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KnightScion wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:

KnightScion wrote:

I also have another question about the Scarab Terminators. Everyone keeps saying that they can only have power swords. But under options is says any Terminator may replace their weapon with items from the Terminator Weapons list. The Terminator Weapons list has options for a number of different weapon options. Am I missing something?

It doesn't say that at all. Are you using a roster editor?

This is what I am reading

OPTIONS:
• May include up to six additional
Rubric Terminators................................................xx pts/model
• Any Rubric Terminator may replace take an item from the
Terminator Weapons List.
• For every five models in the unit, one Rubric Terminator
may replace their Inferno Combi-bolter with an item from
the Heavy Weapons list.
• For every five models in the unit, one Rubric Terminator may
also take
a hellfyremissile rack (pg 156

Neither Wrath of Magnus not Traitor Legions says that and they are not Rubric Terminators. So what are you looking at?

I have to apologize, I must have found a bad PDF listing.

As mentioned before, the Scarab Occults are not plain terminators and can only have power swords. That being said, they are better than normal terminators. Any other terminator unit in the game is a one-trick pony, only good in one phase of the game and still they are bad because of dying to small arms fire spam like all the terminators. Scarabs however are very useful in all the phases of the game and in a maxed war cabal (which-let's face it- is where we will be playing them) they become a serious powerhouse.

Yes I am becoming a scarab occult terminator groupie. And I'm proud of it.

Couple questions!

Is Seer's Bane best on a disc Exalted Sorcerer or a foot one inside a squad? What about Astral Grimoire?

When it comes to Heralds of Tzeentch and the Blue Scribes, are the only models of them the Finecast ones on GW website?

I think Blue/Brimstone boxes will be coming next month, but trying to figure out a way to get 3 Heralds and 1 Blue Scribes!

I take my Seers Bane Ex.Sorc always with a Disc, so i can't get ID by Strength 8 weapons. I run him along with Spawns, so he still can move 12". If you can buff yourself (i.e. with Force), they'll get 5++. Rolling on Biomancy can give you Endurance for Feel no Pain on 4+ and Eternal Warrior.

You can build a Herald of Tzeentch from the Burning Chariot of Tzeentch Box, which is a great set: You can build a Herald (with Disc), an Exalted Flamer on a Chariot and 2 Blue Horrors. You could also take the 2 Blue Horrors and put them on the disc from the chariot, et voila, proxied Blue Scribes and 2 Screamers

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:I don't know where the hate for Scarabs comes from. Yeah they can't hurt things with a 2+, but where are you really dealing with that 24/7?

The hate is coming from them being 250 points and still having all the drawbacks of normal terminators without being able to take anything useful like power axes, combi meltas or a chainfist. Anything with a 2+ will tarpit them forever since str4 is useless against anything good and with the loss of sanctic for hammerhand on the exalteds, it's reliant on a 2W sorc to not perils himself to death to buff them. Anything that also has a powerfist or similar is going to eat through them quicker than you'd like too given how much they cost. A single armoured sentinal can charge them and it will take the Staff equiped sarge 9 rounds of combat to break them out. The paltry str4 also means that they're completely impotant against anything with a strong invulnerable save. 3 wraiths will not just tie them up, but kill all of them in 6 rounds while only suffering 1 casualty. They're also in quite a bit of trouble against higher toughness things too since they're wounding on 6's, though the force staff on the sarge means that it's really only numerous 1W things relying on higher T (like nurgle bikers for example) that will give them a hard time, though bouncing your AP4 staff off monstrous creatures is also going to be a pain if they deny force or don't have the good grace to fail their saves in a timely fashion.

topaxygouroun i wrote:As mentioned before, the Scarab Occults are not plain terminators and can only have power swords. That being said, they are better than normal terminators. Any other terminator unit in the game is a one-trick pony, only good in one phase of the game and still they are bad because of dying to small arms fire spam like all the terminators. Scarabs however are very useful in all the phases of the game and in a maxed war cabal (which-let's face it- is where we will be playing them) they become a serious powerhouse.

