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Nightbringer, Deceiver, and... Who?

Outsider and Void dragon are the main two. Void is on mars, Outsider is outside the universe (could be the thing chasing the tyranids in). There were many others which are now dead, example is the flayed one C'Tan

Lexicanum's list of names appears accurate:
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/C%27tan

However note that some of the information on the specific C'tan is not.
EDIT: And some of the more general information.

I'd possibly question the canonicity of Regiments of Renown as a source.
EDIT: Having tracked down Warhammer Visions #8, that source definitely isn't canon either! (Starkiller is just the name given to the C'tan by somebody who painted a Tesseract Vault).

Mudrat wrote:
Outsider is outside the universe

The Outsider is heavily implied to be in the sphere - Lyriax. This is inside the galaxy, and very definitely inside the universe (Codex: Necrons (3rd ed.), inside back cover).

In my head cannon (don't remember where I read it) for the old crons there were supposed to be seven surviving C'Tan, three of which were named (Void Dragon, nightbringer, and the deceiver). In new crons they go out of their way to not say how many there were outside quite a few. At a guess based on the lore saying the C'Tan masqueraded as the necron gods, I would think there is a greek pantheon sized lot of them, but that would be a pretty loose guess.

However many that was, there certainly weren't as many by the end of the war with the old ones, not only did the old ones probably knock off a few, the C'Tan were noted cannibals, and didn't get along with each other. Based on a very unreliable narrator (the deceiver), The C'Tan and the old ones had thrown down before and the old ones had beaten the C'Tan, which is why they had hidden themselves as beings without physical form and spent their days consuming stars. So there might have been a lot more of them once upon a time, and their original shape was likely very different than the living energy given form by the necrodermis. Or he could have just been spinning the necrontyr a line to get them to view the C'Tan as brothers in arms. My personal thought is he was telling at least a half truth, because the C'Tan had little reason to fight the old ones, but they were very willing to do so, and they knew what they needed to do to win.

There are many C'Tan and no, they're not dead. For each C'Tan there could be hundreds if not thousands of shards of that C'Tan, each with a distinct personality and percentage of the C'Tan's overall power. Who is to say that the shard that calls itself The Scorching Sands and the shard that calls itself the Endless Void are not both shards of the C'Tan once known as the Nightbringer.

Are all current C'Tan shards or are there any C'tan that are still 100 percent (no shards)

I think the Outsider is still whole as he fled before the Necrons sharded the C'Tan.

The Void Dragon also might be whole, depending on whether E-Money fought the whole C'Tan or just a shard.

As with most things 40k, it's not explicitly stated either way.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
I think the Outsider is still whole as he fled before the Necrons sharded the C'Tan.

The Void Dragon also might be whole, depending on whether E-Money fought the whole C'Tan or just a shard.

As with most things 40k, it's not explicitly stated either way.

White Dwarf 385, with an article written by Matt Ward, makes it clear that shards exist for both of the above. So if there is a whole C'Tan out there (which I personally don't think there is) it isn't one of the ones we know about.

Gotcha, good to know

 Grimgold wrote:
In my head cannon (don't remember where I read it) for the old crons there were supposed to be seven surviving C'Tan, three of which were named (Void Dragon, nightbringer, and the deceiver).

Pre-5th edition Codex: Necrons there were four C'tan - Nightbringer, Deciever, Void Dragon, Outsider - plus three unconfirmed which could all possibly have been the Deciever, but shards or different C'tan made more sense - from 'Dying Flame: Last Stand of the Firebrands' in White Dwarf 287 (UK), Dawn of War: Ascension, and 'The Scopios Incident'.

Plus there were 'Essences' as seem in Dawn of War: Dark Crusade and Dawn of War: Soulstorm.

jareddm wrote:
There are many C'Tan and no, they're not dead. For each C'Tan there could be hundreds if not thousands of shards of that C'Tan, each with a distinct personality and percentage of the C'Tan's overall power. Who is to say that the shard that calls itself The Scorching Sands and the shard that calls itself the Endless Void are not both shards of the C'Tan once known as the Nightbringer.

we know canonically at least the flayer was completely destroyed, no shards of him remain. Less canonically but still likely, If the necrons were capable of completely destroying one, it would follow the old ones were capable as well, and we know the black stone fortresses were one of many tools built for just such a thing. We also know they ate each other, and that after the initial victories against the old ones the C'Tan turned on each other.

So question about the Void Dragon


Big E defeated him and locked him up under Mars right...

I wonder if the Mechanics knows about this....because it wouldn't make sense, since Big E didn't meat the priests of mars until the beginning of the Great Crusade

That's the theory, and the emperor fought the dragon of mars right before the unification wars. As for Ad Mech, considering they are making weapons from pieces of the void dragon (The C'Tan phase blade as an example) It seems likely that the higher ups at least know he is there. The question is how far gone are the Ad Mech, is the void dragon the Omnissiah they worship, or is he an interesting bauble they study.

The Void Dragon is definitely sharded, Necron armies can purchase shards that grant its machine-controlling powers if they choose to.

