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@Chaos Legionnaire
This was discussed before and I will quote what was said then now:

topaxygouroun i wrote:
The formation is written on your list. Your army is on the battlefield. Your list doesn't change if a unit dies. You keep the rerolls to the last man.

Completely software design-wise, in a different case the wording would be "While the war cabal contains the maximum amount of units..." which would suggest a continuous situation that would end when the clause of the "while" would cease to function. A wording of "If...then..." is usually taken into account instantaneously.

This pretty much covers it, basically if GW wanted you to lose the bonus they would have worded it differently. In fact in their previous book in the Fenris campaign the Tetrad formation specifically stated that if units are lost so are bonuses, these new formations do not specify as such.

The oddity comes in when you look at the wording of the Thousand Sons formations and the ones of the Kakophoni and Plague Colony.

Thousand Sons Rehati War Sect:
"Favoured of Tzeentch: If a Rehati War Sect contains the maximum number of units, then units from the Formation can re-roll any failed saving throws of 1."

Turn the page and we see this:

Plague Colony:
"Enervating Pestilential Aura: ... If this Formation includes the maximum number of units at the start of the battle, then enemy units within 7'..."

Why are they worded differently, with the thousand sons ones all ommiting the bit about the start of the battle? I certainly read it that if you shell out for the full number of units that you get your re-rolls until the end of the game, but by RAW, technically you should lose them once you lose a unit. I severely doubt that's what GW intended, but it also didn't intend for the RAW wording of the tau's combined fire rule to hand out buffmander's bonus to the entire tau army either, but that's exactly what it did by RAW, hence why they changed the wording of the rule. GW also seems to hate the Sons with a passion, so who knows, maybe that is what they intend?

My local will certainly be playing it RAI though, but that doesn't really help anyone else.

*sigh*
I haven't picked up the Traitor legions book yet because I want to finish my TS before I am tempted by another legion so I didn't realise the wording of other formations in the Traitor legion book specify filled formations at the start of the battle.
This is the second time this month I have discussed a rules issue where it does not specify either way what it means whilst other similar rules (in the same publication!) do.

I wonder whether GW do these inconsistencies on purpose for sadistic pleasure.

Once again: *sigh*

I would still play it as you keep the bonus even after a unit is killed otherwise the rule becomes very expensive for how unreliable it would be.

So, the list of FAQ material:

- Blessing of Tzeentch interactions (what qualifies, can it be cancelled by Culexus)
- Favored of Tzeentch interactions (can the bonus be removed by unit losses)
- Siphon Magic triggers (if affects self, tokens carried over into subsequent phases + turns)
- Does Baleful Devolution affect a single model (or do attacks "spill over" to the squad)
- Force Weapon substitutions for the Force Stave (missing options)
- Mark of Tzeentch restrictions (max save, interactions with modifiers)
- Deep Striking Warlord trait (what is needed to confer zero scatter)
- +1 psychic power WL trait (does it confer a ML to non-psykers)
- Scarab Terminator lack of 'Slow and Purposeful' (possible oversight?)
- # of max powers manifested in groups of multiple IC psykers (possibly in BRB)
- Treason of Tzeentch used multiple times on the same unit (legality)
- Charge restrictions for created Spawn (Magnus, Devolution)

Any more?

We also need to know if siphon tokens carry over into the next turn since they aren't called warp charge.

It would also be nice if they clarified how many psychic powers can be cast from a mixed unit of psykers. It was a mess after the FAQ with some people saying a group of 3 ML3 psykers can only cast 3 powers and others saying 9 and I am sure my mentioning of it will lead people to argue about it again (although I hope not).

Added those. I think it's best if we keep the rules questions out of the tactics thread.

Terminator armor gives relentless. No real need for slow and purposeful.

 Lansirill wrote:
Terminator armor gives relentless. No real need for slow and purposeful.

that'd be my guess

I don't think there's any oversight with the Scarab Occult. They are in Tartaros - i.e. 'fast' - Terminator armour but presumably don't get actual Tartaros rules because they are Rubrics. Ergo, Relentless but now Slow and Purposeful.

I'm wondering if Soulreaper Cannons are worth it if you intend to take 10 man Rubric units anyway, and should you take both that and a missile launcher on the Scarabs...tough choices when points are so limited.

