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And if so, how strong are they in relation to a space marine chaos lord?

There's no reason they can't, as far as I know; once you're on that level, who's going to be stronger really comes down to a case-by-case basis. Maybe he's just a particularly successful pirate lord dedicated to Tzeentch who excels at logistics and slipping through the Warp to strike at unexpected and undefended colonies, but most traitor Astartes chaos lords would be able to pick him up and choke him out Darth Vader-style without much of a physical fight; maybe he's carrying a power axe with a Bloodthirster stuck inside it that has roughly the same effect as getting hit with Sauron's mace, and he's all 'roided out on gifts from the Gods.

It really depends on how the Chaos powers were feeling when the person in question attracted their attention. What you were before doesn't matter as much as what they turn you into.

 Spinner wrote:
There's no reason they can't, as far as I know; once you're on that level, who's going to be stronger really comes down to a case-by-case basis. Maybe he's just a particularly successful pirate lord dedicated to Tzeentch who excels at logistics and slipping through the Warp to strike at unexpected and undefended colonies, but most traitor Astartes chaos lords would be able to pick him up and choke him out Darth Vader-style without much of a physical fight; maybe he's carrying a power axe with a Bloodthirster stuck inside it that has roughly the same effect as getting hit with Sauron's mace, and he's all 'roided out on gifts from the Gods.

It really depends on how the Chaos powers were feeling when the person in question attracted their attention. What you were before doesn't matter as much as what they turn you into.

Yeah pretty much this. As long as he could stay alive and kill his enemies he could be a lord. It's just an space marine could kill him with just about anything the marine wanted to very easily

Agreed with the above, and I'm of the opinion that after a given amount of 'favour' from the Chaos Gods their physical capabilities would be indistinguishable too.

As Spinner put it, if you're successful enough to get 'roided out on gifts, the sky's the limit. Even if you began as a S/T3 squishy human...

Tamba in False Gods is a prime example, he gave Horus a run for his money in a fight.

 JamesY wrote:
Tamba in False Gods is a prime example, he gave Horus a run for his money in a fight.

True, he wasn't exactly a chaos lord though was he? More of a renegade. I suppose it depends on what you define a chaos lord as. It was implied that it was the anathema that was doing the majority of the work I believe but your point still stands. I'm wondering if there are any examples of a normal human who has been empowered by the chaos gods to the point that he hits like a normal chaos lord. Less of him being either possessed or controlled by a weapon but he himself being that strong

I think that chaos would give the power they think necessary for the individual to do what they needed done. Whether or not they get to maintain that power, or end up as spawn, is probably irrelevant to them afterwards.

JamesY you raise a good point; I imagine a chaos space marine's physique is more resilient/accepting to mutations, which probably facilitates the road to becoming a chaos lord and not a spawn.

Also, a chaos marine would not need to acquire as much power (probably already being a fearsome warrior, having access to formidable allies and maybe a small fleet on account of being a traitor/renegade marine).

So an unaugmented human has a much bigger hill to climb, but surely that spectacle is it's own merit for any observing chaos gods?

nareik wrote:
JamesY you raise a good point; I imagine a chaos space marine's physique is more resilient/accepting to mutations, which probably facilitates the road to becoming a chaos lord and not a spawn.

Also, a chaos marine would not need to acquire as much power (probably already being a fearsome warrior, having access to formidable allies and maybe a small fleet on account of being a traitor/renegade marine).

So an unaugmented human has a much bigger hill to climb, but surely that spectacle is it's own merit for any observing chaos gods?

You say that but some imperial commanders control far larger armies than those of the space marines, leading to a potential for far more being accomplished under their command. Imperial guard are the hammer where marines are the scalpel. I feel like an imperial commander successfully leading a large invasion into the warp only to turn traitor and retain the majority of his force could end up amassing a lot of power

BaconUprising wrote:

nareik wrote:
JamesY you raise a good point; I imagine a chaos space marine's physique is more resilient/accepting to mutations, which probably facilitates the road to becoming a chaos lord and not a spawn.

Also, a chaos marine would not need to acquire as much power (probably already being a fearsome warrior, having access to formidable allies and maybe a small fleet on account of being a traitor/renegade marine).

So an unaugmented human has a much bigger hill to climb, but surely that spectacle is it's own merit for any observing chaos gods?

You say that but some imperial commanders control far larger armies than those of the space marines, leading to a potential for far more being accomplished under their command. Imperial guard are the hammer where marines are the scalpel. I feel like an imperial commander successfully leading a large invasion into the warp only to turn traitor and retain the majority of his force could end up amassing a lot of power

Sure. If your lucky, smart and a utterly dedicated chaos worshipper.

Be very rare but a lord by turn of event could one day long ago been a humble cultest.
A mortal of such luck, and talent. May draw the gods gaze. And there future.

There future may go good or bad, but they may one day end up a lord by own hand. And there patron may take glee in a former human who rose up, showing power is there for those greddy and ruthlessness ernough to claim it.

 jhe90 wrote:

BaconUprising wrote:

nareik wrote:
JamesY you raise a good point; I imagine a chaos space marine's physique is more resilient/accepting to mutations, which probably facilitates the road to becoming a chaos lord and not a spawn.

Also, a chaos marine would not need to acquire as much power (probably already being a fearsome warrior, having access to formidable allies and maybe a small fleet on account of being a traitor/renegade marine).

So an unaugmented human has a much bigger hill to climb, but surely that spectacle is it's own merit for any observing chaos gods?

