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I don't think they'd instantly pop in melee. Especially, taking into consideration that they still get to split even before instability.

If you don't want the opponent to get to your backlines, just roll your horrors forward. He than kills the squad in melee - if it's a strong melee unit they're facing, most of them will die and spawn up to twice their numbers of blue horrors. That would just go forward and bauble wrap the enemy unit next turn. Forcing either shots or next melee phase to clear them out. Which in turn would spawn another swarm of brimstones.

That's 3 phases (at best) to clear out a single unit.

If the enemy decides to shoot them, there's a possibility to create a roadblock to roadblock in front that'd make assault them even harder - depending on the number of casualties. If the opponent isn't careful enough, you could generate extra warp charges and psy powers with extra squads.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Pink Horror has one wound, with a 5+ save, at T3. Assuming BS4, that's 1.5 wounds with the save, 2.25 past the 3+ to wound, and 3.375 with BS4 hitting.

Each Blue and Brimstone Horror is mostly the same, except at T2/1, so they get wounded on a 2+. So that's 1.5 wounds with the save, 1.8 with the 2+ to wound, and 2.7 with BS4 hitting. Times 4, because there are two blue and two brimstone horrors.

So sorry-I did the math initially mentally. It's actually 14.175 Bolter shots to take them down.

A Necron Warrior (at 4 PPM more) is one wound, with a 4+ Reanimate for 2, 4+ save for 4, wounding on 4s for 8, and hitting on 3s for 12.

All you have shown is that horrors are hard to get rid of.
Being hard to get rid of does not brake a unit, being both hard to get rid of AND doing something meaningful does.

The warrior in your example, packs a "bolter" that can glance or wound anything on a 6, the horrors? do not. they generate a warp dice, and can hardly do anything meaningful with it themselves.

They are a battery charger for another unit. though to kill battery, but as long you can get rid of whatever it is they are powering up, the horrors turn rather less meaningful.

Flickering fire? Bolt of change? Summon Chariots? IDK...doesn't sound like they do nothing.

You don't need to do anything else to be considered good. Prime examples are zombies and conscripts.

And horrors do more than that.

 koooaei wrote:
I don't think they'd instantly pop in melee. Especially, taking into consideration that they still get to split even before instability.

Splits happen at the end of the phase, Instability happens prior to that. As the Split rule does not tell us to keep counters or keep track of how many Blues are "waiting" to be created (merely the number that may be created at the end of the phase), than the only logically solution it that if the Pinks are removed due to Instability, then at the end of the phase, no Blues are created.

For example:
10 Pinks get charged by some Assault Marines. The Marines kill 6 Horrors. The remaining horrors kill 1 Marine. Horrors lose combat by 5 and roll an 8 on their Instability.
The remaining 4 Horrors are removed BEFORE the end of the phase. No models are split at all.
Any Blues that might have been split from the 6 Pinks that were killed by the Marines are lost because there is no longer a Pink Horror to measure to as the entire unit was removed from Instability (the 1 exception to allowing them to be place before the last model is removed).

-

 Galef wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
I don't think they'd instantly pop in melee. Especially, taking into consideration that they still get to split even before instability.

Splits happen at the end of the phase, Instability happens prior to that. As the Split rule does not tell us to keep counters or keep track of how many Blues are "waiting" to be created (merely the number that may be created at the end of the phase), than the only logically solution it that if the Pinks are removed due to Instability, then at the end of the phase, no Blues are created.

For example:
10 Pinks get charged by some Assault Marines. The Marines kill 6 Horrors. The remaining horrors kill 1 Marine. Horrors lose combat by 5 and roll an 8 on their Instability.
The remaining 4 Horrors are removed BEFORE the end of the phase. No models are split at all.
Any Blues that might have been split from the 6 Pinks that were killed by the Marines are lost because there is no longer a Pink Horror to measure to as the entire unit was removed from Instability (the 1 exception to allowing them to be place before the last model is removed).

-

You're right in that the wording states that models Split at the end of the phase. That would put paid to the idea posted earlier of shooting the Pink with one unit, then the Blues with the next and so on and so forth.

What would actually happen is you wipe out the Pinks. Then you shoot all the rest of your guns. Then the monster blob of Blues materialises at the end of the shooting phase.

So, the only way to get rid of a unit of Horrors in a turn is to somehow Tank Shock them in the moving phase (not sure it's even possible to wipe out a unit form Tank Shock though), shoot the Blues in the shooting phase and then assault the Brimstones.

Edit: Doh! Forgot the psychic phase.

Eldritch Storm the Pinks, Scatbike the Blues and then chop up the Brimstones with Scorpions.

Another punch in the groin to the Dark Eldar. Not only do their basic guns not ID Brimstones, but they don't have a psychic phase so there's no way to eliminate a squad of Horrors in one turn!

