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With the new Horror rules from Wrath of Magnus coming out and the "Split" and "Split again" rules being leaked, I though it would be good to start a tactics thread on them.
This can be for using them, or defeating them, either way.

Initial thoughts: Unless FAQ'd, all Horrors can still use Malefic Daemonology. Just because they do not have it listed on their list of powers does NOT inherently revoke access to a rule that the BRB gives specific access to. It doesn't appear to be RAI, since other entries in the same book DO have Malefic Daemonology listed, but RAW, Horrors can still use it. Moving on.

16 Horrors may be the stand unit size for Pink Horrors (if they are taken at all)
I suspect that if you only take 11, opponents will just kill 1+ to reduce the WC, then ignore the Pinks for the remained of the game, killing the Blue and Brimstone units in later phases.
With 16 horrors, however, the unit is sizable enough to want to address it. If they kill 6 models to reduce WC, the Blue horror unit created will generate 2 WC. So the Deamon player will have 3 WC in their next turn either way (unless you can damage them in multiple phases)
1 unit of 16 is cheaper than 2 of 11 and requires less models, yet can still produce quite a few free units.

But really, most players will just skip the Pinks in favor of Blue Horrors, since they still produce 2WC at 11+ models, and are almost half the cost of Pinks.
An exception to this might be for those wanting to use the Warpflame Formations, which (unless otherwise stated) using Pink Horrors, not Blue nor Brimstone ones

Assault seems to be the only way to really kill the Horrors, since removing the whole unit from a failed Instability test is the only thing the prevents the "Split" rules

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I'd still take pink horrors over blue for the increased number of unit splits. In non kill point games you could quiet easily spread your horrors around so a new unit is created after each round of shooting leading to lots of small ML1 units.

True. I used to always do 2x 11, but now I am thinking 1x 16 will be less frustrating for both players.

Modelwise, it will be hard for most to get all the models needed, since the only way to get Blue horrors is 3 from the Chariot or 4 from Silver Tower, along with only 4 Brimstone horrors. I'll probably paint a bit of blue onto my Pinks just so that I can "reuse" them as Blue horrors.
So for each pink Horrors that dies, I will use that model plus 1 mostly Blue Horror for the 2 Blues created, keeping the actual Blues in between the 2 units to mark the squad differences.
Since the Blues to Brimstones are a 1:1 model ratio, I will probably do the same, but get a handful of actual Brimstones to represent the unit.
Hopefully in this way, I would only need 2-3 models for every 1 Pink Horror I field, rather than 5 total models (1 Pink, 2 Blues, 2 Brimstones).

These units + all the Nurglings I have are making my Daemons quite the Horde list.
I am really curious if Blue & Brimstone Horrors will be allowed to be taken in the Warpflame Host. If they are, I can see a lot of that formation popping up.

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Its a logistical nightmare for any tournament player who wants to abuse the horror splits.

I'm gonna run a CAD of 2x11 blue horrors to sit on OBJs, since the 11 brimstones they create will also be OBJSEC

EDIT: Since I'll need to save as much points for big daddy Magnus

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

I'm gonna run a CAD of 2x11 blue horrors to sit on OBJs, since the 11 brimstones they create will also be OBJSEC

Will they be? I thought the final FAQ said that units "summoned" or otherwise created would not benefit from detachment bonuses
I may have misread. I'll go check now

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 Galef wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

I'm gonna run a CAD of 2x11 blue horrors to sit on OBJs, since the 11 brimstones they create will also be OBJSEC

Will they be? I thought the final FAQ said that units "summoned" or otherwise created would not benefit from detachment bonuses
I may have misread. I'll go check now

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It could go either ways, depending on the tournament you go to. Most tournament formats (in the US) FAQ it as no, they are not ObSec (i.e. troop tervigon spawning gants).

For the purposes of game balance, I believe we will see the ruling that they are not ObSec. Otherwise, it really becomes quite ludicrous (as if it wasn't already).

