Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 koooaei wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Yeah, probably they did mean blessing psy power. Seems not so great - especially for the overpriced rubrics.

What's bad about it? You get a free +1 invul when using a blessing. It's probably the best rule we have recieved in WoM.

Personally i've first got an impression that they simplyget +1 to inv. Which seems more appropriate to me. They become 3+/3++. A tiny bit more reasonable for such a price. 5++ cultists and marines. Back to the old MoT that used to add 5++ if there'sno inv in the first place. But nope. That's why i feel a bit disappointed. Well, on the other hand it's gona be easier to chop em down with my powerklaws.

Yes, a TS army should stay away from units with no innate invulnerable. Paying alot of point for a 6++, occasionally a 5++ isn't great.

However, a 3+/3++ (Rubrics, Warp Talons, Possessed) or 2+/3++ (Terminators/Occult Terminators/Obliterators/Mutilators) is nothing to scoff at, especially if you re-roll 1's on saves.

I'd love for MoT to be as it was in 4th Ed, where it gave a 5++.
Having basic CSM's/Raptors/Chosen/Bikers/Havocs with a possible 4++ would be both fun due to added variety, and make the list slightly more competetive. Perhaps MoT will give a 5++ by default in our next codex? One can only hope.

With that said, a list without basic CSM's/Chosen/Raptors/Bikers/Havocs at least adheres to the legions fluff.

Ericthegreen wrote:
Thousand Sons - Overview and Army Building

I have a few people excited by this in my area, including myself, so I'm trying to organise my thoughts. You can find reviews of the rules and formations elsewhere, I'm sure, so this is more a stream of consciousness. Firstly - not top tier in the slightest, but a decent mid table army with cool funky stuff, which for most CSM players is a massive leg up from where we were.

Do you mind if I quote this in the OP?

Go right ahead. I'm sure it doesnt cover everything that can be done with the book.

On that note, I am stuck with Ahriman or exalted sorcerer and war cabal or CAD.

Right now I'm only taking Ahriman for the warlord trait I think as I'm Focusing on buffs not witchfires.

What are other people's thoughts?

Invis is still the most important survivability buff. Rubrics should be sitting in 4+ cover with Shrouding, Terminators benefit from Warp Fate and Endurance, Tzaangors from almost anything, and Cultists everything but Endurance. There's lots of synergies here. I did a little analysis, but this is obviously the tip of the iceberg.

--> Rubric Marines

--> Occult Terminators

--> Tzaangors

--> Marked Cultists

So just a couple of lists that I muddled about with for the new Tsons. Every time I put units down on paper I choked at how fast my points dissapeared and I always came back to the same conclusion, 'How does it deal with AV?'.
Unfortunately it really doesn't very well, you need good rolls on your powers and to get into melee so you can hit them with your fancy Force Staves. I think these lists might have a bit of punch for Garage Hammer though.
These points values are rough since I don't have the books myself and so went off of information from the internet and educated guesswork

First up a CAD to tak advantage of Obsec Rubrics and Tzaangors


Next a list using the Tsons Decurion with War Cabal and Brayherd


Are they competetive? Almost certainly not, but its a couple of ways to make psychic heavy Thousand Sons lists with some deployment tricks and Tzeentch flavoured underlings.

Edit: Fixed the points costs on Havoc Launchers and the Scarab Termies Soulreaper Cannons, fething things are 30pts?!
Edit2: Found the full posting over at Atia's blog: https://war-of-sigmar.herokuapp.com/bloggings/1469 and the Astral Grimoire is 30pts rather than 25.

Ericthegreen wrote:
Go right ahead. I'm sure it doesnt cover everything that can be done with the book.

On that note, I am stuck with Ahriman or exalted sorcerer and war cabal or CAD.

Right now I'm only taking Ahriman for the warlord trait I think as I'm Focusing on buffs not witchfires.

What are other people's thoughts?

Same deal. I keep trying to work Ahriman in simply for the WL trait. With disk it eats up points quick especially if I want to add in 2 other level 3 exalted sorcerers at 1500.

I am starting to think I might have to forgo the warherd and stick with horrors to add in more infantry.

