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Units with this special rule may opt to give up over watch to counter charge. If the unit Charing fails the charge a unit with counter charge can charge an additional d6 inches. Both units now in combat count as charging.

BloodPigeons89B wrote:
Units with this special rule may opt to give up over watch to counter charge. If the unit Charing fails the charge a unit with counter charge can charge an additional d6 inches. Both units now in combat count as charging.

What does this do that counter-attack doesn't? Other than remove your ability to overwatch at the expense of some movement. Plus it gives the enemy counter-attack for failing a charge.
I like the idea, but not sure it fits within 40k effectively.

Counter attack only give the unit an additional attack, it does nothing else. Rather the idea behind this confers any charge bonus a unit has, furious charge, rage, any on the charge reroll etc. Also there are a good number of units that want to be charging but don't want to get charged. There are also close combat only units, why should they sit there with no ranged weapons while the enemy attempts to charge and fails. The idea of assault terminators sitting there while anything tries to attack them rather than charging back

I had a related idea: when a unit is charged, it may declare one of four actions:

Overwatch: exactly what it is now.

Retreat: immediately move d3+3" in any direction. Units with the Fleet or Crusader special rules move +1, Jump Infantry, Beasts, Cavalry, (Jet)bikes and Chariots move +2. If the charging unit still makes it to close combat, the Retreating unit must test as if they were Falling Back. If not locked in combat, a unit that Retreats may not declare any charges in its next Assault Phase. Any shooting attacks made in their next Psychic or Shooting phase are made at -1 BS.

Brace: A unit that declares their intention to Brace cannot also fire Overwatch, but counts as charging for the first turn of the ensuing combat. A unit with Counter-Attack still gains +1A for having Counter-Attack, in addition to counting as charging.

Surrender: A unit that chooses to Surrender is immediately destroyed if the charging unit makes it to base contact. The attacking unit then immediately Consolidates as usual. Super-Heavy Walkers and Gargantuan Creatures may not Stomp if the unit they charged Surrenders.

Brace is much too good. Imagine wulfen with 6 attacks when charged.

Hmmm, good point.

Maybe require a Leadership test (at -2 if the charging unit has Fear, not negated by Fearless/ATSKNF) to activate it, and if failed, you get no bonus?

That still activates more than 70% of the time for Space Marines.

No, I'd remove it entirely.

Edit: Retreat and Surrender are good, though.

I think retreat is a neat idea, though it probably shouldn't (but probably would) be mitigated with ATSKNF. And it should probably be snap fire next turn, not -1 BS, just like any falling back unit. I would probably tack an initiative test on it too.

There are absolutely some times that running away and giving up a turn is better than plinking away with your small arms.

Brace is stupid good - there's a reason counterattack isn't as good as charging, as giving you all the benefits of a charge in your opponent's turn isn't very fair. Counterattack is fine as is.

Surrender - It's a little silly to think a general would be able to command troops to murder themselves in order for your ranged units to have a clear shot on your opponent next turn, and is a little broken to boot.

Besides, if you're in a situation where you'd want to surrender, the unit you'd consider surrendering with is likely to either be wiped out in combat anyways, or lose combat by so much that they'll try to retreat.

Like with brace, the current mechanics of the game do a similar job right now, and more fairly in my opinion.

So my initial idea behind this is my blood angels death company have 5 attacks on the charge at str 5 init 5. Certain formations can up the attacks. I usually throw a power Lance in there because why not which is str +1 ap 3 on the charge str user ap 4 in combat. If these guys get charged it's 3 attacks at a normal marine profile. These and other units like assault terminators, wolfen, berserkers. Shouldn't loose almost all there combat prowess because they get charged, there's no reason they will sit there while anything else charges at them.

BloodPigeons89B wrote:
So my initial idea behind this is my blood angels death company have 5 attacks on the charge at str 5 init 5. Certain formations can up the attacks. I usually throw a power Lance in there because why not which is str +1 ap 3 on the charge str user ap 4 in combat. If these guys get charged it's 3 attacks at a normal marine profile. These and other units like assault terminators, wolfen, berserkers. Shouldn't loose almost all there combat prowess because they get charged, there's no reason they will sit there while anything else charges at them.

So basically, you want to remove any penalties for fething up and getting charged?

I do not support this mechanically.

Fluffwise, it makes sense-the charger has a lot of momentum behind them, they might have the drop on the chargee, and in general they've got a good rush going.

Now, one thing I might be okay with is the following:

Counter Charge
A unit with this special rule my forgo Overwatch to instead brace themselves for combat when charged. Against the unit selected, the unit with Counter Charge gains one extra attack for the first round of combat. This ability cannot be used if the unit with the rule is already locked in close combat.

