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 Vector Strike wrote:
Havocs at 2++? MoT doesn't allow the invul to be better than 3++

You dont use the MOT to get to 2++ you use the 4++ invul from Skyshield landing pad, cast Sanctuary bringing you to 3++, and then Blessing of Tzeentch drops it to 2++.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:


Also, OP: the profile of the sons remained unchanged? I was expecting they re-introduced the 2 wounds or lowered the costs... al this nostalgia, Jeanstealer Cults and whatnot, and no 2W TS?

Nope, still 1W, still SnP, and still 23 Points. They added S4 AP4 Flamers for 7 points but on SnP models, its not much of an upgrade. The Soul Reaper Cannon is S5 AP3 Heavy 4 Rending but requires 10 in the squad and costs 25 points.

How many flamers a unit can take, and could one MSU with flamers? Still, is 30 pt/model. The costs are all over the place again.

As stated, PhilKellied.

As many Flamers as you want, but even a min squad will cost you 178 points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Raven Guard players, using their unique Detachment presented in "Angels of Death", have it worse than Blood Angels did before their recent update.

The Detachment prevents you from taking any Psykers, any Centurions, and to top it off?
Your "Chapter Tactics" apply only to units with Jump Packs or those units that are on the field and not in a transport/building before the second turn.

Okay this is a bit misleading, What are the actual chapter tactics? The latter adds shrouded to your units on top of that you get a +1 to night fighting so getting a 2++ on any scouts is very doable. The former "only applies to units with jump packs" because it only affects jump pack units, they get to move with jump packs in BOTH the movement and assault phases and gain shred on HoW attacks. Its specifically designed to have you make a fluffy army. Bring scouts for troops choices infil them opt for night fighting have 2-4 units with a 2++ cover save the first turn, then have your Jump Units move in quickly to take out the enemy. The HoW having shred is amazing since they are S4 auto hit attacks, even 6 will make it so that an enemy marine player is losing 1-2 models before he gets to attack at all.

In short Turn 1 you LOS all your jump units so the enemy has to shoot at your 2+/3+ cover save scouts, losing minimal. Turn two if you didn't run you should be 24" farther forward which should put you well within range for a charge.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Skerr wrote:
I think this is a great release. Model wise and rule wise.

Cannot wait to play test.

No they are not invincible and are 23 pts though still very workable if you focus on Sorcery being your strategy and not power armor.

Looking forward to Bat Reps.

The problem with Psychic as a main state is that it is unreliable at best. You end up having to spend 400 points to get a single spell unless your going for Primas Powers. On the whole it would be doable if you just paid a bit less, but since you pay just as much, and sometimes more, for psykers that can be sniped out of squads your going to end up losing most of your games. It won't take long for people to realize that all they need to do is get rid of certain sorcerers to totally cripple your army.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
The problem with Psychic as a main state is that it is unreliable at best.

Nonetheless, that's kind of their thing.

Why not look at how to make your psychic phase effective, then?

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Raven Guard players, using their unique Detachment presented in "Angels of Death", have it worse than Blood Angels did before their recent update.

The Detachment prevents you from taking any Psykers, any Centurions, and to top it off?
Your "Chapter Tactics" apply only to units with Jump Packs or those units that are on the field and not in a transport/building before the second turn.

Okay this is a bit misleading, What are the actual chapter tactics? The latter adds shrouded to your units on top of that you get a +1 to night fighting so getting a 2++ on any scouts is very doable.

Yeah, it's not misleading at all.That's the exact wording. You do not get the "Strike From the Shadows" benefit unless you are on the table AND not in a transport.

The former "only applies to units with jump packs" because it only affects jump pack units, they get to move with jump packs in BOTH the movement and assault phases and gain shred on HoW attacks.

Oh noes, Shred on HoW attacks. Suuuuuuuuper impressive!

How do you make HoW attacks again?
By charging.
What happens if you charge?

Its specifically designed to have you make a fluffy army.

"Fluffy" for Raven Guard would be them infiltrating their whole army and forcing the enemy player to immediately remove their HQs from play.

Jump units != the Raven Guard fluff. They use Assault and Vanguard Marines as part of traps complex enough to best coined as "labyrinthine".