I have not put it to paper and all the lists have been a quick adding up of points on the phone. Most of my lists fell into 1500 to 2000 which my group usually caps at though lately we have been doing 1250.

I really like Baleful Devolution and when those 6s turn up it will put a nice fly in the ointment. Plus of you go with warherd you can add in cheap chaos spawn for fluffy flavor.

But yeah I want to work in Ahriman, it's a tough balance on 2 or 3 exalted sorcerers ml2 or 3, to disk or not to disk.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
What are thoughts on icons of flame? It's 60 points to equip 4 units with Soul blaze. Could be feast or famine.

Also if you took a vindicators squad of three and equipped them with warpflame gargoyles the apocalypse blast might have lingering effects.

Worth it or not I spend the points in the hope said unit takes a wound or 2 to flames. Wish Soul blaze had a bit more kick but used army wide your chances of getting positive results increases.

I believe a TS list should start with the following daemon allied force from WoM.:

Lorestealer's host - The blue scribes, 3x11 blue horrors.
Heralds anarchic - 3 x ML1 heralds of tzeentch.

The above units actually make a pandaemoniad decurion. You get 4++ saves instead of rerolling 1's. You also get 12 warp charges, your blue scribes shenaneninanigans (fuuuuuu!), 3 units to hold backfield objectives with decent defense (4++ and splitting into new units on death) and it only costs 381 pts.

Then comes the other end of the stick, how to put those charges to good use. With access to 10 disciplines, CSM sorcerers are actually quite equipped to face off most threats. The obvious warp charge sink would be Magnus. He has an incredible damage output potential. Magnus actually has two str D powers, not one. He also has 2 strong beams in doombolt and bolt of change, and treason of tzeentch can be terrifying against terrifying opponents. If he needs to, he also has 4d6 str 5 ap4 shots with a BS of 7 and Infernal gateway can double as a somehow decent anti tank (low scatter chance). Baleful devolution can snipe characters and Boon of mutation can turn him into a spawn! The damage potential of Magnus cannot be denied and with flying he can position himself into critical places.

The second most obvious warp charge outlet is Ahriman. He can multicast witchfires, and there are two pretty handy ones he can grab by virtue of them being primaris powers. Ahriman can move 12" on his disc, triple psychic scream enemy units and then run back to safety. Ahriman can choose ectomancy primaris and unleash 18 str 5 ap4 shots at BS 5. In a war coven he can even get reroll on his to hit rolls. In an Ahriman's exile formation he can harness on a 3+. Other than the big two, you can have any sorcerer with an -on demand- psychic shriek or warpshock. With any formation that gives 3+ to harness (or Magnus) and the addition of spell familiars, TS can have the longest psychic phase ever known to man by one dicing all the secondary spells before they move on to the big ones.

The other aspect of TS is to utilize blessings to improve one's survivability. Some tricks right off the bat. Force is a blessing and targets the whole unit. And everybody knows it. Magnus knows 3 blessings, with the most important of all being Siphon Magic. A Daemon Prince can achieve immortality by casting an Empyric shield on itself (2++ rerollable). Favoured of Tzeentch special rule is very difficult to achieve but it does make your scarab occults immune to non ap2 damage (which is their biggest bane). In a grand coven TS can reroll the warlord trait, and there are some nice ones in there, like getting EW on your warlord.

So after getting our infinite psychic phase, there are still problems that need our attention. First and foremost, as people said, there is not enough anti AV in the book. Heretech can get the job done but it's fickle, and melee is out of the question. Choices include las predators (in units of 3 to also get tank hunters), obliterators and the Lord of the Silver tower ability of the exalted sorcerers. Oblits get a nice deal by getting votlw for free (and horus knows they need it) and compliment the elite and durable aspect of the list. Las/auto predators are cheap, and if you take a unit of three you should be more or less guaranteed a tank kill per turn. Finally, Lord of the silver tower should not be underestimated, especially when spammed. With BS 5, a blast isn't going to scatter much, so there are very good chances to land your lance lascannon shot on an enemy vehicle.

