you're probably better off looking for a different game. What I'm talking about is simply saying to a prospective opponent 'Hey, sorry, I don't want to play against [insert unit/army/power/whatever]'... at which point the two of you can reach some sort of compromise, play the game without that thing you don't like, or both go and find different opponents. It's really not as big a deal as people want to make it out to be

Here how it is here.

Sm + Libconclave psy deathstar
Ravenwing + Libconclave psy deathstar
Ravenwing + Libconclave psy deathstar + Support squadron
Khornedogs + sorconclave psy deathstar
Scatbikes + WK spam
Riptide wing + markerlights
Renegade artillery spam
Full imperial Knight army

Others play AOS.
That's what i can pick from. Unfortunately, i like 40k and footslogging orks. But i just have to pick mech + voidshields if i want to compete - running around psy deathstars waiting till they roll explictly badly and don't get invis off or i suddenly get a bunch of 6-s to deny or they die from perils - and scoring or rushing gunlines. Pretty one-dimensional. Other players don't have a lot of extra models to build alternative fun armies. One ravenwing player has a deathwing army but it looses badly to my footslogging orks and...basically anything else other than renegades as the renegade player hasn't bought enough bodies for baublewraps yet. There used to be an ork player but he shifted to SM+Libconclave. There are a few others but we don't get on time with them cause i'm working and they don't play on weekends.

The thing is there are no bad people here. Everyone's adequate and friendly but unless you invent a ton of houserules and waste a lot of time, you still can't play with 'what you like' in this enviroment. And why do you think they have all the stuff they're currently running? They wanted to buy a certain model they like and asked if it's any good. And it wasn't. They wanted to get another model and it happened to only be working if you build a list around it and it ends up as mediocre and easilly counterable - like Abaddon or any non-superheavy ork walker.

I'm trying to get some fun games off occasionally - but they usually involve either new players or killteam. I'm holding a campaing atm with some sort of scenario - i'll probably make a short report on the matter - and i've come across all the problems above. One side decided that it's campaing and it should be fun and picked all the crappy things they could master. Another side thought that it's campaing and it should be fun and picked artillery + sorconclave. It didn't end up as super fun after all. Seems that the next stage should require a ton of negotiations and restrictions for everyone to have fun.

Just a rant.

 Jackal wrote:
Ah i see, let me just grab my crystal ball :-)

And its because you said 4k was a standard game.
Scale creep does not effect the standard points of games.
It simply makes the models in the armies stronger.


So in 50 years time around 2k will still be the normal game, much as it always has been.
The units will simply be stronger for their price.

Ummm no standard game size is not set in stone.

When I started FB was 2000, 40k 1500.

I have seen for FB also 1999, 2250, 2400 and 2500 as tournament standards.

For 40k 1750 and 1850 have been new additions.

Funny thing is except for the 1999 boom(albeit shortlived) points tend to go up...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Weboflies wrote:
-To continue, the hobby needs to be able to bring new players in who are often kids, and often working people, with out the resources or give a feth to invest in a 4000 pt 3ft tall, $500 piece of plastic.

GW's sales have been flatting out in terms of # sold so the user base isn't that much increasing. And also has been showing in GW's release schedule. Only lately with start collecting boxes and board games has GW made any attempt of recruiting new players rather than selling more for old customers.

-at 4000 pts the amount of models you would need to fill that list if you were gonna go with a foot/ mech inf list would be completely prohibitive. Both from a perspective of time to paint/ collect, and time to finish a game.

That's why you bring in more big stuff. 4000 pts goes up fast when you bring in titans.

Funny thing is while tournament point standard has gone up model count hasn't been having similar % increase...

No there's no real limit except GW's imagination.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jackal wrote:
Your area plays (played) some fairly low point games then as tournaments have always been around 1850.

any lower and the game has no variety, any higher and it takes too long for some armies to actually play.

No it hasn't been always. Your always is very short term.

And you are thinking in terms of current meta and point costs. 1500 pts(which was tournament/pick up standard when I started) had more variety. Frankly then armies weren't that much copy&paste. Albeit might have been less of rules and more of lack of internet.

 koooaei wrote:

 insaniak wrote:


If you're at the point of chopping out large chunks of the game, you're probably better off looking for a different game. What I'm talking about is simply saying to a prospective opponent 'Hey, sorry, I don't want to play against [insert unit/army/power/whatever]'... at which point the two of you can reach some sort of compromise, play the game without that thing you don't like, or both go and find different opponents. It's really not as big a deal as people want to make it out to be

Here how it is here.

Sm + Libconclave psy deathstar
Ravenwing + Libconclave psy deathstar
Ravenwing + Libconclave psy deathstar + Support squadron
Khornedogs + sorconclave psy deathstar
Scatbikes + WK spam
Riptide wing + markerlights
Renegade artillery spam
Full imperial Knight army

B-but there are no differences between 6th and 7th edition.. i-is the same game!

I'm thinking on trying a orklexus kommando by this point. Will be hard with 'one eye open' but what else can i do without cutting down on orkses severely?

Pouncey wrote:Space Marine Chapter Masters have one too.

It's not even strength D and it misses 2/3s of the time.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pouncey wrote:Yes. You complained about all of those.

Yes. Yes they did.

The same people who whined about wraithknights are going to be the people who buy Magnus.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:
What reason is there to not be fine with it?

The fact that they exist in the game doesn't force you to play against them... But does allow those who want to, to do so.

Except, it potentially does. If I don't know what my opponent is playing in advance, it could very well be the case that I find myself watching my opponent deploy a Magnus.

This just increases the need to have that awkward pre-game conversation:

"Hey, want to play on so and so date?"

"Sure, what time and points limit?"

"1850 on Friday at 6 PM."

"Cool...what army are you playing?" [Note that this is already a taboo question.]

"Chaos Space Marines."

"Which faction?" [And now we're going into territory that is DEFINITELY taboo.]

"Thousand sons."

"Are you bringing Magnus?" [And now I'm asking about the details of a list. Great.]

"Yes."

"Yeah, on second thought, let's cancel that. I hear so and so is looking for a game!" [And now I look like a donkey cave.]

Boycotting Magnus is like boycotting an ig wivern.

 koooaei wrote:
Boycotting Magnus is like boycotting an ig wivern.

Hey those things are way too OP.......

 Traditio wrote:

Pouncey wrote:Yes. You complained about all of those.

Yes. Yes they did.

The same people who whined about wraithknights are going to be the people who buy Magnus.

Wait, you're going to buy Magnus too now?

 JNAProductions wrote:
Okay. What's your point-for-point effective way to kill a Wraithknight?

Because Sternguard are not an OP unit. They're a damn good unit, but costed appropriately. What's your 300 point solution to a Wraithknight?

Grav-cannon Skyhammer-Devs.

 Traditio wrote:

Pouncey wrote:Space Marine Chapter Masters have one too.

It's not even strength D and it misses 2/3s of the time.

You ever have a look at the Orbital Strike stuff from Witch Hunters?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Pouncey wrote:Yes. You complained about all of those.

Yes. Yes they did.

The same people who whined about wraithknights are going to be the people who buy Magnus.

Your phrasing indicates sarcasm, but your statement is factually correct. So that's a weird combination.

Yeah, see, for a lot of people, it's okay when they get to have crazy-powerful stuff, but they complain if their opponents have them and they don't.