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From what I can tell, we can apply traitor legion bonus rules with the traitor's hate rules.
We can do that atm with our supplements, but these will hopefully be a little more involved than a forcing VotLW.

TSons already get bonus invulnerable saves and free VotLW, which is already a huge step up from needing to pay for VotLW and getting nothing in return.
The hatred bonus vs space wolves is minor, but still.

I'm pretty confident that we'll be seeing a nurgle campaign book with mortarion eventually and no doubt new death guard units at that point. I don't expect them to be in the traitor legion supplement though. I'm guessing we're getting 2 pages per legion. Artifacts, warlord traits and special rules and maybe tactical objectives.
Any detachments will probably be limited to TSons, though we might get updated god disciplines since those don't require models.
I could imagine them handing out additional FnP and other army wide buffs. As opposed to, say, normal peril on malific for word bearers. Wouldn't be surprised to see them be conditional like with TSons tough.

I'd say TSons are in a pretty good place right now. Very fluffy from I can tell and they seem to be balanced reasonably enough. A full TSons/horrors army could probably put out a couple of D shots and with that being a beam you're likely to roll the odd 6. But even without the new units, the free buff of invulnerable save on top of traitor's hate formations seems pretty decent. You can still take other marks, it just requires juggling detachments/formations.

I'd like to think the supplement would cement us firmly in middle to upper middle tier competitively, but it's already the mother of fluff upgrades and puts us up there in normal games.
I'd LOVE to see a deathguard campaign release with mortarion at this points and I don't even play nurgle lists.

Well they are probably getting ready for a semi-End Times for 40k. I just hope the changes aren't as awful as they were for poor Fantasy. What happened to my poor Fantasy :=(?

I figure if nothing else the next book will boost their power level much higher. Maybe not in the top 6 armies but they already can give my dark eldar some trouble with traitor's hate with double shoot termies on deep strike and the cultist spam with 4+ to come back and ambush. I just hope dark eldar aren't shoved to the sidelines if 40k End Times happens though judging that they're not in the main fight they probably will be. That said their pocket shadow realm is about to implode with daemons which isn't a good thing so that storyline might progress.

It would have to do some fairly amazing things to put them into the top 6, Because even after traitors hate CSM are still overcost by quite a bit. The rules teasers for Magnus lean that way, but if he is too crazy he will get banned from tournaments.

This is going to be like Imperial Guard getting formations - a very marginal bump for a fundamentally weak Codex.

Bumped up to KDK level I'd say, but not past that

FWIW I think that would be a good place. KDK seems like a good power level that lets you compete with just about everything except the really tough factions out there

On a scale from 1 to 10, I guess "repackaged garbage/10".

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
This is going to be like Imperial Guard getting formations - a very marginal bump for a fundamentally weak Codex.

Couldn't have put it better.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
This is going to be like Imperial Guard getting formations - a very marginal bump for a fundamentally weak Codex.

From what we can tell allready, it's going to be something bigger than ig-ork style releases that just add a bunch of ignorable formations and 1-2 good ones (not in case of orks if you ask me, but IG got a few decent new ones).

For example, there's a relic that makes any friendly (including allies) unit within 12" move like Jump infantry. Free Votlw and +1 inv for Votlw if you also take MoT. So, csm could kinda get 3++ jump termies. It'd not be game-breaking but actually quite fun.
Detachment with specific 3.5 style restrictions. New gear options.

 koooaei wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
This is going to be like Imperial Guard getting formations - a very marginal bump for a fundamentally weak Codex.

From what we can tell allready, it's going to be something bigger than ig-ork style releases that just add a bunch of ignorable formations and 1-2 good ones (not in case of orks if you ask me, but IG got a few decent new ones).

For example, there's a relic that makes any friendly (including allies) unit within 12" move like Jump infantry. Free Votlw and +1 inv for Votlw if you also take MoT. So, csm could kinda get 3++ jump termies. It'd not be game-breaking but actually quite fun.
Detachment with specific 3.5 style restrictions. New gear options.