I hope that's true. Or maybe their Sorcerer is a more inspirational Rubric herder due to his better ML.

did GW publish rules for taratos termy armor in 40k or is it still just FW rules?

Well, I think that the mark is limit to improve "until" a max of +3. That is not the same that have a max of 3++ from any source.

Lets go to another example, invented of course. Imagine that the Mark of nurgle increase toughness +1 to a max of 5. Sure no one will tell you you cant go over toughness 5 if you increate it thanks Biomancy.

This is the same, you can't go better than a 3++ thanks the mark. but does not mean you can't got one better thanks other ways or sources.


Now more focused on the TS tactics, I think that the best way to help TS on their WC problem is use some demons. A pandemonium of Tzeentch with scribes and the herald formation. For less 500 pts you got the 3 blue horrors or 11 each, the blue scribes and 3 lv heralds. Those are 15 WC. And, important, the blue scribes with a 50% each turn of summon free (and since are not psi, they never will be dead by summon a great daemon).
True that blue scribes doesnt provide dices...but the chance of got free incursion or possesion (3 charges) think is cool.

Indeed scribes and blue horrors are weak and should be hidden and far from enemy forces, But they are the defense of the heralds.

Other option could be a deemon cad with 2 lv2 heralds and 2 units of 12 or 13 pinks horrors (one with icon....believe me, the icon helps sooo much to summon where you want xD). Maybe one heral with the relic that doubles the split on horrors and the other with paradox. Dont provide as much WC, but are obsec and if the enemy shoots them could be an horror mess. Also cost less so you can use those points on more TS army or to put a soulgrinder to cover the lack of large blasts.


In any case is very very sad that the TS, being an army focused on magic, have no way to get large amounts of warp dices by their own, needing being allied with daemons. With this new release and the fact of GW actually making new miniatures, think they lost the GREAT chance of add some cheap psi guy (like they did to the imperium with those Astropath 25pts psickers). The Thrall Wizards could be the perfect add to the TS army since they will solve the lack of cheap psickers as well a nice touch for the lore and will allow play pure TS army with no need of demons... Because if you want focus con magic, a pure TS usually have a WC problem. and if you dont focus on magic, why use TS? xDD

Well a mainstream release of Kairic acolytes is coming for AOS. Here's hoping they port over to 40k and have a WC farming ability.

Franarok wrote:
Well, I think that the mark is limit to improve "until" a max of +3. That is not the same that have a max of 3++ from any source.

I agree as my reading of the pg 30 CSM rule (to a maximum of 3+) is not a limitation on the overall invul save, just how far the MoT, itself, can take the save, which is 3+. That's not a stretch since the section in question is strictly talking about the MoT. There are no rules stating how and when the MoT is to be applied so it is left up to the controlling player to decide how that happens. As long as I state that I am applying the MoT before I am applying the +1 invul from the Blessing of Tzeentch Special rule, I haven't violated any conditions and can receive the benefit of both. Therefore if I play a Sorcerer that starts with a 3++ Invul save (due to Sigil of Corruption and MoT) I need only to state that I am applying the MoT, first, when I have met the conditions to also receive the benefit from Blessing of Tzeentch. This isnt a stretch either since we are talking about a new book which is giving major buffs to an old and antiquated codex. It's a rules question, which isn't for here but the implications on the meta are significant as the ability to have a 2++ Sorcerer can still make them a worthwhile unit and doesn't make Exalted Sorcerers an auto take.

If you're applying the MoT but have a state-based effect that gives you a 3++, you still only have a 3++. It doesn't matter when you apply the mark. If the mark states that it cannot be used to improve beyond a 3++, then it doesn't matter.


if I remember correctly, Blessing states it gives you a +1 to your INV so;

Stormshield equiv + MoT == 3++

Stormshield equiv + MoT + Blessing == 2++

If you have a 4 up INV + MoT + Blessing == 2++

Hope so too!