Edit: In case it's not clear, my Counter Charge recommendation is a USR and not a core gameplay change.

This is a massive downgrade over watching the other guy fail his charge and waiting a turn so you get an entire extra Shooting phase first. There is very close to no army (except a few hypothetical Daemon builds) that would actually want to do this.

 AnomanderRake wrote:
This is a massive downgrade over watching the other guy fail his charge and waiting a turn so you get an entire extra Shooting phase first. There is very close to no army (except a few hypothetical Daemon builds) that would actually want to do this.

My thing? Or the OP's thing?

Edit: Although I do think this rule should only go to people who actually have guns. No giving it to people who can't Overwatch at all.

And it should not be a universal rule.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
This is a massive downgrade over watching the other guy fail his charge and waiting a turn so you get an entire extra Shooting phase first. There is very close to no army (except a few hypothetical Daemon builds) that would actually want to do this.

My thing? Or the OP's thing?

Edit: Although I do think this rule should only go to people who actually have guns. No giving it to people who can't Overwatch at all.

And it should not be a universal rule.

The OPs thing. Your thing is just "Let's give the Counter-Attack special rule to everyone!".

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
This is a massive downgrade over watching the other guy fail his charge and waiting a turn so you get an entire extra Shooting phase first. There is very close to no army (except a few hypothetical Daemon builds) that would actually want to do this.

My thing? Or the OP's thing?

Edit: Although I do think this rule should only go to people who actually have guns. No giving it to people who can't Overwatch at all.

And it should not be a universal rule.

The OPs thing. Your thing is just "Let's give the Counter-Attack special rule to everyone!".

Perhaps I was not clear-Counter Charge is a USR. It is not a new game mechanic.

So it's a weaker version of Counter-Attack. Only applies to one squad (so I can charge in, say, a squad of Nurglings that's 1" away and force you to waste Counter Charge on them, then charge in a Daemon Prince) and requires you to give up Overwatch.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
This is a massive downgrade over watching the other guy fail his charge and waiting a turn so you get an entire extra Shooting phase first. There is very close to no army (except a few hypothetical Daemon builds) that would actually want to do this.

My thing? Or the OP's thing?

Edit: Although I do think this rule should only go to people who actually have guns. No giving it to people who can't Overwatch at all.

And it should not be a universal rule.

The OPs thing. Your thing is just "Let's give the Counter-Attack special rule to everyone!".

Perhaps I was not clear-Counter Charge is a USR. It is not a new game mechanic.

So it's a weaker version of Counter-Attack. Only applies to one squad (so I can charge in, say, a squad of Nurglings that's 1" away and force you to waste Counter Charge on them, then charge in a Daemon Prince) and requires you to give up Overwatch.

You were very clear. You've added an extra mildly-special-cased Counter-Attack keyword that's completely and totally unnecessary as a distinct keyword from Counter-Attack.

Two different USRs that do slightly different versions of the exact same thing are where we end up with rules bloat, people.

I'd agree it's unneeded-but I think it's a more balanced version of what the OP wants, and, because it's weaker than Counter-Attack, it could be given to more units without raising points by too much.

And your statement that I was giving Counter-Attack to everyone threw me off, since I wasn't proposing giving this to everyone.

 JNAProductions wrote:
I'd agree it's unneeded-but I think it's a more balanced version of what the OP wants, and, because it's weaker than Counter-Attack, it could be given to more units without raising points by too much.

And your statement that I was giving Counter-Attack to everyone threw me off, since I wasn't proposing giving this to everyone.

This whole discussion is silly. If your game system is granular enough that "no counter-attack, overwatch permitted", "no counter-attack, overwatch not permitted", "counter-attack, overwatch permitted", "choose between counter-attack and overwatch", "counter-attack, overwatch not permitted", and "overwatch permitted, choose between overwatch at BS2 and gaining counter-attack" all actually need to be distinct rules you need to step back, set fire to the whole thing, and start over because rules bloat has clearly gotten out of control.

(For reference all of these except 'choose between counter-attack and overwatch' are real game states that real units in 40k have)

The lesson so, so many people on Proposed Rules haven't gotten through their heads is that not everything needs a rule. Fluff arguments about subtle distinctions between two different units that you want to have counter-attack are all well and good but making a pile of nested sub-versions of the rule is just going to make things more of a mess.