Next problem comes with unit cost and options. TS are expensive. That's why I suggested the daemon allied force in the beginning. With only 380 pts you get 3 x 12 units of 4++ daemons. These can hold backfield objectives for a cheap price, while they let you focus on your more expensive stuff. Sorcerers on discs and rubric units jumping onto objectives with the Astral Grimoire can claim the forward objectives, and Daemon Princes with Empyric Shield can just jump right into the fray because they just can't die.Still, this is going to be an elite army. You can mitigate that a while with the tzaangor formation. While tzaangor looks weak, the formation gives it multiple bonuses. First it gets fleet and it may run and charge. This makes the tzaangors much much faster, as you can apply fleet rerolls to both run and charge rolls. Secondly, fleet makes rolling "9+" for the charge roll that much more likely, which turns tzaangors into armorless space marines for the hth phase. What's more, exalted sorcs can join tzaangor units, make them fearless and actually perform pretty good in hth. Oh and if you go down that road, pick seer's bane, it's really really strong.

What I want to know is whether a very wierd kind of deathstar is available. Put 7-8 sorcerers in a fat unit of cultists! Use the astral grimoire to fly them around, cast ALL the buffs (invisibility, shrouded, telekinetic dome etc). Use ectomancy spells to keep running around and casting spells,or get out of combat. Or use biomancy/ divination and seer's bane / black mace and just charge stuff because invisibility is still unfair. The question is, would having 25+ warp charges, tons of spells known and the ability to harness on a 3+ rerollable give you enough edge to make a deathstar of cultists work?

Hey, so I'm thinking of running something like this to start off - thankfully my meta isn't super hardcore but I figured I should ask for second opinion(s) all the same. Basically the Sorcerers are going to be doing 90% of the heavy lifting for this army - really the Rubricae are just there as ablative wounds and for the sake of fluff. My biggest concern is mobility - obviously this can be countered somewhat via the Astral Grimoire, as well as through psychic powers like Levitation and Ghost Storm, but it's definitely a problem considering the random nature of psychic powers. In any case, I figure the best way to go in most cases is going to be to run Athanaeans so you're harnessing warp charges for Telepathy powers on a 3+ and then go crazy with Psychic Shriek or else run Heretech if the enemy army is vehicle heavy. The Exalted Sorcerers in the War Cabal will run Divination (hoping for Perfect Timing) along with the Scarab Occult Sorcerer, all of whom will be with the Terminators. I'm thinking as well, in terms of anti-vehicle, it's reasonably likely that at least one of the Sorcerers in the army is going to roll Treason of Tzeentch, since we're talking a total 9 rolls (appropriately enough) on the Tzeentch table. It's not a hard and fast solution, but it might well prove useful. Anyway...

Thousand Sons - 1850 Points

Detachment: Thousand Sons Grand Coven

Core Formation: War Cabal

HQ - 500 points

Exalted Sorcerer
+Psyker (Mastery Level 3)
+Disc of Tzeentch
+Seer's Bane
Total: 255 points

Exalted Sorcerer
+Psyker (Mastery Level 3)
+Disc of Tzeentch
+Astral Grimoire
Total: 245 points

Troops - 580 points

Rubric Marines x 10
+Soulreaper Cannon
Total: 290 points

Rubric Marines x 10
+Soulreaper Cannon
Total: 290 points

Elites - 300 points

Scarab Occult Terminators x 5
+Soulreaper Cannon
+Hellfyre Missile Rack
Total: 300 points

Auxiliary Formation: War Coven

HQ - 460 points

Sorcerer
+Psyker (Mastery Level 2)
+Aura of Dark Glory
+Mark of Tzeentch
+Veterans of the Long War
Total: 115 points

Sorcerer
+Psyker (Mastery Level 2)
+Aura of Dark Glory
+Mark of Tzeentch
+Veterans of the Long War
Total: 115 points

Sorcerer
+Psyker (Mastery Level 2)
+Aura of Dark Glory
+Mark of Tzeentch
+Veterans of the Long War
Total: 115 points

Sorcerer
+Psyker (Mastery Level 2)
+Aura of Dark Glory
+Mark of Tzeentch
+Veterans of the Long War
Total: 115 points

List Total: 1840 points

Arnemen wrote:
So just a couple of lists that I muddled about with for the new Tsons. Every time I put units down on paper I choked at how fast my points dissapeared and I always came back to the same conclusion, 'How does it deal with AV?'.