Right, that is what I was thinking. Not Obsec unless purchased as part of your army list. Units created by special rules or powers are not purchased as part of your detachment, and thus will not benefit from detachment rules.
For the sake of this discussion, I will assume this is the case.

Pink Horrors a very nasty unit to Summon now, as you get 10 horrors for free and they split into more Horrors. It's easily the most "wounds" you can summon

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I'm sticking with 2 units, just for the extra splits, and because Brimstone Horrors are going to be double-fragile to Instability. While they have 2 wounds, they're only T1. While this gives them "some" resistance against Perils or Grav in theory, this simply means each Brimstone removed is another -2 modifier to the Instability check...which can potentially really hurt if it's a Multi-assault.

On a funnier note, Horror-splitting makes for amusing anti-Interceptor Insurance if you're using them for Deepstrike.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

On a funnier note, Horror-splitting makes for amusing anti-Interceptor Insurance if you're using them for Deepstrike.

Oh my Tzeentch! you just made me thing of something.
Deep Strike Pink Horrors intentionally into terrain (you want cover anyway) and any Pinks killed by Dangerous Terrain tests will create a new unit of Blue Horrors which add to your WC total.

That then brings up another question. If a unit of Blue horrors is created in your movement or psyhic phase (due to perils or whatever) is that unit allowed to assault?
Not that you would want them to at all, but it the "Spit" rules do not say they are coming from reserve and are more like Termagants spawns by a Tevigon, which can assault the turn they are spawned.

The plot thickens
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Termagaunst spawned cannot assault.

Sanctuary, Sanctuary! That sounds like it would combo hilariously with a Gorepack Khornedog Cabalstar.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Termagaunst spawned cannot assault.

So they changed it from the 6th ed Codex, or is that from the draft FAQ?
Either way, assaulting with S2,T2 models is a bad idea.

 Galef wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Termagaunst spawned cannot assault.

So they changed it from the 6th ed Codex, or is that from the draft FAQ?
Either way, assaulting with S2,T2 models is a bad idea.

It's a Codex change.

On another note, assault is definitely going to be the main way to deal with Horrors. If you shoot them, don't shoot them with the units you want to use for Assault...or else they have the option when splitting off the new unit to spawn it directly in front and block off the assault vector.

 Galef wrote:

Modelwise, it will be hard for most to get all the models needed, since the only way to get Blue horrors is 3 from the Chariot or 4 from Silver Tower, along with only 4 Brimstone horrors. I'll probably paint a bit of blue onto my Pinks just so that I can "reuse" them as Blue horrors.
So for each pink Horrors that dies, I will use that model plus 1 mostly Blue Horror for the 2 Blues created, keeping the actual Blues in between the 2 units to mark the squad differences.
Since the Blues to Brimstones are a 1:1 model ratio, I will probably do the same, but get a handful of actual Brimstones to represent the unit.
Hopefully in this way, I would only need 2-3 models for every 1 Pink Horror I field, rather than 5 total models (1 Pink, 2 Blues, 2 Brimstones).

I can almost guarentee this rules change is to allow GW to sell us a new Blue and Brimstone Horror Kit.

I find the new horrors to be both a huge boon and a huge detriment to their current rules. Against armies like Tau, necrons and other gunline armies they seem like a HUGE pain to get off the board, while in CC they have recieved an incredible debuff, many players who don't play daemons and think the new rules are overpowered forget one thing, daemonic instability. Against pink horrors the likelyhood of you losing units to instability are high, against blue or brimstone horrors there is a chance for them to be wiped in one turn, especially if your taking units of 20 toughness 2 models, you could possibly lose combat by 10 and subsiquently lose 10 models on an average leadership role. Thats why I personally think the new rules look fairly balanced.