Yes I am becoming a scarab occult terminator groupie. And I'm proud of it.

Being a fanboi and being unable to objectively assess the strengths and weaknesses of a unit isn't going to help anyone. Yes, scarabs in the full cabal are strong, but despite the fact being pointed out to you repeatedly, the full cabal is prohibitively expensive for any games under 2k which is not what the majority of people play. I'm not sure how you think combi-weapon toting terminators are only good in one phase of the game since combi melta or plasma combined with power axes mean you're a threat to pretty much everything when you come down and again the next turn when you're free to charge. The addition of a 12 point chainfist means you're also a real threat to vehicles and can't be stalled out by walkers. If you want to call them bad because they die to small arms, then the same accusation must be levels at the scarabs outside a full cabal since they lack the ranged punch while costing well over double the points of a meltacide team. In fact, you're getting close to 3 units of termicide teams for the same cost as 5 Scarabs with a cannon and missiles.

Noctem wrote:Couple questions!

Is Seer's Bane best on a disc Exalted Sorcerer or a foot one inside a squad? What about Astral Grimoire?

When it comes to Heralds of Tzeentch and the Blue Scribes, are the only models of them the Finecast ones on GW website?

I think Blue/Brimstone boxes will be coming next month, but trying to figure out a way to get 3 Heralds and 1 Blue Scribes!

I'd suggest that the Bane is best on a disc sorc, though it's also worth mentioning that just because he's on a disc, doesn't mean he can't also join a unit for protection if there's no good spots for him to hide. As for the grimoure, it misght as well go in a squad since if it's on a disc, the temptation will be to hide him and that could well take him out of range to use the grimoure on the squad that needs it next turn.

As mentioned, the Burning Chariot kit makes a herald (on disc or on foot) and for some bizare reason, is cheaper than the finecast herald on disc in most areas.

The blue scribes however are only available as the finecast kit without some decent conversion skills or proxies.

Drasius, perhaps you're making a point but you're also comparing a unit outside its role.

Termicide serves a different function -- fire Combis, then die. Scarabs will be used as a retinue with defensive buffs in every situation outside maxed War Cabal, where their increased durability basically makes them a different unit.

I think their limited range of targets is a valid point, but in that case you need to compare a similar AP3 blender like Possessed or Warp Talons. Remember, there's only 160pts of Terminators in there once you account for the Sorcerer.

I'm not saying your criticisms are wrong, just that Scarabs are very unlikely to be played as analogues to standard Terminators.

Being a fanboi and being unable to objectively assess the strengths and weaknesses of a unit isn't going to help anyone. Yes, scarabs in the full cabal are strong, but despite the fact being pointed out to you repeatedly, the full cabal is prohibitively expensive for any games under 2k which is not what the majority of people play. I'm not sure how you think combi-weapon toting terminators are only good in one phase of the game since combi melta or plasma combined with power axes mean you're a threat to pretty much everything when you come down and again the next turn when you're free to charge. The addition of a 12 point chainfist means you're also a real threat to vehicles and can't be stalled out by walkers. If you want to call them bad because they die to small arms, then the same accusation must be levels at the scarabs outside a full cabal since they lack the ranged punch while costing well over double the points of a meltacide team. In fact, you're getting close to 3 units of termicide teams for the same cost as 5 Scarabs with a cannon and missiles.

Selectively choosing my words and taking them out of context is not helping either. I was clear to mention that outside a maxed war cabal the scarabs are a surplus unit, just like any other terminators. I guess you accidentally skipped that one. To begin with, you can play a maxed war cabal at 1500 pts. Do the math. Sure, it won't be the most efficient list ever, but you can actually play it, so please stop it with the small/big games. And unless you personally know the majority of people, please refrain from speaking on their behalf. What's more, what size of games people play is irrelevant when we discuss the profile of a unit. And if you are so adamant about your 1200 pt games, what are you even doing in a thread about -perhaps- the most expensive and elite army there is?