Technomancy. Btw, havok launchers cost 12 - not 15.

I also don't think that 10 tsons in a rhino are gona serve you well. They cost like a bunch of decked up wuffen. I'd run with min squads if you do have to field them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ChaosReigns999 wrote:

Rubric Marines
+5 Rubric Marines
+Soulreaper Cannon

Iirc correctly, soulreapers are 1 per 10 for rubrics. So, you're gona save points on it there ;D

Sorry, that is 10 Rubrics. It was meant to be the base unit size plus five, but I changed it so it's easier to read.

Challenge- Least points wasteful detachment/formation incorporating a TS character who can take relics?
Allied detachment looks like it isn't an option if there's a chaos warlord regardless of legion.
Nuts to taking 2 units of tzeentch cultists.

Unfortunately you wouldn't get Run and Charge for the Exalted Sorcerer in a Warherd auxiliary though he would at least get Fleet which is handy if he's going on a Disc.

On the bright side, the formation does let you run a lot of MSU spawn, which has its own advantages.

The War Cabal is damn pricey though!

True, he would have to leave the unit that would run and charge but the other 2 tzangoor units could.

I never cared for the spawn but I like them in the warherd as it is fluff. Plus I really like the Devolution power so I plan on a couple boxes.

So, it's uninspired, but I think the fist of the gods could be a decent thousand sons formation.
Brings tanks, (and TS need AT.

I wouldn't normally be bothered with a warpsmith, but he can take a relic, and the astral grimoire makes him better at repairing spread out tanks. And combos with all sorts of infantry shenanigans

Captyn_Bob wrote:
So, it's uninspired, but I think the fist of the gods could be a decent thousand sons formation.
Brings tanks, (and TS need AT.

I wouldn't normally be bothered with a warpsmith, but he can take a relic, and the astral grimoire makes him better at repairing spread out tanks. And combos with all sorts of infantry shenanigans

Would the tanks get the invuln buff for being a TS unit when a blessing is cast on them? If so, then rolling Heretek might not be so bad since you'd either be getting more anti-tank or buffs for your anti-tank tanks.

Nah it's VOTLW only

Though his is not a psycher I think the warpsmith make a an interesting choice with mot, aura and votlw. The ability to curse fortifications seems a bit techno sorcery.

Can you take him with vindicators squad formation? That some serious ap2 with potential Soul blaze.

Yeah he comes with 3-5 land raiders, predator squadrons or vindicator squadrons.

Formation bonuses are
Dark Wards: all vehicles within 12” of Warpsmith have 6+invulnerable save.

Unholy Blessings: Warpsmith gets +1 bonus to repair vehicles in this formation.


The cult of destruction is also tempting, although I don't have any good ideas for tzeentch oblits yet

1-3 Warpsmiths 3-5 Obliterators or Mutilators

Restrictions: None

Empyrionic Guidance Rituals: At start of movement phase each Warpsmith can perform the ritual on one unit of Oblits or Mutilators within 8”. Oblits get to shoot twice, Mutilators attack twice.

Aaand the hellforged warpack is pricey, but excellent.

1 Warpsmith 3-5 Helbrutes, Maulerfiends, Forgefiends, or Defilers

Restrictions: None

Master of Mechanical Warpcraft: While the Warpsmith is in play the Warpack can reuse their Deamonforge rule repeatedly.

Warpack Alpha: Nominate one of the Warpack as the Alpha. They gain the Character type and a 4+ invulnerable save. If the Alpha is destroyed the rest of the Warpack gain the Rage rule.

That Cult of Destruction looks tasty for AT needs and fits nicely with the small Elite Infantry army theme.
A full Auto-Las Pred squadron backed by the Warpsmith might be viable, though hideously overkill against most targets it will give a Knight pause with a pair of solo Vindicators to act as bullies/distractions?