Reavas wrote:
I find the new horrors to be both a huge boon and a huge detriment to their current rules. Against armies like Tau, necrons and other gunline armies they seem like a HUGE pain to get off the board, while in CC they have recieved an incredible debuff, many players who don't play daemons and think the new rules are overpowered forget one thing, daemonic instability. Against pink horrors the likelyhood of you losing units to instability are high, against blue or brimstone horrors there is a chance for them to be wiped in one turn, especially if your taking units of 20 toughness 2 models, you could possibly lose combat by 10 and subsiquently lose 10 models on an average leadership role. Thats why I personally think the new rules look fairly balanced.

That's why you take as small of squads as possible so that they get wiped out from the close combat attacks instead because then they will still get to split into smaller horrors

 CrownAxe wrote:

Reavas wrote:
I find the new horrors to be both a huge boon and a huge detriment to their current rules. Against armies like Tau, necrons and other gunline armies they seem like a HUGE pain to get off the board, while in CC they have recieved an incredible debuff, many players who don't play daemons and think the new rules are overpowered forget one thing, daemonic instability. Against pink horrors the likelyhood of you losing units to instability are high, against blue or brimstone horrors there is a chance for them to be wiped in one turn, especially if your taking units of 20 toughness 2 models, you could possibly lose combat by 10 and subsiquently lose 10 models on an average leadership role. Thats why I personally think the new rules look fairly balanced.

That's why you take as small of squads as possible so that they get wiped out from the close combat attacks instead because then they will still get to split into smaller horrors

There are of course ways to minimise the damage of instability, but smaller squads are more vunerable to shooting, so its really personal preferance and what you go up against in your local meta. Also do we know the exact wording of the new rules? As it would be interesting to see if the new horrors are a seperate unit or remain in the same unit of horrors they split from. Its the little wordings that can really make a big differance to how powerful these things will be on the table. But Im definatly seeing fast, cheap CC units being a problem for the horrors

Reavas wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

Reavas wrote:
I find the new horrors to be both a huge boon and a huge detriment to their current rules. Against armies like Tau, necrons and other gunline armies they seem like a HUGE pain to get off the board, while in CC they have recieved an incredible debuff, many players who don't play daemons and think the new rules are overpowered forget one thing, daemonic instability. Against pink horrors the likelyhood of you losing units to instability are high, against blue or brimstone horrors there is a chance for them to be wiped in one turn, especially if your taking units of 20 toughness 2 models, you could possibly lose combat by 10 and subsiquently lose 10 models on an average leadership role. Thats why I personally think the new rules look fairly balanced.

That's why you take as small of squads as possible so that they get wiped out from the close combat attacks instead because then they will still get to split into smaller horrors

There are of course ways to minimise the damage of instability, but smaller squads are more vunerable to shooting, so its really personal preferance and what you go up against in your local meta. Also do we know the exact wording of the new rules? As it would be interesting to see if the new horrors are a seperate unit or remain in the same unit of horrors they split from. Its the little wordings that can really make a big differance to how powerful these things will be on the table. But Im definatly seeing fast, cheap CC units being a problem for the horrors

Yes scans of the ful horrorl rules are out (i found them in the rumors thread in the rumours forum). They create a new unit unless there is a unit of same models within 6" in which case they join the existing unit. And you get to do split no matter what except when wiped out by instability (so you would get to split even if you took wounds from instability but didn't get wiped)

Also being a smaller unit doesn't make you more vulnerable to shooitng

 CrownAxe wrote:

Reavas wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

Reavas wrote:
I find the new horrors to be both a huge boon and a huge detriment to their current rules. Against armies like Tau, necrons and other gunline armies they seem like a HUGE pain to get off the board, while in CC they have recieved an incredible debuff, many players who don't play daemons and think the new rules are overpowered forget one thing, daemonic instability. Against pink horrors the likelyhood of you losing units to instability are high, against blue or brimstone horrors there is a chance for them to be wiped in one turn, especially if your taking units of 20 toughness 2 models, you could possibly lose combat by 10 and subsiquently lose 10 models on an average leadership role. Thats why I personally think the new rules look fairly balanced.