Well there are several things happening here, and exceptions that need to be addressed. New Horrors are not made until the end of the phase, EXCPEPT when something wiped them out, then they are made immediately, EXCEPT when they are wiped by Instability

So any Blue Horrors that are "waiting" to be created from casualties in CC will miss their chance since the Pinks were not removed at once by a rule that allows them to be placed before removing the last Pink. They would not be able to be place after the casualties, since there are Pinks remaining, and since the remaining Pinks are then removed from Instability, we lose the ability to place them before removing the last Pink, as that rule only applies to non-Instability rules

-

 BoomWolf wrote:
Yes, horrors are practically immune to bolter fire. we got that fact covered already. though, you assume you actually need to kill all horrors, and ignore the fact many would perish to random instability between shooting rounds.

Magnus however, will ALWAYS be airborne with a 3++rr1, because he can self-bless (in fact, he WILL self bless, siphon is priceless on him) so he's rather uncaring of bolter fire as well.


The way to kill horrors was also covered, assault them with anyhting that has a decent number of attacks. the instability would take it's toll, etc.

And, naturally, you can simply ignore them and go after whatever it is they are juicing up.

You do realize you need to take a big ol' formation to get that 3++, right? You can't just slap Magnus in a CAD and call it a day.

You can't just slap Magnus in a CAD and call it a day, but you can make that CAD a Thousand Sons CAD and then call it day.
He comes with a 4++ and knows blessings, cast one of those on him and he has a 3++.

The formations improve his casting ability/toughness
The blessing is a bonus for being in any thousand sons detachment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As a daemon of tzeentch he rerolls saves of 1 inherently.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
The formations improve his casting ability/toughness
The blessing is a bonus for being in any thousand sons detachment.

Huh. Shows what I know for being away from Wrath of Magnus.

That's kinda dumb.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
The formations improve his casting ability/toughness

Which formation improves his toughness?

 mrhappyface wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
The formations improve his casting ability/toughness

Which formation improves his toughness?

I think he mean how tough he becomes to suffer a wound (i.e. an improved ++ save) rather than actually improving his T characteristic.
And no formation improves his casting ability, he does that himself. He improves the casting of DPs in one of the formations though

No the Sekhmet formation with 3-9 scarab occult terminators improves his toughness to 8 if within 2 other units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The detachment bonus let's him manifest 6 powers rather than 5

Captyn_Bob wrote:
No the Sekhmet formation with 3-9 scarab occult terminators improves his toughness to 8 if within 2 other units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The detachment bonus let's him manifest 6 powers rather than 5

Like I said no Formation* improves his T




*that anyone can or will take under 2000pts
-

Heyyy it fits in under 1500!
But no, it's terrible.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
The formations improve his casting ability/toughness
The blessing is a bonus for being in any thousand sons detachment.

Huh. Shows what I know for being away from Wrath of Magnus.

That's kinda dumb.

Magnus is indeed very dumb.

 Galef wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
No the Sekhmet formation with 3-9 scarab occult terminators improves his toughness to 8 if within 2 other units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The detachment bonus let's him manifest 6 powers rather than 5

Like I said no Formation* improves his T




*that anyone can or will take under 2000pts
-

You think he wouldn't? Just look at him he's crazy!

So no new blue or brimstone horrors are created if the host die from instability??

Anyways if you play against a player who brings mass Horrors, just ignore them, they are only good for obj holding and generate warp charges.

If a player decides to bring 6+ units of pinks and think they can be competitive in ITC or NOVA, they are wrong.

In ITC Mission 3, they will be at a huge disadvantage due to large amount of potential KPs the horrors will create. 6 units of Pinks is equivalent to at least 18 potential KPs for the opponent. And they are easy tertiary KPs in NOVA.

In Obj missions, if a player decides to deep strike a unit of pink some where to hold a OBJ, all you need to do is kill all the pinks, the blue and brimstone horrors are not Objsec. So a unit of obsec tactical marine can hold that objective indefinitely and just be lock in combat with them. And horrors can't hurt rhinos unless they want to waste WC to cast spells, BS3 doesn't help them either. In NOVA mission 4, units not part of the original detachment does not count towards scoring. So once you kill most of the original pink horrors, its kinda game over.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
So no new blue or brimstone horrors are created if the host die from instability??

Anyways if you play against a player who brings mass Horrors, just ignore them, they are only good for obj holding and generate warp charges.

If a player decides to bring 6+ units of pinks and think they can be competitive in ITC or NOVA, they are wrong.

In ITC Mission 3, they will be at a huge disadvantage due to large amount of potential KPs the horrors will create. 6 units of Pinks is equivalent to at least 18 potential KPs for the opponent. And they are easy tertiary KPs in NOVA.