Better than the Dark eldar new book. Let's get rid of all the awesome unique stuff, take away most heroes, get rid of grenades on most assault units and replace with crappier stuff and then have one formation that only adds +1 to the power from pain table.

Don't get me wrong i can still handle orks and IG with them but so can most armies these days.

A question, the relic that makes any friendly (including allies) unit within 12" move like Jump infantry affects non battlebrothers allies?

guess no...but think is important....because 30 ork boyz with warboss or a medik moving 12.... (I have csm and orks haha)

About the traitor legions, after a lot of desilusions on rules (the models rocks) I leaned to never have hope on new chaos stuff from GW (neither ork haha), so I dont spect anything good from this hhahaha

Franarok wrote:
A question, the relic that makes any friendly (including allies) unit within 12" move like Jump infantry affects non battlebrothers allies?

guess no...but think is important....because 30 ork boyz with warboss or a medik moving 12.... (I have csm and orks haha)

Jumping Greentide. Now there must be a way to give greentide hit and run...

you dont need hit and run, if you use a greentide of 100 orks (surely with feel no pain, fearless and a +1 to WS from CGs) and assault with them to something....if the enemy is not dead better prayse gork and mork, because he is a monster xD

but indeed if that works with all allies... 100 jump orks is scary

Franarok wrote:
you dont need hit and run, if you use a greentide of 100 orks (surely with feel no pain, fearless and a +1 to WS from CGs) and assault with them to something....if the enemy is not dead better prayse gork and mork, because he is a monster xD

but indeed if that works with all allies... 100 jump orks is scary

Not really. An invisible wraithknight would take a wound or two.

hahaha, the solution is dont play with superheavies neither gargantuan creatures. Is what we do on our circle game.


You will be surprised about HOW MUCH the game improves by not allowing them. They only break the delicated balance of the game. And dont make games more fun at all, no mention there are armies that are close to an autolose if the rival has one.

Franarok wrote:
hahaha, the solution is dont play with superheavies neither gargantuan creatures. Is what we do on our circle game.


You will be surprised about HOW MUCH the game improves by not allowing them. They only break the delicated balance of the game. And dont make games more fun at all, no mention there are armies that are close to an autolose if the rival has one.

If around 30 orks + 7 klaws - a standard amount of boyz and max klaws you'd expect striking simultaniously in a greentide - want to kill an invisible unit of conscripts with a priest - that's around 10 dead conscripts. So, ~30 pt of conscripts. Provided they get a hymn for re-rollable 5+ armor off, if they don't, it's 2-3 more dead conscripts - that's around 36-39 pts. If a squad of 50 conscripts fires overwatch with at least half models in rapidfire range and than strikes back, they kill around 4-5 orks after armor and fnp, that's 26-30 pt of orks.

If you want fairness, gargants are not as bad as wizards.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
This is going to be like Imperial Guard getting formations - a very marginal bump for a fundamentally weak Codex.

Sadly, this will likely be correct.

Still better than Orks, though! Right? I mean, feth those guys!




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Franarok wrote:
because 30 ork boyz with warboss or a medik moving 12.... (I have csm and orks haha)

Spoke too soon! Franarok, digging where there are taters!

JohnHwangDD wrote:This is going to be like Imperial Guard getting formations - a very marginal bump for a fundamentally weak Codex.

That is also accompanied by a brand new Codex(Thousand Sons), which has a Multiformation Detachment where the Cores are not going to eat up nearly 1k points and require 160+ models.

koooaei wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
This is going to be like Imperial Guard getting formations - a very marginal bump for a fundamentally weak Codex.

From what we can tell allready, it's going to be something bigger than ig-ork style releases that just add a bunch of ignorable formations and 1-2 good ones (not in case of orks if you ask me, but IG got a few decent new ones).