Bring scouts for troops choices infil them opt for night fighting have 2-4 units with a 2++ cover save the first turn,

Do you even know how the Raven Guard detachment works? There's no "Scouts for Troop choices" when fielding a Talon Strike Force.

then have your Jump Units move in quickly to take out the enemy. The HoW having shred is amazing since they are S4 auto hit attacks, even 6 will make it so that an enemy marine player is losing 1-2 models before he gets to attack at all.

Do you know how Overwatch works?
I don't think you know how Overwatch works.

In short Turn 1 you LOS all your jump units so the enemy has to shoot at your 2+/3+ cover save scouts, losing minimal. Turn two if you didn't run you should be 24" farther forward which should put you well within range for a charge.

Lol okay. Try that sometime and see how it works out for you. Hint: not well.

 Kanluwen wrote:


Lol okay. Try that sometime and see how it works out for you. Hint: not well.

Kanlunven, respectfully, this is "out of character" from you. You are derailing the thread because of a specific loyalist legion.


@Thousand-Son-Sorcerer: let's try to be constructive. Perhaps we can split TS units in counter-attack flamers and units with the cannon? could one build a reasonable list with like 2 MSU, 2 10 marine units as troops, 4 rhinos and many sorceres? doable? is 3 boxes... gors as obj grabbers... daemon allies... or cabal... what can be done?

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
Havocs at 2++? MoT doesn't allow the invul to be better than 3++

You dont use the MOT to get to 2++ you use the 4++ invul from Skyshield landing pad, cast Sanctuary bringing you to 3++, and then Blessing of Tzeentch drops it to 2++.

I was under the impression that BoT only triggers if the unit has MoT or is a DoT?

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
Havocs at 2++? MoT doesn't allow the invul to be better than 3++

You dont use the MOT to get to 2++ you use the 4++ invul from Skyshield landing pad, cast Sanctuary bringing you to 3++, and then Blessing of Tzeentch drops it to 2++.

In order to have Blessing of Tzeentch they're going to have to take MoT

 Vector Strike wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
Havocs at 2++? MoT doesn't allow the invul to be better than 3++

You don't use the MOT to get to 2++ you use the 4++ invul from Skyshield landing pad, cast Sanctuary bringing you to 3++, and then Blessing of Tzeentch drops it to 2++.

I was under the impression that BoT only triggers if the unit has MoT or is a DoT?

No it's a separate special rule you get for meeting all their requirements, and factoring in the MoT stops you at 3++. Taking things that increase your invul to 2++ outside of MoT means its still 2++. I really don't see anyone arguing the point since you're paying for a buff that you are not using. Even if that is the case you can get a 3++ by simply putting the models on the Landing Pad which is good in and of itself, since it guaranteed, only costs 75 points and gives your units a good vantage point to fire from.


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 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:


Lol okay. Try that sometime and see how it works out for you. Hint: not well.

@Thousand-Son-Sorcerer: let's try to be constructive. Perhaps we can split TS units in counter-attack flamers and units with the cannon? could one build a reasonable list with like 2 MSU, 2 10 marine units as troops, 4 rhinos and many sorceres? doable? is 3 boxes... gors as obj grabbers... daemon allies... or cabal... what can be done?

for just the units and not the rhinos its 936 points with the rhinos, with the Rhinos it goes to 1070 and you still have no HQ.

Right now its looking like the best way to run the army is with 2 units with Cannons in high positions and some fodder units that are benefiting from Telekine Dome (get you to 3++ in a 12" aura). Cast Prescience on the Cannon units to give them a 3++ and use the units to wipe out a squad a turn from just about any army. Use the Fodder units (probably Tzzangors, in the formation maxed to get the reroll) to push forward and slow/stop enemy units. while holding objectives.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:
Havocs at 2++? MoT doesn't allow the invul to be better than 3++

You don't use the MOT to get to 2++ you use the 4++ invul from Skyshield landing pad, cast Sanctuary bringing you to 3++, and then Blessing of Tzeentch drops it to 2++.

I was under the impression that BoT only triggers if the unit has MoT or is a DoT?