That's why you take as small of squads as possible so that they get wiped out from the close combat attacks instead because then they will still get to split into smaller horrors

There are of course ways to minimise the damage of instability, but smaller squads are more vunerable to shooting, so its really personal preferance and what you go up against in your local meta. Also do we know the exact wording of the new rules? As it would be interesting to see if the new horrors are a seperate unit or remain in the same unit of horrors they split from. Its the little wordings that can really make a big differance to how powerful these things will be on the table. But Im definatly seeing fast, cheap CC units being a problem for the horrors

Yes scans of the ful horrorl rules are out (i found them in the rumors thread in the rumours forum). They create a new unit unless there is a unit of same models within 6" in which case they join the existing unit. And you get to do split no matter what except when wiped out by instability (so you would get to split even if you took wounds from instability but didn't get wiped)

Also being a smaller unit doesn't make you more vulnerable to shooitng

It makes you more susceptible to losing a whole unit to shooting, meaning easier victory points and you have to be more careful in both maelstrom and Purge the alien. There are perks and downsides, that's what makes this game great, its the units that ignore that and are in all cases amazing *cough* Windriders *cough* so Im excited to the new rules, and wow, so a whole new unit? that's pretty crazy

If a units toughness is reduced to 0, that unit is removed from play right? So if you get enfeeble on biomancy you could try casting enfeeble against the brimstones to remove them from play. possibly bait the denials out on a better powers (like invis or veil etc.,) and enfeeble them after the WC have been expended.

Vilehydra wrote:
If a units toughness is reduced to 0, that unit is removed from play right? So if you get enfeeble on biomancy you could try casting enfeeble against the brimstones to remove them from play. possibly bait the denials out on a better powers (like invis or veil etc.,) and enfeeble them after the WC have been expended.

Alternatively, charge them with Skitarii Vanguard or an Inquisitor with Rad Grenades (or for Blue Horrors, both!).

 JNAProductions wrote:

Vilehydra wrote:
If a units toughness is reduced to 0, that unit is removed from play right? So if you get enfeeble on biomancy you could try casting enfeeble against the brimstones to remove them from play. possibly bait the denials out on a better powers (like invis or veil etc.,) and enfeeble them after the WC have been expended.

Alternatively, charge them with Skitarii Vanguard or an Inquisitor with Rad Grenades (or for Blue Horrors, both!).

Ooh your right, gotta get them -1 T action, just imagine some vanguard charging the brimstones as they just wisp away.

Also does the rule state that a split occurs when a model is removed from play, or as a casualty etc.,?

I propose renaming them Dollars of Tzeench.

Its hard to say GW is making horrors broken so people spend money on models when they have no models to sell for it

 koooaei wrote:
I propose renaming them Dollars of Tzeench.

I think we have established you don't like them much

Here's an interesting question: Since the Split rule states that if a rule removes the whole unit (except Instability) that you place the new unit within 6" of the last Horror removed.
Does this count normal stuff like shooting?

For example, if a unit of Pink Horrors is completely wiped out in the shooting phase, do you still get to make the new unit of Blue horrors within 6" of the last Pinkie removed?
Or does that only apply to special rules that specifically "remove the whole unit" like a 1 on the Perils?

I can see an argument for not getting Split if you can kill the unit in a single phase without using a "rule" to do it. Yet I can also see the counter-argument that even conventional means of removing a unit (like shooting or killing every model in assault before Instability) are still "rules".

Thoughts?

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Can someone post the exact wording?

Sorry for the weird angles. I find it interesting that Pinks have the "Split" rule, which is detailed on the Blues' datasheet, and the Blues have the "Split Again" rule, which is detailed on the Brimstones' datasheet

I would aay that killing the whole unit still causes blue horrors to appear, i.e. the rule that states a failed saving throw causes the model to lose a wound and therefore be removed, would allow blue horrors to be spawned.