For example, there's a relic that makes any friendly (including allies) unit within 12" move like Jump infantry. Free Votlw and +1 inv for Votlw if you also take MoT. So, csm could kinda get 3++ jump termies. It'd not be game-breaking but actually quite fun.
Detachment with specific 3.5 style restrictions. New gear options.

Just to be clear, that's for Thousand Sons only. We don't know what the others are getting in Traitor Legions.

I think it's safe to say that Black Legion's stuff will be a reprint of the Codex of the same name, but what Night Lords get? Iron Warriors? World Eaters? It's anyone's guess.

Hell Alpha Legion could get a relic that makes it so you have to switch armies with your opponent.

Well, technically, if you're insanely reach and crazy, you can insta win games with just spamming pink horrors from this book. But you won't manage to finish games. Ever.

The csm part is...well, it's hard to say. It's playable - let's put it this way. One thing is that it's infinitely better than mono-tzeench you could run before. It's extremely expensive but potentially neat as it's very durable and there are wizards everywhere.

I suspect the new CSM stuff will work out like this:

Thousand Sons: Very fluffy, very expensive 'dex with 1 viable build (Daemons) and Magnus will be the most OP thing ever released in 40K (but rightly so!).

Legions: Fluffy rules, but nothing of note, plus some average formations, lack of DP/Razorbacks/Grav is still the issue, and will always BE the issue.

Overall, the power-level will stay the same I suspect. If any legion was going to have their power increased I would have put bets on Thousand Sons (Psyker spam + AP3 weapons) but it's not looking that way.

I actually don't know why they don't just re-do the entire CSM codex -with- the Legion stuff in it (Like SM Chapter Tactics).

O wait.

That would be one less book we'd have to buy.

OOOOHHH I get it now. GW are crafty no?

This is better than the IG release though. Traitor's hate would be comparable to that, a marginal bump.
But this supplement adds rules on top of those. And in addition to that, even if it's only for TSons, we just got new units.
And unless the relics state that it's only for units in that detachment, we can cross pollinate them. So maelstrom Kharn can get a 27 inch charge range and who knows what else we get with traitor legions.
Same with Warlord traits, I thought the TSons got some pretty good ones.

We now have IA 13, new TSons units and formations and gear and soon army wide buffs and artifacts for each legion and Traitor's hate. And all sorts of knights. Plus daemons got their share of updates too and we still have our khorne dogs.
And like I said, I have no doubt we'll see mortarion before long.
In a way not competing with the top tier codexes is a good thing, because they're mostly top tier due to some totally broken stuff. I think CSM is at a mostly healthy place right now.
We can make fluffy and reasonably strong lists now. And we have like 3 or 4 different options for hordes, not including renegades and heretics.

We still need a new base dex and they really should reign in things like the wraith knight and the bs that is the cost of the khorne mower, but CSM now is a huge step up from our vanilla dex only.
If nothing else we have left the bottom feeder tier for good. We can't still can't compete with the top tier, but maybe on a good day we can get close now.

it depends on who writes it. it could be 2000 free points of everything or it could be fear on 1 model per army. hard to tell.

What i want to know is why they keep releasing chaos supplements, it's really obvious they need a whole new codes, but instead they keep releasing supplement that are wonky together and that i suspect in 2 months will all be made obsolete by an actual new codex and you'll have a nice paper-weight.

 Roknar wrote:
This is better than the IG release though. Traitor's hate would be comparable to that, a marginal bump.
But this supplement adds rules on top of those. And in addition to that, even if it's only for TSons, we just got new units.
And unless the relics state that it's only for units in that detachment, we can cross pollinate them. So maelstrom Kharn can get a 27 inch charge range and who knows what else we get with traitor legions.
Same with Warlord traits, I thought the TSons got some pretty good ones.