No it's a separate special rule you get for meeting all their requirements, and factoring in the MoT stops you at 3++. Taking things that increase your invul to 2++ outside of MoT means its still 2++. I really don't see anyone arguing the point since you're paying for a buff that you are not using. Even if that is the case you can get a 3++ by simply putting the models on the Landing Pad which is good in and of itself, since it guaranteed, only costs 75 points and gives your units a good vantage point to fire from.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kaiyanwang wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:


Lol okay. Try that sometime and see how it works out for you. Hint: not well.

@Thousand-Son-Sorcerer: let's try to be constructive. Perhaps we can split TS units in counter-attack flamers and units with the cannon? could one build a reasonable list with like 2 MSU, 2 10 marine units as troops, 4 rhinos and many sorceres? doable? is 3 boxes... gors as obj grabbers... daemon allies... or cabal... what can be done?

for just the units and not the rhinos its 936 points with the rhinos, with the Rhinos it goes to 1070 and you still have no HQ.

You can't choose to ignore you MoT. It is still there.

 CrownAxe wrote:
You can't choose to ignore you MoT. It is still there.

Yes you can it's your units and you can choose to apply buffs as you see fit, in the FAQ it even says that you can pick which save "is best for the unit", plus to achieve this you have to bring a CAD, which means you can't reroll 1s on the Havoc's plus its ONLY shooting attacks so an assault will still tear them apart. Not to mention they are basically immobile if you want to keep that bonus, when you factor in all those things you begin to realize that they are not all that good. All in all the min cost is 300 points before you start upgrading the Havocs

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
You can't choose to ignore you MoT. It is still there.

Yes you can it's your units and you can choose to apply buffs as you see fit, in the FAQ it even says that you can pick which save "is best for the unit", plus to achieve this you have to bring a CAD, which means you can't reroll 1s on the Havoc's plus its ONLY shooting attacks so an assault will still tear them apart. Not to mention they are basically immobile if you want to keep that bonus, when you factor in all those things you begin to realize that they are not all that good. All in all the min cost is 300 points before you start upgrading the Havocs

Mark of Tzeentch isn't a save, its a special rule. So you can't choose to ignore it. You also don't have permission to apply buffs how you want, you have to use the rules for multiple modifiers

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
You can't choose to ignore you MoT. It is still there.

Yes you can it's your units and you can choose to apply buffs as you see fit, in the FAQ it even says that you can pick which save "is best for the unit", plus to achieve this you have to bring a CAD, which means you can't reroll 1s on the Havoc's plus its ONLY shooting attacks so an assault will still tear them apart. Not to mention they are basically immobile if you want to keep that bonus, when you factor in all those things you begin to realize that they are not all that good. All in all the min cost is 300 points before you start upgrading the Havocs

Mark of Tzeentch isn't a save, its a special rule. So you can't choose to ignore it. You also don't have permission to apply buffs how you want, you have to use the rules for multiple modifiers

Its an upgrade, and the way I see it I can choose which upgrades I use and which I don't. That's is just how I play. You can disagree and thats fine. Like I said even if you say no you still have a 3++ unit in a position to drop lots of fire.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Raven Guard players, using their unique Detachment presented in "Angels of Death", have it worse than Blood Angels did before their recent update.

The Detachment prevents you from taking any Psykers, any Centurions, and to top it off?
Your "Chapter Tactics" apply only to units with Jump Packs or those units that are on the field and not in a transport/building before the second turn.

lol the Talon Strike Force that allows first turn assault out of deep strike? yeah that's terrible

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
You can't choose to ignore you MoT. It is still there.

Yes you can it's your units and you can choose to apply buffs as you see fit, in the FAQ it even says that you can pick which save "is best for the unit", plus to achieve this you have to bring a CAD, which means you can't reroll 1s on the Havoc's plus its ONLY shooting attacks so an assault will still tear them apart. Not to mention they are basically immobile if you want to keep that bonus, when you factor in all those things you begin to realize that they are not all that good. All in all the min cost is 300 points before you start upgrading the Havocs

Mark of Tzeentch isn't a save, its a special rule. So you can't choose to ignore it. You also don't have permission to apply buffs how you want, you have to use the rules for multiple modifiers

Its an upgrade, and the way I see it I can choose which upgrades I use and which I don't. That's is just how I play. You can disagree and thats fine. Like I said even if you say no you still have a 3++ unit in a position to drop lots of fire.