As for the terminator comparison. Simple terminators with MoT and combi plasmas/meltas actually cost more than a scarab occult. Also, combi meltas are very heavily reliant on not scattering when deep striking. Combi plasmas are good, but you can find them cheaper elsewhere, and at any rate I believe that being able to drop + psychic scream is better than dropping + combi plasmas. As for the normal terminators melee prowess, I believe that power axes in 1-wound guys is a bad purchase. Power mauls are much better, and in that case I do have my force staff which is the same thing and I prefer having Force than not having it. 12 pt chain fists are good. 5 pt melta bombs are the same kind of good and with ap1 to boot. Also it is convenient how you forget that you also get a 120 pt sorcerer when you purchase your scarabs. And at any rate, I fail to see how having MORE options is worse than not having them. People who dislike terminators in general aren't going to play with scarabs anyways. People who do like them are quite likely to play with scarabs as well, and in that case they might probably want to hear opinions of people who have played with them. Finally, you definitely do not get 3 units of termicide for the price of 5 scarabs, even though you tried your best to make scarabs as expensive as you could and the termicide as cheap. This is a thread on a topic of Thousand Son lists. Do not bring unmarked termies into the conversation because they are not part of a Thousand son list.

Occult Termies are garbage, same with rubric marines, I think most players with good sense of game mechanics like Drasius understand this.

Standard termies are better than Occult in every way. We don't have to use termicide squads for comparison.

A 5 man Termie unit in a TS CAD with mark of Tz with 4 PF, 1 LC, 5x combi-meltas cost less than a unit of Occult. They can shred thru MEQ, TEQs, MCs, and vehicles, while Occult is only confined to MEQs. They can get 3++ as easily as Occults if you attach a Astral Grim Sorcerer to it.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Occult Termies are garbage, same with rubric marines, I think most players with good sense of game mechanics like Drasius understand this.

Standard termies are better than Occult in every way. We don't have to use termicide squads for comparison.

A 5 man Termie unit in a TS CAD with mark of Tz with 4 PF, 1 LC, 5x combi-meltas cost less than a unit of Occult. They can shred thru MEQ, TEQs, MCs, and vehicles, while Occult is only confined to MEQs. They can get 3++ as easily as Occults if you attach a Astral Grim Sorcerer to it.

Your 5 man example also doesn't come with a 2 wound sorcerer

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Occult Termies are garbage, same with rubric marines, I think most players with good sense of game mechanics like Drasius understand this.

Standard termies are better than Occult in every way. We don't have to use termicide squads for comparison.

A 5 man Termie unit in a TS CAD with mark of Tz with 4 PF, 1 LC, 5x combi-meltas cost less than a unit of Occult. They can shred thru MEQ, TEQs, MCs, and vehicles, while Occult is only confined to MEQs. They can get 3++ as easily as Occults if you attach a Astral Grim Sorcerer to it.

Fine, have it like this: There are zero lists where simple terminators are good. There is one list where scarabs are great.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:


YOU WILL CONFORM

Yoyoyo wrote:Drasius, perhaps you're making a point but you're also comparing a unit outside its role.

Termicide serves a different function -- fire Combis, then die. Scarabs will be used as a retinue with defensive buffs in every situation outside maxed War Cabal, where their increased durability basically makes them a different unit.

I think their limited range of targets is a valid point, but in that case you need to compare a similar AP3 blender like Possessed or Warp Talons. Remember, there's only 160pts of Terminators in there once you account for the Sorcerer.

I'm not saying your criticisms are wrong, just that Scarabs are very unlikely to be played as analogues to standard Terminators.