So here's a revised version of the proposed rule. When a unit is declared as the target of a charge and not already locked it combat the unit may choose to overwatch as normal or forgo overwatch. Then the attacking unit rolls charge like normal, if the unit makes it into combat continue as normal. If the charging unit fails the charge the unit being charge rolls 1D6. If the total result rolled would bring the unit into combat they move the distanced rolled and pile in close combat as normal, if this happens both units count as charging for the purpose of bonuses. Counter attack does not grant an additional attack in this instance, crusader and fleet allow you to reroll the 1D6 charge. If the total.distance rolled is not enough to bring the units into combat the unit that was the target of the charge cannot over watch or counter charge in that same turn. Thoughts?

BloodPigeons89B wrote:
So here's a revised version of the proposed rule. When a unit is declared as the target of a charge and not already locked it combat the unit may choose to overwatch as normal or forgo overwatch. Then the attacking unit rolls charge like normal, if the unit makes it into combat continue as normal. If the charging unit fails the charge the unit being charge rolls 1D6. If the total result rolled would bring the unit into combat they move the distanced rolled and pile in close combat as normal, if this happens both units count as charging for the purpose of bonuses. Counter attack does not grant an additional attack in this instance, crusader and fleet allow you to reroll the 1D6 charge. If the total.distance rolled is not enough to bring the units into combat the unit that was the target of the charge cannot over watch or counter charge in that same turn. Thoughts?

It feels a little bit long and complicated, but it would probably be fine. As an alternative, why not simply allow all units in the game to forego overwatch and instead gain counter attack for the duration of that assault phase? No extra d6 rolling. No extra movement to bring the two units together. You just get to punch back hard against the guys trying to punch you (unless you're currently too busy with an assault or too slow and purposeful to properly respond to the charge).




Automatically Appended Next Post:

jade_angel wrote:
I had a related idea: when a unit is charged, it may declare one of four actions:

Overwatch: exactly what it is now.

Retreat: immediately move d3+3" in any direction. Units with the Fleet or Crusader special rules move +1, Jump Infantry, Beasts, Cavalry, (Jet)bikes and Chariots move +2. If the charging unit still makes it to close combat, the Retreating unit must test as if they were Falling Back. If not locked in combat, a unit that Retreats may not declare any charges in its next Assault Phase. Any shooting attacks made in their next Psychic or Shooting phase are made at -1 BS.

Brace: A unit that declares their intention to Brace cannot also fire Overwatch, but counts as charging for the first turn of the ensuing combat. A unit with Counter-Attack still gains +1A for having Counter-Attack, in addition to counting as charging.

Surrender: A unit that chooses to Surrender is immediately destroyed if the charging unit makes it to base contact. The attacking unit then immediately Consolidates as usual. Super-Heavy Walkers and Gargantuan Creatures may not Stomp if the unit they charged Surrenders.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Brace is much too good. Imagine wulfen with 6 attacks when charged.

Counterpoint: JNA: Wulfen hit hard regardless of whether or not they get the charge off. They're a unit you usually want to shoot to death rather than charge (or get charged by). If you were going to lose a combat against them anyway, Brace at least lets you hit back a little harder when they charge you

@JadeAngel: I really like these! For the sake of speeding up the game and cutting down on extra movement, what about abstracting Retreat as simply being a penalty on the opponent's charge? So before they charge, you can impose a d3+3" penalty to their charge. Possibly have it only work against a single charging unit per phase (the other enemy units are moving to cut you off!)

BloodPigeons89B wrote:

It feels a little bit long and complicated, but it would probably be fine. As an alternative, why not simply allow all units in the game to forego overwatch and instead gain counter attack for the duration of that assault phase? No extra d6 rolling. No extra movement to bring the two units together. You just get to punch back hard against the guys trying to punch you (unless you're currently too busy with an assault or too slow and purposeful to properly respond to the charge).

What if this was only relegated to jump infantry or cavalry?

Personally I think counter attack is good for what it does but it has a very low ceiling on what a unit would be capable of doing. Just because some firewarriors charge you, your unit has reduced attacks and can't gain your combat specific benefits?

The assault is very weak right now compared to shooting and if played right a throw away unit can lock up a close combat monster until combat ends and the unit can be shot at again.

This would make the throw away or bog down tactic less viable putting some power back in the assault and keep these units that should be slashing across the table doing what they are meant to.

This has the makings of a great idea. The unit being charged forgoes the option to over watch then both units charge towards each other.

The distance the unit that has had an assault declared against it would however need to be determined. It wouldn't be right that the charging unit only rolls, say a two and the unit being charged against rolls a 12.

Maybe if the unit that forgoes over watch is forced to make up the distance. But both gain their special rules for charging but the unit being charged doesn't get it's plus 1 attack but does get any other bonuses such as rage.