My thought on the Exalted Sorc + Tzaangors was that his Fearless mitigated the big mobs low leadership and Seer's Bane is actually amazing at killing pretty much anything with a toughness value and most tanks as well.

Rubrics in Rhinos would be for outflank, I tend to agree that their killing power is weak for their cost. So they need to be bullies, they should be pretty good at clearing out backfield units though and the Rhino will at least get them closer to where they need to be if they end up on the wrong table edge.

I keep wanting to make Rubrics work.

I can go 290 x 2 on two 10 man units of Rubrics w cannon despite their perception. Also three 5 man units increases your psychers on the board and cheap requirement for reroll 1s if you choose to go that route. I was also looking at going for a 10 man and two 5 men units of Rubrics

With this Ahirman infiltrate offers closer pressure on the enemy sooner rather than later.

Running the list I want is

War Cabal 1420 points
Ahriman w/ disc 260
Two 10 Rubrics w soul cannon and Icon 305 ea TTl 610
6 Scarab Occult Termies w icon and soul reaper cannon 335
Two Exhalted Sorc ML3 w/ disc 430

Auxiliary
3 Vindicators or Las Predators 360. The preds seem overkill and the vindis should also hurt side armor. Are they 10 Str?

That is putting it at about 1995 but that might not be to the point accurate. Casting 2-3 units pink horrors after that.

Or forgo the tanks and add the Warherd w one of the exhalted sorcerers from the Cabal.

As much as I love the warherd it seems a better option to take the tanks and summon horrors for both back field objective and overall annoyance.

Also like the idea of working in chaos spawn if taking the warherd.

I also like the idea of breaking up 1 of the 2 rubirc marines to get another aspiring sorcerer on the board and trade the soul reaper for an icon.

Even one beefy unit of 12-15 Rubiric marines might be fun if infiltrated.

A maxed War Cabal might as well be an army tough as nails and extremely hard to kill. Granted, it won't be killing many things back either, but 3 units of scarab terminators with 2+ rerollable and (potentially) 3++ with rerollable 1's are not going down easily at all. Plus the rerolling of 1's to hit can be pretty decent for the soulreaper cannons and the hellyfires, not to mention the mind bullets. Rubrics can stay MSU, be put in Rhinos and be used as objective cappers and mild tarpits. You also need 4 sorcerers, which will give you plenty of warp charges to buff your scarabs and also deal some damage. It is worth noticing that this list has the potential to unleash 7 psychic screams per turn. Of course, a full war cabal is almost a whole army list by itself. By adding a cheap auxiliary one can make a grand cabal and benefit from extra casts and rerollable perils. The list also generates 15-20 warp charges, which can prove invaluable in making an army list that simply refuses to die.

topaxygouroun i wrote:
A maxed War Cabal might as well be an army tough as nails and extremely hard to kill. Granted, it won't be killing many things back either, but 3 units of scarab terminators with 2+ rerollable and (potentially) 3++ with rerollable 1's are not going down easily at all. Plus the rerolling of 1's to hit can be pretty decent for the soulreaper cannons and the hellyfires, not to mention the mind bullets. Rubrics can stay MSU, be put in Rhinos and be used as objective cappers and mild tarpits. You also need 4 sorcerers, which will give you plenty of warp charges to buff your scarabs and also deal some damage. It is worth noticing that this list has the potential to unleash 7 psychic screams per turn. Of course, a full war cabal is almost a whole army list by itself. By adding a cheap auxiliary one can make a grand cabal and benefit from extra casts and rerollable perils. The list also generates 15-20 warp charges, which can prove invaluable in making an army list that simply refuses to die.

The maxed our war cabal seemed designed to stand on its own. I want to run it myself just to see hour it does. I am trying to spam sorcerers, after all its a sorcerer army so go balls out.

I was thinking of going all Tzeentch for all my sorcerers to get the primaris, has anyone actual used Firestorm, seen anyone who has?. if you can avoid boon I will take any of the the other rolled powers.