Yep, the very fact that you compare them to units like Possessed and Warp Talons who cost almost half what a unit of Scarabs do and are still complete and utter trash is the point. That there's 160 points of crappy terminators in there is irrelevant since I can't take them without the sorceror (not that I would want to), besides, the sorc isn't really ML2. Oh, sure, he generates 2 dice, but the Tz table isn't great even with the update, he doesn't have a familiar and being forced to roll on the Tz table means you not only lose a roll on something good like telepathy or bio, you lose out on getting the primaris for free and get firestorm that you'll never cast. That aspiring sorceror is dead weight and if he casts anything other than force, shriek or doombolt, it will be a statistical outlier.

You can build a terminator unit just as good or better than the Scarabs at their only purpose (MEQ shredder or 2+/3++ meatshield) while being just as survivable, in the same codex, in the same army, in the same slot, for less points. That's the very definition of a bad unit.

topaxygouroun i wrote:Selectively choosing my words and taking them out of context is not helping either. I was clear to mention that outside a maxed war cabal the scarabs are a surplus unit, just like any other terminators. I guess you accidentally skipped that one. To begin with, you can play a maxed war cabal at 1500 pts. Do the math. Sure, it won't be the most efficient list ever, but you can actually play it, so please stop it with the small/big games. And unless you personally know the majority of people, please refrain from speaking on their behalf. What's more, what size of games people play is irrelevant when we discuss the profile of a unit. And if you are so adamant about your 1200 pt games, what are you even doing in a thread about -perhaps- the most expensive and elite army there is?

I'm not selectively choosing your words nor taking them out of context, simply quoting what's relevant instead of filling the page with a quote train. Yes, you can put a full cabal on the table at 1500, but it's completely pointless and we both know it. All you need to do is look at the army list forum to see that the vast, vast majority of lists are built for 1850 or less, with a lesser but not insignificant amount for 2k and then a small handful of lists for over 2k. As for game size being irrelevant when discussing a unit, that's blatently ridiculous. Do you think that the various versions of superfriends or even the basic centstar works at lower point levels? Where do you draw the line on large points investment units in smaller games? At what point does running a double demi company become viable over a single demi and support elements? When the profile of a unit changes when a large amount of points are invested, for example in a full war cabal talking about Scarab Occult Terminators then it's very relevant to discuss game size when you can't reasonably expect to field them when they are actually good at anything under 1850, and even then, there's severe restrictions of the rest of the list.

I'm not saying 1200 point games are the point, I'm saying that it's asanine to blindly sing the praises of a unit that has limited practical application in normal games outside of a very specific set of restrictions without a qualifier. It's not a small/big game difference, it's a tournament standard/beer and pretzel difference. Talking about 2400 or 3k or whatever is just as pointless as talking about 500 or 750 for most players since it's not something they usually play, and most things that are discussed here are with the implicit understanding that it's in reference to tournament level points games eg 1500-1850.

topaxygouroun i wrote:As for the terminator comparison. Simple terminators with MoT and combi plasmas/meltas actually cost more than a scarab occult. Also, combi meltas are very heavily reliant on not scattering when deep striking. Combi plasmas are good, but you can find them cheaper elsewhere, and at any rate I believe that being able to drop + psychic scream is better than dropping + combi plasmas. As for the normal terminators melee prowess, I believe that power axes in 1-wound guys is a bad purchase. Power mauls are much better, and in that case I do have my force staff which is the same thing and I prefer having Force than not having it. 12 pt chain fists are good. 5 pt melta bombs are the same kind of good and with ap1 to boot. Also it is convenient how you forget that you also get a 120 pt sorcerer when you purchase your scarabs. And at any rate, I fail to see how having MORE options is worse than not having them. People who dislike terminators in general aren't going to play with scarabs anyways. People who do like them are quite likely to play with scarabs as well, and in that case they might probably want to hear opinions of people who have played with them. Finally, you definitely do not get 3 units of termicide for the price of 5 scarabs, even though you tried your best to make scarabs as expensive as you could and the termicide as cheap. This is a thread on a topic of Thousand Son lists. Do not bring unmarked termies into the conversation because they are not part of a Thousand son list.