If the AdMech weren't aware of the shard's presence on Mars before, they're almost certainly aware of it following the Necron raid on Mars.

Machine Spirits have been known to control devices all by themselves, and get finicky when you don't do very specific (and often nonsensical things).

Sound like a C'Tan that can control machines playing the long game trying to manipulate his way out of imprisonment?

 Grimgold wrote:
That's the theory, and the emperor fought the dragon of mars right before the unification wars. As for Ad Mech, considering they are making weapons from pieces of the void dragon (The C'Tan phase blade as an example) It seems likely that the higher ups at least know he is there. The question is how far gone are the Ad Mech, is the void dragon the Omnissiah they worship, or is he an interesting bauble they study.

Didn't he fought the Dragon during the middle ages (therefore becoming the figure of St. George) or at least before the Age of Strife ? So way before the Unification Wars anyway.

EDIT : confirmed http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Dragon_of_Mars : "According to Adept Semyon, one of the versions of the Dragon's memories shows him fighting the Emperor near the city of Cyrene, in Libya, around the 11th or 12th century (i.e., the first or second century M2), but also as a soldier serving Emperor Diocletian (who ruled from 284-305.M1), which implies that this battle is the origin of the story of Saint George and the Dragon.[1b]"

Engrenages wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
That's the theory, and the emperor fought the dragon of mars right before the unification wars. As for Ad Mech, considering they are making weapons from pieces of the void dragon (The C'Tan phase blade as an example) It seems likely that the higher ups at least know he is there. The question is how far gone are the Ad Mech, is the void dragon the Omnissiah they worship, or is he an interesting bauble they study.

Didn't he fought the Dragon during the middle ages (therefore becoming the figure of St. George) or at least before the Age of Strife ? So way before the Unification Wars anyway.

EDIT : confirmed http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Dragon_of_Mars : "According to Adept Semyon, one of the versions of the Dragon's memories shows him fighting the Emperor near the city of Cyrene, in Libya, around the 11th or 12th century (i.e., the first or second century M2), but also as a soldier serving Emperor Diocletian (who ruled from 284-305.M1), which implies that this battle is the origin of the story of Saint George and the Dragon.[1b]"

that's confirmed in the last church short story when the emperor sees a mural of st George and the dragon and has a sly smile.

 Psienesis wrote:
The Void Dragon is definitely sharded, Necron armies can purchase shards that grant its machine-controlling powers if they choose to.

None of the C'tan powers involve controlling machines (nor did they in the 5th edition Codex: Necrons).


Whether the Void Dragon even has machine controlling abilities (or if it does, if these abilities are unique to the Dragon) is unknown.

The closest you'd get would be the 'Beacon of the Void Dragon' which featured in Dawn of War: Dark Crusade (Thur'Abis Catacombs) which takes control of enemy vehicles, but then the beacons of the other C'tan don't directly translate into their abilities (the Beacon of the Deciever makes nearby units infiltrated, for example).

Necron abilities to subvert technology - for example the Destroyer Lords from Dawn of War: Dark Crusade and Dawn of War: Soulstorm, Subvert Machine stratagem from Apocalypse Reloaded (pg.70), Anrakyr's Mind in the Machine aren't linked to C'tan. The Necron's ability to control/manipulate human technology in Xenology would, if anything, be more likely linked to the Deciever ('Our master is a most talented deciever')

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Machine Spirits have been known to control devices all by themselves, and get finicky when you don't do very specific (and often nonsensical things).

Sound like a C'Tan that can control machines playing the long game trying to manipulate his way out of imprisonment?

The only time we've seen a direct confrontation between a machine spirit and Necrons - in Hellforged - the machine spirit was extremely hostile.

Engrenages wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
That's the theory, and the emperor fought the dragon of mars right before the unification wars. As for Ad Mech, considering they are making weapons from pieces of the void dragon (The C'Tan phase blade as an example) It seems likely that the higher ups at least know he is there. The question is how far gone are the Ad Mech, is the void dragon the Omnissiah they worship, or is he an interesting bauble they study.

Didn't he fought the Dragon during the middle ages (therefore becoming the figure of St. George) or at least before the Age of Strife ? So way before the Unification Wars anyway.

EDIT : confirmed http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Dragon_of_Mars : "According to Adept Semyon, one of the versions of the Dragon's memories shows him fighting the Emperor near the city of Cyrene, in Libya, around the 11th or 12th century (i.e., the first or second century M2), but also as a soldier serving Emperor Diocletian (who ruled from 284-305.M1), which implies that this battle is the origin of the story of Saint George and the Dragon.[1b]"

Note that Semyon specifically states that he doesn't know whether the account he gives/shows Dahlia in Mechanicum is true (in part or whole). Earlier in the book, Dahlia goes into some detail about how tales of dragon slaying are not to be taken literally.

LightKing wrote:
So question about the Void Dragon


Big E defeated him and locked him up under Mars right...

I wonder if the Mechanics knows about this....because it wouldn't make sense, since Big E didn't meat the priests of mars until the beginning of the Great Crusade

They kind of have a cult guarding the dragon and keeping it secret if I remember right. In general no one outside a very small amount even know the dragon exists.