You don't have permission to ignore upgrades your models have. Games use permissive rulesso you h ave to be told what you can do. And the rules haven't told you you can.

The fact that they had to go out of their way to say you could for saves if proof that you can't just ignore any upgrades and rules you want.

 axisofentropy wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Raven Guard players, using their unique Detachment presented in "Angels of Death", have it worse than Blood Angels did before their recent update.

The Detachment prevents you from taking any Psykers, any Centurions, and to top it off?
Your "Chapter Tactics" apply only to units with Jump Packs or those units that are on the field and not in a transport/building before the second turn.

lol the Talon Strike Force that allows first turn assault out of deep strike? yeah that's terrible

Talon Strike Force=Detachment.

The Shadowstrike Kill-Team, a formation able to be taken within the Talon Strike Force, is able to Deep Strike first turn and Assault. That formation is consisting of 1-3 units of Vanguard Veterans and 2-4 squads of Scouts(the Deep Striking Vanguard gain the ability to not Scatter if placed within a certain distance of 2 Scout Squads).

In any regards, yes. The Talon Strike Force is terrible compared to the overall stuff within Angels of Death and Codex: Space Marines.. You lose access to basically all the SM goodies(Thunderfire Cannons, Centurions, Bikers, Librarius Conclaves and Librarians in general) to get benefits such as:

Extensive Planning: You can choose to reroll the result on the Mission Table, reroll the result when rolling for a Random Deployment Zone, and reroll your dice when rolling off to see who goes first

Know When to Fade: You can always choose to fail Morale Checks for units within this Detachment.

When using the formation you specified(Shadowstrike Kill-Team), you also do not gain "Strike From the Shadows" since the Vanguard Veterans would not be on the table at the start of the game.

 CrownAxe wrote:
You don't have permission to ignore upgrades your models have. Games use permissive rulesso you h ave to be told what you can do. And the rules haven't told you you can.

The fact that they had to go out of their way to say you could for saves if proof that you can't just ignore any upgrades and rules you want.

Again, agree to disagree. When you buy a CCW for your unit does that mean you have to use it? No, they don't.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
You don't have permission to ignore upgrades your models have. Games use permissive rulesso you h ave to be told what you can do. And the rules haven't told you you can.

The fact that they had to go out of their way to say you could for saves if proof that you can't just ignore any upgrades and rules you want.

Again, agree to disagree. When you buy a CCW for your unit does that mean you have to use it? No, they don't.

Actually you do, its in the rules that you have to use one of your melee weapons when making a CC attack

The ruling on MoT says that MoT can't improve an invul save beyond 3++, it doesn't say that the model can't have an invul save better than 3++.

You apply buffs in the order you want to, so you apply the ++1 from sanctury on your 4++ taking it down to 3++. Then the detachement kicks in taking you down to a 2++. Then MoT kicks in and since a save can't be improved beyond 2+ it is moot.

You could even apply MoT second saying "MoT can't improve a save beyond 3++ so it doesn't take effect".

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
You don't have permission to ignore upgrades your models have. Games use permissive rulesso you h ave to be told what you can do. And the rules haven't told you you can.

The fact that they had to go out of their way to say you could for saves if proof that you can't just ignore any upgrades and rules you want.

Again, agree to disagree. When you buy a CCW for your unit does that mean you have to use it? No, they don't.

Actually you do, its in the rules that you have to use one of your melee weapons when making a CC attack

Okay, your right.

How about Scarab Occult Terminators?

 Draco wrote:
How about Scarab Occult Terminators?

I'm not totally sure it depends on what their wargear options are and what Disciplines they have access to. They may be worth it if you can take spell familiars and roll on all the disciplines that Exalted Sorcerers can.

I still wonder if the Scarab Occult Terminator are going to have 1 or 2 wounds.
Only one for 50 pts is a robbery

They're 40ppm.

It's the ML2 Sorc driving up the price of the unit.

The termies are hella expensive. Quite durable, but their damage output itself is rather low. Hope the Sorcerer fixes that.

Franarok wrote:
I still wonder if the Scarab Occult Terminator are going to have 1 or 2 wounds.
Only one for 50 pts is a robbery

The Psyker is ML 2 with 2 wounds.