5 termies with MoT and a combi are 209 points against the 250 for the Scarabs - How are you figuring that the Termies cost more? Even if you want 6 wounds, it's an even 250 for 6, so equal cost, though at that point you'd spend the extra 5 points an make 'em 2x 3 man units. As for the meltas, yes, they are, that's why termicide is seen as a disposable cheap unit and not often looked upon fondly, rather as a deperate measure due to lack of choice otherwise due to our crappy dex. As for combi-plas cheaper elsewhere, I think 112 points is a fairly good buy for a dispoable unit of plasma shots with power axe terminators attached and off hand, I can't remember a cheaper source that can get somewhere with all its plasma in 1 piece. As for definately not getting 3 for 1, I said almost 3:1 (and at 336 per 3 units vs 300 per unit I wasn't exaggerating), I gave the Scarabs the default loadout that you have been spruiking and I have been seeing in almost every list that's been posted in the forums while the termicide was kept cheap because that's how you run them, hence the name. Yes, it's a topic on TSons, hence why I was comparing a Sons unit.

I'll leave the debate about axes vs mauls alone, save to say that it's very meta dependant - If you're bashing on vehicles and units with a 4+ or a strong ++, then mauls, otherwise axes. Same thing for chain fist vs melta bomb, save that I like 3 attacks on the charge and the ability to hide in a unit instead of being challenged out against 1 swing with the bombs and saving 7 points, but again, it's meta dependant.

As for getting the sorceror with the unit, if I could trade him in for the points (he's 90, not 120 by the way), I would do it in a heartbeat. The reason why it's worse is because those meagre options are forced on us at a significant price premium when they are, in all reality, not only highly over priced, but also a non-starter when the unit is used in the only way that it's good - With a real sorceror attached. If I had those spare points from the 3 mandatory sorcs, that's 270 points I could spend getting me 12 warp charge (6 more than the sorcs provided) for my real sorcerors to use.

Regardless of if people like terminators or not, there's very little choice in using terminators if you want to use the new formations since both cores have mandatory units of them and nobody wants 2 units of rubricae. Yes, they will want to hear the opinion of people who play with them, they're also likely to want to know how to use them when they get murdered by poor ap volume of fire like every other terminator because they weren't told that Scarabs are only useful in a full cabal.

topaxygouroun i wrote:Fine, have it like this: There are zero lists where simple terminators are good. There is one list where scarabs are great.

This. This is what we should be saying in a tactics thread when people ask about Scarabs. There's no denying that a Full Cabal is great and that Scarabs are nigh immortal, but in any other use, save perhaps a Full Sekmet with Magnus at 3k, you're better served with another option for the job you'd use Scarabs for. Sure, there's some times where you're forced to use them like taking a min cabal where the argument can be made that the min cabal is better than a TS CAD due to taking less rubricae and getting a re-roll on your perils, but outside of that, no, they're pretty bad.

Lansirill wrote:YOU WILL CONFORM

Bad units are bad. Good units are good. A small amount of units are good in certain situations. There's a reason why the vast majority of Dev Cents are/will be assembled with grav cannons and not heavy bolters. There's no point complaining when people point this out.

 nintura wrote:


Your 5 man example also doesn't come with a 2 wound sorcerer

Your 2 Wound sorcerer doesn't have any options, must roll on a table which has a 50% chance of getting a spell which will drain your WC pool like nobodies business, and has a primas power that is less reliable then my father being sober on a Tuesday. You would not take that 90 point model as a stand alone model, but for some reason when they stick him in a group of terminators he becomes awesome? No I'm sorry don't point at a stupidly expensive WC battery and say but its super awesome. I can get a ML 1 Sorc with no mark and termie armor and pick a primas power that's not gak, add in a Spell Familiar and your paying 10 points more and are very likely to actually cast the spell, have a non primas worth casting, and not drain your WC pool in the process.