Also a variant of the Magnus lsit someone posted before but to a 1500 pts could be

Daemons:
Lorestealer
- Blue Scribes
- 11 blue horrors with icon
- 11 blue horrors
- 10 blue horrors
Herals Anarchic
- lv2 herald
- lv2 herald
- lv1 herald

TSons:
War cabal
- Ahriman with disk
- Scarab Occult terminators
- 5 Rubric marines
- lv2 sorcerer with astral grimore and familiar
- lv2 exalted sorcerer with familiar and Seer’s Bane
- Predator with tlinked laser cannon

My wish is give the Seer’s Bane user a disk to make him more durable and the estra attack. Maybe could quit Ahriman one and give to him. OR replace Ahriman by an exalted sorcerer so with the 100 saved point can give the new one and the Seer’s Baneone both a disk and still have 40 point to more stuff....mmmmm
Also the idea is put the astral sorcerer with the grimore and the Seer’s Bane exalted on the terminator unit.

The laser predator is a bad try of have some antitank

The army gives 24 (1 or 2 less less if change Ahriman) WC plus the extra 1d6 and the extra spell on the tsons mages. With "a bit" of luck should be enough to summon with the heralds nasty stuff the initial turns to compensate the lack of punch (the screamers are nice, but think that the plaguedrones are even better).

No forget the blue scribes and their chance of free summon (summoning a great daemon free and, important, ignoring the sacrifice part is nasty haha). But you can have bad luck and always have the poor beam one. Also you need hide them xD.




By the way, someone tried the portal? It used to be terrible bad, but now maybe shoot and kill 3 pink horrors that comes out from it maybe is not the best of ideas if you cant kill all and you start an horror pandemic

Besides the rules issues, I have a question about the Viability of one of the formations. This may seem silly but I wanted to run Ahrimans Exiles at full strength. Ahriman and 9 sorcerers. I know this is expensive but I love the idea of this unit on the table. I was going to Support them with a Imperial Deamon Knight of Tzeentch.

Any advice on if this could work or how best to equip the unit would be much appreciated. I know this is not optimal, but I would like to try this out with the best chances. I am looking for a list at 1850 for my LGS.

You need bodies to hide those sorcs in unless they all have discs.

Well, always can join all on a same unit giving all disks, lv3 and familiars.
The one with Seer’s Bane having biomancy, ahriman focusing on shoot powers and the other on sinistrum or/and heretech.

If you add a small cad with Belakor and 2 cultist to provide invisibility and Lorestealer formation to provide more dices you have a nice deathstar

You can melt from distance with at least 3 telepathy primaris from Ahriman, be able to resist attacks thanks belakor and some sinistrum buff and tear apart at melee with biomancy and Seer’s Bane.

Problem? you are an enigma on the table hahaha, really very few models

No idea of the points, but think that provide the herald a portal glyph could works, since surely no one will care a **** of it hahaa. Maybe the extra dices from incoming pink horrors could help.

 Bach wrote:

Franarok wrote:
Well, I think that the mark is limit to improve "until" a max of +3. That is not the same that have a max of 3++ from any source.

I agree as my reading of the pg 30 CSM rule (to a maximum of 3+) is not a limitation on the overall invul save, just how far the MoT, itself, can take the save, which is 3+. That's not a stretch since the section in question is strictly talking about the MoT. There are no rules stating how and when the MoT is to be applied so it is left up to the controlling player to decide how that happens. As long as I state that I am applying the MoT before I am applying the +1 invul from the Blessing of Tzeentch Special rule, I haven't violated any conditions and can receive the benefit of both. Therefore if I play a Sorcerer that starts with a 3++ Invul save (due to Sigil of Corruption and MoT) I need only to state that I am applying the MoT, first, when I have met the conditions to also receive the benefit from Blessing of Tzeentch. This isnt a stretch either since we are talking about a new book which is giving major buffs to an old and antiquated codex. It's a rules question, which isn't for here but the implications on the meta are significant as the ability to have a 2++ Sorcerer can still make them a worthwhile unit and doesn't make Exalted Sorcerers an auto take.

If it works the way you're suggesting then the limitation will never come into effect because the player could always choose to apply the MoT +1 before any other bonuses. I would agree that if you can boost your invul to a 2++ through other means like cursed earth and grimoire so that the mark isn't being used at all then that would be ok, but I wouldn't let a character apply the +1 from MoT to get to a 2++.