We now have IA 13, new TSons units and formations and gear and soon army wide buffs and artifacts for each legion and Traitor's hate. And all sorts of knights. Plus daemons got their share of updates too and we still have our khorne dogs.
And like I said, I have no doubt we'll see mortarion before long.
In a way not competing with the top tier codexes is a good thing, because they're mostly top tier due to some totally broken stuff. I think CSM is at a mostly healthy place right now.
We can make fluffy and reasonably strong lists now. And we have like 3 or 4 different options for hordes, not including renegades and heretics.

We still need a new base dex and they really should reign in things like the wraith knight and the bs that is the cost of the khorne mower, but CSM now is a huge step up from our vanilla dex only.
If nothing else we have left the bottom feeder tier for good. We can't still can't compete with the top tier, but maybe on a good day we can get close now.

Great post, but I disagree on a few tiny points. I think we can *almost* compete with the top dexs now. It will be a uphill battle because GW is not fixing the core issue with the faction and that is how everything is far more expensive points wise than it should be. We wont be getting a dex until 8th or when/if WH40k goes age of derpmar. We have good tools now for dealing with some of the most broken aspects of the game. Im still a die hard fan of the raptor talon + hel drake combo. One of our overlooked weapons is giving negatives to leadership which in turn amps up things like the raptor talon and scream cabals. I dont think well be able to run basic marines or use some of the bad units such as mutilators and zerkers. I dont think mutliators can ever be fielded as a SnP assault unit is a just a bad idea. Im hoping they trim down the formation sizes for Tsons and legions seeing as most of the stuff in traitors hate is far to bloated to be brought to anything other than a casual game. I mean look at the cult of destruction. Fielding that formation will take half of your points in a 1850 game thus limiting its use.

Otherwise great post, I enjoyed reading it. Have an exalt.

Table wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
This is better than the IG release though. Traitor's hate would be comparable to that, a marginal bump.

Im hoping they trim down the formation sizes for Tsons and legions seeing as most of the stuff in traitors hate is far to bloated to be brought to anything other than a casual game. I mean look at the cult of destruction. Fielding that formation will take half of your points in a 1850 game thus limiting its use.

Unlike that IG Infantry core Formation that requires over 160 models and eats over half your points in a 1850 pt game?

Thanks for the kind words, much appreciated .
At least the Traitor's hate formations are malleable to an extent with the legion rules, unlike the IG formation.

I agree though, I would really like to see more role based detachments. Or smaller formations. The Black Legion supplement formations are more acceptable in size for example.
I still think forgeworlds purge detachment is pretty nice and fluffy.

That's not a csm problem though. That's an issue across all armies. I also dislike how all these formations interfere with forgeworld units. Although some armies get it worse than others, like IG. I don't actually know anything about that formation but I've heard people complain about it a few times now.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Table wrote:

 Roknar wrote:
This is better than the IG release though. Traitor's hate would be comparable to that, a marginal bump.

Im hoping they trim down the formation sizes for Tsons and legions seeing as most of the stuff in traitors hate is far to bloated to be brought to anything other than a casual game. I mean look at the cult of destruction. Fielding that formation will take half of your points in a 1850 game thus limiting its use.

Unlike that IG Infantry core Formation that requires over 160 models and eats over half your points in a 1850 pt game?

Yes, but we are not talking about the guard . They need formation trimming just as much.

Edit : They need love period at this point. But I think mostly whats needed for the guard is a overall buff to AV units. RIght now its just to easy to bust tanks for most armies. Im not sure if the guard has access to armored ceremite (spelling) but Im loving that the Imp Armor 13 stuff (more than half) has access to it. WIth AC you can at least counter the melta spam. Lances, still no such luck.

My guess: Great against things that don't have a ton of marine-killer equipment, mid-tier against everyone else.

 Melissia wrote:
My guess: Great against things that don't have a ton of marine-killer equipment, mid-tier against everyone else.

Kidna flip that around. Since most lists dont run marines. And I dont see that changing until 8th.

Same as same. CSM just don't get anylove.