1. Sorcerer (60), ML2 (25), Termi armor (20), MoT (15). It is 120 and it is lacking fearless and the ap3 bolter. Other than that, we are more or less in agreement.

2. Happy new year!

topaxygouroun i wrote:
1. Sorcerer (60), ML2 (25), Termi armor (20), MoT (15). It is 120 and it is lacking fearless and the ap3 bolter. Other than that, we are more or less in agreement.

2. Happy new year!

For me no spell familiar and being forced to roll on a table that can't give the SOT the BoT buff is a non starter. A ML 1 Sorc with a Spell Familiar is, cheaper, more versatile, and wont drain your WC pool. In the end it seems like your better off bringing a unit of Regular Terminators in a TS detachment and then allying a non mark Legion to get a Sorcerer, or two, and use those, which will be much more efficient on warp charges and gives you more reliable options to buff your SOT.

 Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
1. Sorcerer (60), ML2 (25), Termi armor (20), MoT (15). It is 120 and it is lacking fearless and the ap3 bolter. Other than that, we are more or less in agreement.

2. Happy new year!

For me no spell familiar and being forced to roll on a table that can't give the SOT the BoT buff is a non starter. A ML 1 Sorc with a Spell Familiar is, cheaper, more versatile, and wont drain your WC pool. In the end it seems like your better off bringing a unit of Regular Terminators in a TS detachment and then allying a non mark Legion to get a Sorcerer, or two, and use those, which will be much more efficient on warp charges and gives you more reliable options to buff your SOT.

A scarab occult champion knows the Force spell and can give his unit the Blessing of Tzeentch. And he also has access to divination, when a normal sorcerer doesn't. And the new discipline of Tzeentch has great powers. A ML1 sorc is not more versatile than a ML2 scarab champion. A spell familiar is a nice thing, but then again adding spell familiars to 6+ sorcerers in a whole list can end up being very expensive. When our lists generate 25-30 WC, we can afford having one or two sorcerers without a spell familiar.

I'm throwing my dice behind scarab occult termies doing pretty well. I've used them in several competitive games using a full war cabal at 1850 going against standard tau, white scar, and space wolf armies. The terminators were instrumental in all the games for taking down thunderwolf cavalry, stormsurges, and white scar bikers galore. They are great when used effectively against the correct targets. If you guys don't like them, that's fine, but you don't have to be condescending to others who are saying they are finding uses for them.

 nintura wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Occult Termies are garbage, same with rubric marines, I think most players with good sense of game mechanics like Drasius understand this.

Standard termies are better than Occult in every way. We don't have to use termicide squads for comparison.

A 5 man Termie unit in a TS CAD with mark of Tz with 4 PF, 1 LC, 5x combi-meltas cost less than a unit of Occult. They can shred thru MEQ, TEQs, MCs, and vehicles, while Occult is only confined to MEQs. They can get 3++ as easily as Occults if you attach a Astral Grim Sorcerer to it.

Your 5 man example also doesn't come with a 2 wound sorcerer

lol the Aspiring sorcerer as many people pointed out is a tax more than anything else. For comparison, I can bring a bunch of unmarked BL sorcerers from the Cycploia Cabal formation in and attached to multiple 4 man TS Termies with combi-meltas and PF.

Unmark Sorcerer- ML2, Bike, spell familiar is 30 pts more than a Aspiring sorcerer: You get a IC that is T5, can move 12" and turboboost, re-roll failed psychic tests, can throw all powers into a single discipline to get primaris (Get shriek and potentially invis). Yes he doesn't have AP3 shooting but he can bring a force axe and cut down TEQs.

Drasius I commend your patience in trying to school these guys, but most likely they are just casual players who don't care about competitive play. If they like competitive play, let them learn for themselves

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

 nintura wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Occult Termies are garbage, same with rubric marines, I think most players with good sense of game mechanics like Drasius understand this.

Standard termies are better than Occult in every way. We don't have to use termicide squads for comparison.

