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 CrownAxe wrote:
Well an FAQ for Magnus is out and it clarified that Pink Horrors do not have Malefic anymore

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2016/12/03/wrath-of-magnus-faq/

I think everyone knew that was coming. There's no way it wasn't. What **is** surprising is that GW has FAQed a contentious rule within 7 days of it being released. I'm legitimately shocked.

30 each, so 60.
The blues and pinks are inherently better value, but yeah a way to trim down points.nurglings still have a place tho, what with shrouded and infiltrate.

I see 2x 11 Blues as the middle ground between best value and what you get. By dropping down to Blues, you save 88pts over 2x 11 Pinks. That's enough points to have a ML2 Disc Herald

Like Pinks, having 11+ in a unit gives you 2WC, yet you get effectively 2 wounds per model, 1 for the initial Blue and "1" for the Brimstone it creates.

So 2x 11 Blues + a ML2 Disc Herald cost 3pts less than 2x 11 Pinks, has 6 Total WC (compared to 4 total of the pinks), you still get 2 rolls on Malefic like you would before, yet get so many more wounds.

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Blue horrors are pretty good for warp charge spam. Two CADs full of units of 11 and four ML1 heralds gives you TWENTY EIGHT warp charges for 840 points.

The warp charge can't be easily removed either, as damaged blues will spawn brimstones, so they effectively stay at WC2 per unit even if you kill the bonus horror.

It certainly feels like GW broke 40k. I think these guys have made daemon factory lists everything people worried they'd be. If these guys summon in another four units of pinks turn one (which is VERY easily achievable, particularly with the paradox or other summoning buffs) then you're going to get an unending tide of daemons that no army has the firepower to put down, let alone suboptimal ones. Even CC heavy armies will struggle with proper bubble wrapping and layering.

The scary thing is that this isn't even half of an 1850pt list...

Meh, I only see that as maaaybe being a problem in competitive play, just setting up all those horros is going to get tedious real fast. And all they do is not die easily. It's a far cray from a wraith knight. plus not that many people are going to fork out the cash and time to build and paint all those horrors lol

Yeah, true. I don't like the idea that the only thing stopping a build is buying models though. Some guy's going to exploit it. It's pay to win, and I agree it'd be extremely boring/frustrating to play against.

I know they won't do much offensively, but defensive power is still power. Who cares about five wraithknights if all they can do is stomp 5 blue/brimstone horror units to death and you're spawning ten a turn? They're not useless in damage output though. With all those change rolls, some will get D shots, and volume flickering fire will do work.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Pink Horror has one wound, with a 5+ save, at T3. Assuming BS4, that's 1.5 wounds with the save, 2.25 past the 3+ to wound, and 3.375 with BS4 hitting.

Each Blue and Brimstone Horror is mostly the same, except at T2/1, so they get wounded on a 2+. So that's 1.5 wounds with the save, 1.8 with the 2+ to wound, and 2.7 with BS4 hitting. Times 4, because there are two blue and two brimstone horrors.

So sorry-I did the math initially mentally. It's actually 14.175 Bolter shots to take them down.

A Necron Warrior (at 4 PPM more) is one wound, with a 4+ Reanimate for 2, 4+ save for 4, wounding on 4s for 8, and hitting on 3s for 12.

For Pinks:
2/3 chance to hit
2/3 chance to wound
1/3 chance to fail save (due to re-roll of a one)
So we have a 4/27 chance to wound or just under 7 bolter shots needed.

For Blues:
2/3 chance to hit
5/6 chance to wound
1/3 chance to fail save
So we have 10/54 or just over 5 bolters needed.

For brimstone:
Same as blue.

Necron warrior:
2/3 chance to hit
1/2 chance to wound
1/2 chance to fail save
1/2 chance to fail reanimation
So we have 1/12 or 12 bolters needed

So yeah 17 (oh yes, two blue horrors are created) 27 vs 12 they might be a bit OP

(Also sorry for being such a mathlawyer, but I love maths! )

I don't know how you got a 1/3 chance for them fail their save. Rerolling ones does not upgrade a 5+save to a 3+ save.

The chance of them succeeding there save is the chance that they originally save it + the chance of a reroll multiplied by the chance of success for that reroll.