Is there any way to just not summon. I hate summoning with a passion but love TS

Franarok wrote:
Well, always can join all on a same unit giving all disks, lv3 and familiars.
The one with Seer’s Bane having biomancy, ahriman focusing on shoot powers and the other on sinistrum or/and heretech.

If you add a small cad with Belakor and 2 cultist to provide invisibility and Lorestealer formation to provide more dices you have a nice deathstar

You can melt from distance with at least 3 telepathy primaris from Ahriman, be able to resist attacks thanks belakor and some sinistrum buff and tear apart at melee with biomancy and Seer’s Bane.

Problem? you are an enigma on the table hahaha, really very few models

No idea of the points, but think that provide the herald a portal glyph could works, since surely no one will care a **** of it hahaa. Maybe the extra dices from incoming pink horrors could help.

I am looking to cap the Formation at about 1300 pts and use the remaining 550 for Support. In the Formation I was going to use a mix of Disc Sorcerers, and the relic to allow them all to move like Jump troops.

One of the big advantages of disc is the ability to shoot everything in the psychic phase, then turbo boost out of reach in the shooting. You can't do that with the Grimoire because it only gives them Jump for the movement phase.

 nintura wrote:
One of the big advantages of disc is the ability to shoot everything in the psychic phase, then turbo boost out of reach in the shooting. You can't do that with the Grimoire because it only gives them Jump for the movement phase.

That is a great point, thank you. I will have to reconsider now. Everyone on Discs is a definite advantage for the range game.

What would you suggest for support?

I also have another question about the Scarab Terminators. Everyone keeps saying that they can only have power swords. But under options is says any Terminator may replace their weapon with items from the Terminator Weapons list. The Terminator Weapons list has options for a number of different weapon options. Am I missing something?

KnightScion wrote:

 nintura wrote:
One of the big advantages of disc is the ability to shoot everything in the psychic phase, then turbo boost out of reach in the shooting. You can't do that with the Grimoire because it only gives them Jump for the movement phase.

That is a great point, thank you. I will have to reconsider now. Everyone on Discs is a definite advantage for the range game.

What would you suggest for support?

I also have another question about the Scarab Terminators. Everyone keeps saying that they can only have power swords. But under options is says any Terminator may replace their weapon with items from the Terminator Weapons list. The Terminator Weapons list has options for a number of different weapon options. Am I missing something?

I can't help with support because I suck at knowing what's available. Just too many books. But Scarab Termies do not have what you claim unless it's in the Traitor's Legion. In WoM and in their box, they only have power swords with no options to replace them.

KnightScion wrote:

I also have another question about the Scarab Terminators. Everyone keeps saying that they can only have power swords. But under options is says any Terminator may replace their weapon with items from the Terminator Weapons list. The Terminator Weapons list has options for a number of different weapon options. Am I missing something?

It doesn't say that at all. Are you using a roster editor?

eosgreen wrote:
Is there any way to just not summon. I hate summoning with a passion but love TS

Yeah?

Uhh... Just don't summon stuff?

KnightScion wrote:

I also have another question about the Scarab Terminators. Everyone keeps saying that they can only have power swords. But under options is says any Terminator may replace their weapon with items from the Terminator Weapons list. The Terminator Weapons list has options for a number of different weapon options. Am I missing something?

They aren't 'terminators' they are 'scarab occult terminators', you might be reading the wrong thing.

I don't know where the hate for Scarabs comes from. Yeah they can't hurt things with a 2+, but where are you really dealing with that 24/7?

Captyn_Bob wrote:

KnightScion wrote:

I also have another question about the Scarab Terminators. Everyone keeps saying that they can only have power swords. But under options is says any Terminator may replace their weapon with items from the Terminator Weapons list. The Terminator Weapons list has options for a number of different weapon options. Am I missing something?

It doesn't say that at all. Are you using a roster editor?

This is what I am reading

OPTIONS:
• May include up to six additional
Rubric Terminators................................................xx pts/model
• Any Rubric Terminator may replace take an item from the
Terminator Weapons List.
• For every five models in the unit, one Rubric Terminator
may replace their Inferno Combi-bolter with an item from
the Heavy Weapons list.
• For every five models in the unit, one Rubric Terminator may
also take
a hellfyremissile rack (pg 156