A 5 man Termie unit in a TS CAD with mark of Tz with 4 PF, 1 LC, 5x combi-meltas cost less than a unit of Occult. They can shred thru MEQ, TEQs, MCs, and vehicles, while Occult is only confined to MEQs. They can get 3++ as easily as Occults if you attach a Astral Grim Sorcerer to it.

Your 5 man example also doesn't come with a 2 wound sorcerer

lol the Aspiring sorcerer as many people pointed out is a tax more than anything else. For comparison, I can bring a bunch of unmarked BL sorcerers from the Cycploia Cabal formation in and attached to multiple 4 man TS Termies with combi-meltas and PF.

Unmark Sorcerer- ML2, Bike, spell familiar is 30 pts more than a Aspiring sorcerer: You get a IC that is T5, can move 12" and turboboost, re-roll failed psychic tests, can throw all powers into a single discipline to get primaris (Get shriek and potentially invis). Yes he doesn't have AP3 shooting but he can bring a force axe and cut down TEQs.

Drasius I commend your patience in trying to school these guys, but most likely they are just casual players who don't care about competitive play. If they like competitive play, let them learn for themselves

Why do you raise arguments about non marked IC's in a Thousand Son army discussion? Unmarked characters are not part of the Thousand Son army so your example is largely irrelevant. It is about as valid as stating that Scarabs are bad because a Jugger Khorne lord has bigger damage output. Also, you just say completely abstract matters that make no sense. What unit is your bike sorc running in? Is he going around solo with no invul save? Are you giving him a unit? If you are, do you add its cost to your alternative or do you just assume you get that for free? Also what will the cost of the whole unmarked detachment you are taking along your sorcerer? Or you are playing unbound? Long story short, you are arguing with zero reasoning and you are just comparing single models taken completely out of context. You are the one hurting the new players, because there are literally zero conclusions with meaning that can be extracted from your input. And at any rate, your example is pretty bad. I would still have a sorcerer akin to the scarab champion layout rather than the model you describe.

Also this is your second consecutive post where you are -sideways- trying to put yourself in the "competitive dudes" and calmly patronize "us casual players" which "need schooling" by "patient guys". Do not do that, it's a douche move.

Fine, as a competitive player I say they're okay. They aren't great, but with both a Cannon and Launcher and rolling on Telepathy, you got a unit that ain't half bad. Plus the Tzeentch discipline isn't total gak now so that's nice.

I already argued my case several pages back. Most people already came to the consensus that Thousand Son army that only consist of units from the WoM book is not competitive.

The best way to optimize a TS list is to combine other CSM factions. TS can probably bring the hardest/mobile deathstar for CSM right now. A CAD using seerbane and astral grim sorcerers with a bunch of marked termies. Cyclopia conclave to fish for all the best powers and maybe a AL Cad for the mindveil.

Interesting. I'm in the top 3 for rankings of two different factions in the ITC and in the top 20 for two more so clearly I play competitively. I've beaten three standard tournament lists using the terminators and WoM detachments so far and haven't actually lost a game yet using them. I'm sure any failures you're experiencing from using them don't stem from your own inability though. Certainly your opinion here is fact and there can be no way of using them effectively...

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
Drasius I commend your patience in trying to school these guys, but most likely they are just casual players who don't care about competitive play. If they like competitive play, let them learn for themselves

Yeah, your attitude is pathetic and you're acting like a complete ass. You have no understanding of other people's local meta's or how competitive they are and what tricks they employ to make certain units work.
For the record, there are some players who attend tournaments or consider their gaming groups' to be 'competitive' that recommend Scarab Occult in different situations. Instead of taking the high and mighty road and labelling people as "casuals" because they have a divergent opinion to yours, try to respect that not every area is identical to yours and people have different perceptions of what is competitive. As an example, the difference between what was considered competitive in ETC WHFB as played in Europe and ETC WHFB as played in Australia or the USA was sometimes very pronounced.

 lessthanjeff wrote:
Interesting. I'm in the top 3 for rankings of two different factions in the ITC and in the top 20 for two more so clearly I play competitively. I've beaten three standard tournament lists using the terminators and WoM detachments so far and haven't actually lost a game yet using them. I'm sure any failures you're experiencing from using them don't stem from your own inability though. Certainly your opinion here is fact and there can be no way of using them effectively...