 Skerr wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
A maxed War Cabal might as well be an army tough as nails and extremely hard to kill. Granted, it won't be killing many things back either, but 3 units of scarab terminators with 2+ rerollable and (potentially) 3++ with rerollable 1's are not going down easily at all. Plus the rerolling of 1's to hit can be pretty decent for the soulreaper cannons and the hellyfires, not to mention the mind bullets. Rubrics can stay MSU, be put in Rhinos and be used as objective cappers and mild tarpits. You also need 4 sorcerers, which will give you plenty of warp charges to buff your scarabs and also deal some damage. It is worth noticing that this list has the potential to unleash 7 psychic screams per turn. Of course, a full war cabal is almost a whole army list by itself. By adding a cheap auxiliary one can make a grand cabal and benefit from extra casts and rerollable perils. The list also generates 15-20 warp charges, which can prove invaluable in making an army list that simply refuses to die.

The maxed our war cabal seemed designed to stand on its own. I want to run it myself just to see hour it does. I am trying to spam sorcerers, after all its a sorcerer army so go balls out.

I was thinking of going all Tzeentch for all my sorcerers to get the primaris, has anyone actual used Firestorm, seen anyone who has?. if you can avoid boon I will take any of the the other rolled powers.

Firestorm is very very bad. You should never waste powers known or warp charges in that. And Boon is also bad. But now there's 7 spells in Tzeentch. Bolt of change is still great, Siphon magic can grant you quite some free warp charges and treason of tzeench can turn the course of the battle if you manage to steal a sick unit (ie steal one unit of grav devastators and shoot at the other).

I wondered if anyone had any luck with Firestorm though I guess not.

Breath of chaos does not seem so bad.

 Skerr wrote:
True, he would have to leave the unit that would run and charge

No, he just wouldn't make a run move and they would. It's identical to ork boyz, run + charge and a bike indep.

Skerr, if you want to experiment with Rubrics and Termies just max out War Cabal.

Core - 1925pts, 20x ML
--> Ahriman w/Disc
--> 3x Rubrics
--> 3x Occults w/missiles
--> 2x Sorcs, TDA, ML3
--> 1x Sorc, Grimoire
Aux - 75pts
--> Predator w/Autocannon

I think there's probably stronger lists, but you've still got 20x MLs and infiltrating psychic Terminators.

I really can't see a 1ksons army running properly without a Panda of Tzeentch accompanying it.
Taking just the blue scribe formation with a few extra horrors, and the heralds formation is enough to be rather cheap (in the 300-400 range, depending on setup) and generate alot of warp charges (like, 12, easy)

The two are in the same book for a reason. they are meant for each other.
One is elite force of little numbers that eats warp charges like crazy, the other is a mass of bodies that generate tons of charges but don't really do anything with them.

Getting a full war cabal with an attached panda won't be easy though. HOWEVER you don't need an auxillary, as you can simply pass out on the grand coven.
The reroll to trait is meaningless if you got ahriman anyway, so the only thing you lose is the ability to reroll perils (means little) and the "cast an extra spell" (also means nothing if you can't actually feed all these spells with charges)

Reroll perils is useful. You could fish for those 5-6 results.

Yoyoyo wrote:
Skerr, if you want to experiment with Rubrics and Termies just max out War Cabal.

Core - 1925pts, 20x ML
--> Ahriman w/Disc
--> 3x Rubrics
--> 3x Occults w/missiles
--> 2x Sorcs, TDA, ML3
--> 1x Sorc, Grimoire
Aux - 75pts
--> Predator w/Autocannon

I think there's probably stronger lists, but you've still got 20x MLs and infiltrating psychic Terminators.

I hope too soon. Until then would to proxy, haha. I am budgeting to a kit a week.

Torn on which supplement. On one hand I want traitor legions though what am I really missing rules wise if I don't get WoM? Demons right? Plus I heard you need curse of Wulfen as well?

What are folks here getting?

Why would you need Curse of the Wulfen? I got WoM and one of each of the new boxes (except I got two Rubric boxes)! I know Thousand Sons will probably not be super competitive so I'm going to stay fluffy with it. My competitive army will probably stay Tau.