So 1/3+1/6*1/3 = 7/18 an absolutely marginal increase from there original 6/18. That is a 11/18 chance to fail.

 coblen wrote:
I don't know how you got a 1/3 chance for them fail their save. Rerolling ones does not upgrade a 5+save to a 3+ save.

The chance of them succeeding there save is the chance that they originally save it + the chance of a reroll multiplied by the chance of success for that reroll.

So 1/3+1/6*1/3 = 7/18 an absolutely marginal increase from there original 6/18. That is a 11/18 chance to fail.

Sorry I multiplied my fractions rather than added, got to remember my probability trees.

The damage comparison to the necron warrior also doesn't take into account shots that are lost to overkill, which can happen three times against the horrors, and only once against the warriors, so they'll actually be even tougher than raw maths predicts (against shooting anyway).

So anyone have any idea how to use Horrors offensively?
Assuming Blues and Brims cannot access Malefic, that leaves Change, which has some good options in Curse of the Wulfen

Do we spam horrors looking for certain spells, or do we just sit on objectives as WC batteries?

Seems like another advantage of fielding Blues over Pinks is that you get to roll more spells.

Stick behind an Aegis-go to ground for 2+ rerolling cover.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Stick behind an Aegis-go to ground for 2+ rerolling cover.

At that point, you just ignore them or go after them with a CC unit. If they can't summon, they are much less of a threat. Now if they roll Boon of Flame or Prismatic gaze, they might need to be addressed.

Speaking of, what do you think of Boon of Flame? It is worth summoning the E-Flamer? or do you choose the higher WC mode to summon 3 Screamers?
It is worth it to get a Chariot on the off change I want to summon it?

EDIT: Ignore wrong thread.. fml

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
EDIT: Ignore wrong thread.. fml

Don't worry, no one noticed.

Anyway now that I've screwed up posting in the wrong place, I might as well add my 2c to the Horror discussion.


Given that Split models that can't deploy are destroyed and don't cause more models to Spawn, the new Locus might not be as good as first thought. You're going to have trouble fitting those extra models in range if you're getting 4 Blues for every Pink, and all your opponent needs to do it shoot your unit until there's only a handful of Pink left to watch you waste Blue Horrors Splits. The age-old 11 Pinks per unit probably isn't going to change because of this. You want your opponent to either Overkill you or only kill a couple, anywhere in between could see you wasting Splits.

Given that Blue split into a single base however, it's going to be near impossible to run out of room. In that instance it might be worth getting a larger squad to maximise the number of Warp Charges you can generate.


In terms of Objective sitting mana batteries or using them as casters... I'd say it depends each game. As you said Galef, if you roll a good power from Change (like Gaze) you're going to want to use it, unless your opponent is running a horde army with no good targets for it. Boon of Flame is great too, however I don't think I'd ever summon an Exalted Flamer with it, if only because they lack Relentless and so can't do much at all on the turn you summon.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Pink Horror has one wound, with a 5+ save, at T3. Assuming BS4, that's 1.5 wounds with the save, 2.25 past the 3+ to wound, and 3.375 with BS4 hitting.

Each Blue and Brimstone Horror is mostly the same, except at T2/1, so they get wounded on a 2+. So that's 1.5 wounds with the save, 1.8 with the 2+ to wound, and 2.7 with BS4 hitting. Times 4, because there are two blue and two brimstone horrors.

So sorry-I did the math initially mentally. It's actually 14.175 Bolter shots to take them down.

A Necron Warrior (at 4 PPM more) is one wound, with a 4+ Reanimate for 2, 4+ save for 4, wounding on 4s for 8, and hitting on 3s for 12.

All you have shown is that horrors are hard to get rid of.
Being hard to get rid of does not brake a unit, being both hard to get rid of AND doing something meaningful does.

The warrior in your example, packs a "bolter" that can glance or wound anything on a 6, the horrors? do not. they generate a warp dice, and can hardly do anything meaningful with it themselves.

They are a battery charger for another unit. though to kill battery, but as long you can get rid of whatever it is they are powering up, the horrors turn rather less meaningful.

 Galef wrote:
So anyone have any idea how to use Horrors offensively?
Assuming Blues and Brims cannot access Malefic, that leaves Change, which has some good options in Curse of the Wulfen

Do we spam horrors looking for certain spells, or do we just sit on objectives as WC batteries?

Seems like another advantage of fielding Blues over Pinks is that you get to roll more spells.