@SonsofVulkan Proof is in the pudding.

I just beaten a white scar gladius today using WoM detachments. Omniscient oracles and Magnus and a daemon cad. Anyone can beat anyone with good luck and even greater skills. But math and basic statistics is pretty solid no matter where you play or whatever faq format.

If one of those tournament armies you beat was gladius using the war cabal then I am truly impressed/surprised. There aren't much ITC sanctioned tourneys in my area, but I see people going 3-2 or 4-1 at one or 2 major GT with a weaker codex like Nids or Dark Eldars and they can be top 3 on the ITC list. Still it's impressive no doubt.

 lessthanjeff wrote:
Interesting. I'm in the top 3 for rankings of two different factions in the ITC and in the top 20 for two more so clearly I play competitively. I've beaten three standard tournament lists using the terminators and WoM detachments so far and haven't actually lost a game yet using them. I'm sure any failures you're experiencing from using them don't stem from your own inability though. Certainly your opinion here is fact and there can be no way of using them effectively...

Do you mind writing up about the effective ways you have been using the new units? I'd really love to read about it!

 Drasius wrote:
snip

You are guilty of making up your mind before really examining the actual information.

Costing the different units mentioned as a retinue:

6W of 4++ Possessed : 186pts
6W of 4++ Warp Talons : 226pts
6W of 4++ Termies : 218pts
6W of 4++ Scarabs (removed 2x ML) : 200pts

They don't come out that badly priced from my perspective. The cost of adding one-use Combis on 6x normal Termies will cover Missiles and a Soulcannon. We have to add the mandatory 2x MLs which amount to an extra 50pts, and that's reasonable considering it's 45pts for 2WC in Heralds Anarchic.

Ok. All that aside, yes, there is an issue against AV11+ and 2+. That's exactly the kind of issue to address constructively in a tactics thread.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 Drasius wrote:
snip

You are guilty of making up your mind before really examining the actual information.

Costing the different units mentioned as a retinue:

6W of 4++ Possessed : 186pts
6W of 4++ Warp Talons : 226pts
6W of 4++ Termies : 218pts
6W of 4++ Scarabs (removed 2x ML) : 200pts

They don't come out that badly priced from my perspective. The cost of adding one-use Combis on 6x normal Termies will cover Missiles and a Soulcannon. We have to add the mandatory 2x MLs which amount to an extra 50pts, and that's reasonable considering it's 45pts for 2WC in Heralds Anarchic.

Ok. All that aside, yes, there is an issue against AV11+ and 2+. That's exactly the kind of issue to address constructively in a tactics thread.

I thought Scarabs are 40 pts each, so 6W worth is 240 pts. 6W of Termies with mark is like 216. The Aspiring Sorcerer is a 90 pt tax. Edit: oh I see what you did there, but that is not a good comparison, 6Ws of Scarab is still only 5 models compared to 6 models of Termies that can take power axe for free or PF for 7 pts.

I think what Drasius meant is that comparing Occult to 2 of the worse/over-costed units from a very weak 6th ed codex does not make Occult any better, they are just better than 2 bad units.

The bottom line is if TS don't combine forces with other CSM factions, they will not be able to deal with mass AV11+. A single Iron Priest on TW will probably tie up a unit of Occult for the whole game.

Well, what do you have that could victoriously engage a multiwound 2+ model? Any ideas?

Massed AV11+ is more challenging, fun puzzle. But don't forget after blowing up all those free Rhinos, you still have something like 40-50 marines to mop up. In which case, the Scarab Terminators are finally playing to their strengths.

How effective is Heretech at dealing with mass vehicles?