In Obj missions, if a player decides to deep strike a unit of pink some where to hold a OBJ, all you need to do is kill all the pinks, the blue and brimstone horrors are not Objsec. So a unit of obsec tactical marine can hold that objective indefinitely and just be lock in combat with them. And horrors can't hurt rhinos unless they want to waste WC to cast spells, BS3 doesn't help them either. In NOVA mission 4, units not part of the original detachment does not count towards scoring. So once you kill most of the original pink horrors, its kinda game over.

I think you are in for a RUDE awakening.

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
So no new blue or brimstone horrors are created if the host die from instability??

I don't understand how people are reading it that way. It says if they are removed from play via instability they don't split not that previous killed horrors in that phase don't split.

 mrhappyface wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
So no new blue or brimstone horrors are created if the host die from instability??

I don't understand how people are reading it that way. It says if they are removed from play via instability they don't split not that previous killed horrors in that phase don't split.

The horrors killed earlier in the phase now aren't there to measure the 6" required to place new horrors

If the unit dissapears from instability, there is no longer a unit to place within6" of.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
So no new blue or brimstone horrors are created if the host die from instability??

Anyways if you play against a player who brings mass Horrors, just ignore them, they are only good for obj holding and generate warp charges.

If a player decides to bring 6+ units of pinks and think they can be competitive in ITC or NOVA, they are wrong.

In ITC Mission 3, they will be at a huge disadvantage due to large amount of potential KPs the horrors will create. 6 units of Pinks is equivalent to at least 18 potential KPs for the opponent. And they are easy tertiary KPs in NOVA.

In Obj missions, if a player decides to deep strike a unit of pink some where to hold a OBJ, all you need to do is kill all the pinks, the blue and brimstone horrors are not Objsec. So a unit of obsec tactical marine can hold that objective indefinitely and just be lock in combat with them. And horrors can't hurt rhinos unless they want to waste WC to cast spells, BS3 doesn't help them either. In NOVA mission 4, units not part of the original detachment does not count towards scoring. So once you kill most of the original pink horrors, its kinda game over.

I think you are in for a RUDE awakening.

Pink Horrors got better no doubt, but marked my words you will not see more than 3-4 units of them in any tournament winning Daemon list.

It also says place the blues immediately if the whole unit is removed.

Oof crownaxe so fast.

 mrhappyface wrote:
It also says place the blues immediately if the whole unit is removed.

Except when the unit dies to instability

 SonsofVulkan wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 SonsofVulkan wrote:
So no new blue or brimstone horrors are created if the host die from instability??

Anyways if you play against a player who brings mass Horrors, just ignore them, they are only good for obj holding and generate warp charges.

If a player decides to bring 6+ units of pinks and think they can be competitive in ITC or NOVA, they are wrong.

In ITC Mission 3, they will be at a huge disadvantage due to large amount of potential KPs the horrors will create. 6 units of Pinks is equivalent to at least 18 potential KPs for the opponent. And they are easy tertiary KPs in NOVA.

In Obj missions, if a player decides to deep strike a unit of pink some where to hold a OBJ, all you need to do is kill all the pinks, the blue and brimstone horrors are not Objsec. So a unit of obsec tactical marine can hold that objective indefinitely and just be lock in combat with them. And horrors can't hurt rhinos unless they want to waste WC to cast spells, BS3 doesn't help them either. In NOVA mission 4, units not part of the original detachment does not count towards scoring. So once you kill most of the original pink horrors, its kinda game over.

I think you are in for a RUDE awakening.

Pink Horrors got better no doubt, but marked my words you will not see more than 3-4 units of them in any tournament winning Daemon list.

Oh I agree with that - 3 or 4 is all you need. AS ether part of a warpflame host or a daemon CAD. Anything more would be a waste of points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
It also says place the blues immediately if the whole unit is removed.

Except when the unit dies to instability

Just out of curiosity - what happens if the unit roles double 6's on daemonic instability? or is it double 1's? I'm talking in daemonic incursion.

Double ones no horrors died so no split. As all casultys taken in that phase return.
double 6 they all die to instability so still no split, if im reading it right.

At least thats i see it.

One horrible thing i thought of and not 100% sure its legal.

A fair few Tzeetch powers are beams . Unless i'm missing something can you not pick a point i dunno though your own unit of horrors (or strategic parts of the unit) for complete shenigans... creating new units for next turn WC, footprint, general tomfoolery. Heck even do this on a unit you just summoned.

You can do it if you really need to. One of the best thing about split though is that it happens at the end of the phase so your opponant can't kill the unit they just created, we lose that if we cause the split.

Saying that there are situation where you might want to do this: your opponant is agnoring your horrors, you need to throw a unit on an object that is 6-9" away, you need to block a route, etc.