Situationally, I can see a unit of pinks tarpitting an Imperial/Chaos Knight. Any spawnage, you place them around the fight like an onion peel (outside of stomps as much as you can).

 BoomWolf wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Pink Horror has one wound, with a 5+ save, at T3. Assuming BS4, that's 1.5 wounds with the save, 2.25 past the 3+ to wound, and 3.375 with BS4 hitting.

Each Blue and Brimstone Horror is mostly the same, except at T2/1, so they get wounded on a 2+. So that's 1.5 wounds with the save, 1.8 with the 2+ to wound, and 2.7 with BS4 hitting. Times 4, because there are two blue and two brimstone horrors.

So sorry-I did the math initially mentally. It's actually 14.175 Bolter shots to take them down.

A Necron Warrior (at 4 PPM more) is one wound, with a 4+ Reanimate for 2, 4+ save for 4, wounding on 4s for 8, and hitting on 3s for 12.

All you have shown is that horrors are hard to get rid of.
Being hard to get rid of does not brake a unit, being both hard to get rid of AND doing something meaningful does.

The warrior in your example, packs a "bolter" that can glance or wound anything on a 6, the horrors? do not. they generate a warp dice, and can hardly do anything meaningful with it themselves.

They are a battery charger for another unit. though to kill battery, but as long you can get rid of whatever it is they are powering up, the horrors turn rather less meaningful.

They're guaranteed Flickering Fire, pack extra Warp Charges for your other, more important psykers to use, and are nigh-impossible to get off an objective without assaulting them.

Oh, and one of their Change powers they might get? Is Strength D.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Pink Horror has one wound, with a 5+ save, at T3. Assuming BS4, that's 1.5 wounds with the save, 2.25 past the 3+ to wound, and 3.375 with BS4 hitting.

Each Blue and Brimstone Horror is mostly the same, except at T2/1, so they get wounded on a 2+. So that's 1.5 wounds with the save, 1.8 with the 2+ to wound, and 2.7 with BS4 hitting. Times 4, because there are two blue and two brimstone horrors.

So sorry-I did the math initially mentally. It's actually 14.175 Bolter shots to take them down.

A Necron Warrior (at 4 PPM more) is one wound, with a 4+ Reanimate for 2, 4+ save for 4, wounding on 4s for 8, and hitting on 3s for 12.

All you have shown is that horrors are hard to get rid of.
Being hard to get rid of does not brake a unit, being both hard to get rid of AND doing something meaningful does.

The warrior in your example, packs a "bolter" that can glance or wound anything on a 6, the horrors? do not. they generate a warp dice, and can hardly do anything meaningful with it themselves.

They are a battery charger for another unit. though to kill battery, but as long you can get rid of whatever it is they are powering up, the horrors turn rather less meaningful.

They're guaranteed Flickering Fire, pack extra Warp Charges for your other, more important psykers to use, and are nigh-impossible to get off an objective without assaulting them.

Oh, and one of their Change powers they might get? Is Strength D.

They're only BS3 and using them for witch fires cancels out the waprcharges they were making because shooting witchfires is very WC inefficient.

Also the Horrors should never use the Str D power. Between the 50% miss rate of BS3, 1/6 chance of rolling a 1 for damage, and ~20% of failing to manifest the power, you have a very low chance of doing any damage at all (and you wasted 7WCs)

Point is, they aren't useless. Just because other things are MORE USEFUL doesn't invalidate that. (And they help out the more useful people just by existing.)

Nobody claimed they are useless.

The claim was that they are not too good as they can't do much on their own.

They are going to cost a ton of actual money for a suboptimal unit.

Fingers crossed for the Tzeentch Getting started box that includes Pink, Blue, and Brimstone horrors.

Nothing Says Blue Horrors cannot Use Daemonology? (GW Said Pink Cannot)

So Could you Field Units of Pink Horrors To Intentionally Cap Objectives and play Mind Games on the Opponent (Let me Cap the Objectives OR get a Bajillion More Pink Horrors in your face, Your Choice) and use it to distract them while something bjg and Scary Runs up the Board...

 commander dante wrote:
Nothing Says Blue Horrors cannot Use Daemonology? (GW Said Pink Cannot)

So Could you Field Units of Pink Horrors To Intentionally Cap Objectives and play Mind Games on the Opponent (Let me Cap the Objectives OR get a Bajillion More Pink Horrors in your face, Your Choice) and use it to distract them while something bjg and Scary Runs up the Board...