 Lord Damocles wrote:


Whether the Void Dragon even has machine controlling abilities (or if it does, if these abilities are unique to the Dragon) is unknown.

Interesting, I wonder where this comes from then...

 Lord Damocles wrote:

The only time we've seen a direct confrontation between a machine spirit and Necrons - in Hellforged - the machine spirit was extremely hostile.

I wouldn't be best pleased with the upstart little robots after they betrayed me and shattered me into millions of shards.

I think I'll get my current army of oblivious tin men to annihilate them and start over...

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Interesting, I wonder where this comes from then...

There's no evidence that the (any) machine spirit has anything to do with the Void Dragon, so it's entirely irrelevant.

Apart from the fact that a shard of the Void Dragon was imprisoned on Mars, where all the techy bits are made...

Interesting that it's not mentioned in the fluff. Teach me for assuming something was true without seeking a source for it though

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Interesting, I wonder where this comes from then...

There's no evidence that the (any) machine spirit has anything to do with the Void Dragon, so it's entirely irrelevant.

True but what little information we have on the men of Iron shows them remarkably similarily looking to the Necrons. They also found their widespread use early in mankinds space endavours, soon after Mars was colonized. Incidentiliy they caused a galaxy wide civil war when they tried to wipe mankind from exsistence. It's all highly speculative but the void dragon is the only necron related artifact mankind would have had early acess to. What I'm getting at is that it's very likely the necron is the base for mankinds AI--->machine spirit.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
The Void Dragon is definitely sharded, Necron armies can purchase shards that grant its machine-controlling powers if they choose to.

None of the C'tan powers involve controlling machines (nor did they in the 5th edition Codex: Necrons).


Whether the Void Dragon even has machine controlling abilities (or if it does, if these abilities are unique to the Dragon) is unknown.

The closest you'd get would be the 'Beacon of the Void Dragon' which featured in Dawn of War: Dark Crusade (Thur'Abis Catacombs) which takes control of enemy vehicles, but then the beacons of the other C'tan don't directly translate into their abilities (the Beacon of the Deciever makes nearby units infiltrated, for example).

Necron abilities to subvert technology - for example the Destroyer Lords from Dawn of War: Dark Crusade and Dawn of War: Soulstorm, Subvert Machine stratagem from Apocalypse Reloaded (pg.70), Anrakyr's Mind in the Machine aren't linked to C'tan. The Necron's ability to control/manipulate human technology in Xenology would, if anything, be more likely linked to the Deciever ('Our master is a most talented deciever')

 Ynneadwraith wrote:
Machine Spirits have been known to control devices all by themselves, and get finicky when you don't do very specific (and often nonsensical things).

Sound like a C'Tan that can control machines playing the long game trying to manipulate his way out of imprisonment?

The only time we've seen a direct confrontation between a machine spirit and Necrons - in Hellforged - the machine spirit was extremely hostile.

Engrenages wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
That's the theory, and the emperor fought the dragon of mars right before the unification wars. As for Ad Mech, considering they are making weapons from pieces of the void dragon (The C'Tan phase blade as an example) It seems likely that the higher ups at least know he is there. The question is how far gone are the Ad Mech, is the void dragon the Omnissiah they worship, or is he an interesting bauble they study.

Didn't he fought the Dragon during the middle ages (therefore becoming the figure of St. George) or at least before the Age of Strife ? So way before the Unification Wars anyway.

EDIT : confirmed http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Dragon_of_Mars : "According to Adept Semyon, one of the versions of the Dragon's memories shows him fighting the Emperor near the city of Cyrene, in Libya, around the 11th or 12th century (i.e., the first or second century M2), but also as a soldier serving Emperor Diocletian (who ruled from 284-305.M1), which implies that this battle is the origin of the story of Saint George and the Dragon.[1b]"

Note that Semyon specifically states that he doesn't know whether the account he gives/shows Dahlia in Mechanicum is true (in part or whole). Earlier in the book, Dahlia goes into some detail about how tales of dragon slaying are not to be taken literally.

Except in the last church, written after mechanicum, shows the emperor remembering the event, it may not have happened as dalia was shown, but it happened somehow, big E getting the dragon to mars is the bigger mystery here.

 Formosa wrote:
Except in the last church, written after mechanicum, shows the emperor remembering the event, it may not have happened as dalia was shown, but it happened somehow, big E getting the dragon to mars is the bigger mystery here.

Erm, yeah. That's what I (and Semyon) was saying.

The Emperor defeated the Void Dragon when He fought under Diocletian in Lybia, locked it under the brithish isles and transported it to mars MUCH later, probably when humans first settled there. Also, the Void Dragon states that the C'tan devour each other, or at least asks Dalia if "the others have eaten everything", implying that the C'tan have devoured more than one galaxy before.

Ad Mech is def aware of the void dragon but many treat it as myth. The canyon/cave system where it is trapped is walled off and guarded. All of this is mentioned in the Lords/Priests/Gods of Mars series.

******SPOILER******

Anyone have any speculation which shard powers the Breath of Gods?.............