They didn't mention blue horrors or brimstone in their FAQ on the use of malefic, however I am sure RAI they won't get it either and if people start using malefic with blues there may be abother FAQ.

 adamsouza wrote:
They are going to cost a ton of actual money for a suboptimal unit.

Fingers crossed for the Tzeentch Getting started box that includes Pink, Blue, and Brimstone horrors.

They're going to cost a lot to field, yes, but sub optimal they are not.

Are they game breaking? Not to my mind. Don't get me wrong, I think they're great but I don't think you'll see top tables filled with Pink Horror spam. It's just too clumsy to work in a timed environment.

They're excellent in the sense that they made a mid to high tier army better but I think you'll see the same two to three units of 11 Horrors in the top Daemons lists as they handily solve the problem of board presence in an army whose best builds consist of 1 to 2 large death stars or FMC spam

 Galef wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
I've calculated that horrors are ~7.5 times more durable than Magnus vs bolters point to point.

Wait. are you saying that 72 Pink Horrors (~650pts) takes 7x the amount of bolter fire to kill than Magnus?
Which is basically saying that 10 Pink Horrors = Magnus in terms of durability.

Bolters firing at Magnus:
1/6 to wound, 1/2 re-rolling ones - 5/12 to get past the save, 7 wounds ~ 100.8 bolter hits required to kill Magnus.

Bolters firing at pink horrors:
2/3 to wound, 1/3 re-rolling ones - 11/18 to get past the save - 2.(45) bolter hits to kill a horror.

Than it spawns 2 lesser horrors, 5/6 to wound, 11/18 to get past the save - 3.92(72) bolter hits to kill 2 lesser horrors.

Than they spawn 1 even lesser horror each - 5/6 to wound, 11/18 to get past the save - 3.92(72) bolter hits to kill 2 even lesser horrors.

Resulting in 10.3(09) bolter hits to kill one horror and everything he spawns - btw, that's 4.2 times more durable than non-splitting horrors.

Magnus costs as much as 72.(2) horrors.
You need 744.(54) bolter hits to kill this many horrors.

Horrors are almost 7.5 times tougher than Magnus vs bolter hits.

Take note that this calculations take Pink horrors in the open and a non-flying Magnus with just 4++ re-rolling 1-s. So, for example, if Magnus is flying - he'll be harder to hit and if you're firing with regular marines w/o skyfire, he's becoming 4 times more durable than non-flying, resulting in him being only ~1.9 times less durable than Horrors. Also, if you buff him to 3++ re-rolling ones, he becomes 1/3 more resilient than with 4++ re-rolling 1-s ending up as, i think, 5.25 times more vulnerable to bolters than horrors - instead of 7.5. On the other hand, if horrors go t oground in a ruin, they become ~2.62 times more resilient than just standing in the open.

Another thing is that Horrors are like 50 times more resilient to poison and sniper and around 150 times more resilient to grav than Magnus. But i doubt anyone sane would shoot this weapons at horrors anywayz.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
It'd be interesting how much more they cost $ wise lol.

Yes, horrors are practically immune to bolter fire. we got that fact covered already. though, you assume you actually need to kill all horrors, and ignore the fact many would perish to random instability between shooting rounds.

Magnus however, will ALWAYS be airborne with a 3++rr1, because he can self-bless (in fact, he WILL self bless, siphon is priceless on him) so he's rather uncaring of bolter fire as well.


The way to kill horrors was also covered, assault them with anyhting that has a decent number of attacks. the instability would take it's toll, etc.

And, naturally, you can simply ignore them and go after whatever it is they are juicing up.

Horrors are literally immune to all ranged fire. Instability only works in melee. And a lot of things are shooty-oriented now. Also, Magnus is good in melee, i see no reason to not try and use it. sure, flying can always be an option - especially if you're facing d-weapons. Fly up - d them down - land and finish the job. He has an impressive melee profile that he pays for.

Whereas Horrors cannot effectively do damage like Magnus. Sure the Horrors could roll a decent Change power, but if you are bringing them as objective holding WC batteries, than A) they won't be close enough to use said power and B) even if they are close, you'll probably want to use their WC for your other Psykers.

A fair trade for sure, but hardly meta-breaking, especially since you'll have to get the models (which do not currently exist in a relevant capacity).

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