You say that but some imperial commanders control far larger armies than those of the space marines, leading to a potential for far more being accomplished under their command. Imperial guard are the hammer where marines are the scalpel. I feel like an imperial commander successfully leading a large invasion into the warp only to turn traitor and retain the majority of his force could end up amassing a lot of power

Sure. If your lucky, smart and a utterly dedicated chaos worshipper.

Be very rare but a lord by turn of event could one day long ago been a humble cultest.
A mortal of such luck, and talent. May draw the gods gaze. And there future.

There future may go good or bad, but they may one day end up a lord by own hand. And there patron may take glee in a former human who rose up, showing power is there for those greddy and ruthlessness ernough to claim it.

That's the draw of Chaos isn't it?

In the Imperium, you're born a factory worker, you live as a factory worker, you die as a factory worker, you get turned into a servo-skull which just so happens to work in a factory...

However, in the worship of the Gods, through strength, intelligence, guile, charisma and luck, you can rise to the top and achieve immortality.

Chaos is a meritocracy. Technically, it's a more civilised society than the Imperium!

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

BaconUprising wrote:

nareik wrote:
JamesY you raise a good point; I imagine a chaos space marine's physique is more resilient/accepting to mutations, which probably facilitates the road to becoming a chaos lord and not a spawn.

Also, a chaos marine would not need to acquire as much power (probably already being a fearsome warrior, having access to formidable allies and maybe a small fleet on account of being a traitor/renegade marine).

So an unaugmented human has a much bigger hill to climb, but surely that spectacle is it's own merit for any observing chaos gods?

You say that but some imperial commanders control far larger armies than those of the space marines, leading to a potential for far more being accomplished under their command. Imperial guard are the hammer where marines are the scalpel. I feel like an imperial commander successfully leading a large invasion into the warp only to turn traitor and retain the majority of his force could end up amassing a lot of power

Sure. If your lucky, smart and a utterly dedicated chaos worshipper.

Be very rare but a lord by turn of event could one day long ago been a humble cultest.
A mortal of such luck, and talent. May draw the gods gaze. And there future.

There future may go good or bad, but they may one day end up a lord by own hand. And there patron may take glee in a former human who rose up, showing power is there for those greddy and ruthlessness ernough to claim it.

That's the draw of Chaos isn't it?

In the Imperium, you're born a factory worker, you live as a factory worker, you die as a factory worker, you get turned into a servo-skull which just so happens to work in a factory...

However, in the worship of the Gods, through strength, intelligence, guile, charisma and luck, you can rise to the top and achieve immortality.

Chaos is a meritocracy. Technically, it's a more civilised society than the Imperium!

I wouldn't say it's civilised, but it's more free. Imperium is ultra capitalist/nationalist whereas chaos is more for freedom/anarchy

 TheLumberJack wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 jhe90 wrote:

BaconUprising wrote:

nareik wrote:
JamesY you raise a good point; I imagine a chaos space marine's physique is more resilient/accepting to mutations, which probably facilitates the road to becoming a chaos lord and not a spawn.

Also, a chaos marine would not need to acquire as much power (probably already being a fearsome warrior, having access to formidable allies and maybe a small fleet on account of being a traitor/renegade marine).

So an unaugmented human has a much bigger hill to climb, but surely that spectacle is it's own merit for any observing chaos gods?

You say that but some imperial commanders control far larger armies than those of the space marines, leading to a potential for far more being accomplished under their command. Imperial guard are the hammer where marines are the scalpel. I feel like an imperial commander successfully leading a large invasion into the warp only to turn traitor and retain the majority of his force could end up amassing a lot of power

Sure. If your lucky, smart and a utterly dedicated chaos worshipper.

Be very rare but a lord by turn of event could one day long ago been a humble cultest.
A mortal of such luck, and talent. May draw the gods gaze. And there future.

There future may go good or bad, but they may one day end up a lord by own hand. And there patron may take glee in a former human who rose up, showing power is there for those greddy and ruthlessness ernough to claim it.

That's the draw of Chaos isn't it?

In the Imperium, you're born a factory worker, you live as a factory worker, you die as a factory worker, you get turned into a servo-skull which just so happens to work in a factory...

However, in the worship of the Gods, through strength, intelligence, guile, charisma and luck, you can rise to the top and achieve immortality.

Chaos is a meritocracy. Technically, it's a more civilised society than the Imperium!

I wouldn't say it's civilised, but it's more free. Imperium is ultra capitalist/nationalist whereas chaos is more for freedom/anarchy

However one with the strength, drive, skill and sheer force of will.
A humble cultest despite the massive odds may become a imortal deamon prince.

Chaos . The powers there to claim, it just takes the right leader. In the right place. At the right time.

And the wold is yours.

Odds are minimal. But for every billion men who die nothing more than there station, one may stand out, one may forge there own path to victory, to power and burn the very stars a head a mighty war band.

 JamesY wrote:
Tamba in False Gods is a prime example, he gave Horus a run for his money in a fight.

Temba was not only wielding the most potent Primarch-killing weapon in the galaxy, he was also possessed - the way the book described him made him sound more like something akin to Daemon Prince than anything else!

 TheLumberJack wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:


Chaos is a meritocracy. Technically, it's a more civilised society than the Imperium!

I wouldn't say it's civilised, but it's more free. Imperium is ultra capitalist/nationalist whereas chaos is more for freedom/anarchy

Hah only in 40k are the libertarian freedom-lovers the 'bad' guys, and the Stalinists (allied with the Borg) are the 'good' guys

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 TheLumberJack wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:


Chaos is a meritocracy. Technically, it's a more civilised society than the Imperium!

I wouldn't say it's civilised, but it's more free. Imperium is ultra capitalist/nationalist whereas chaos is more for freedom/anarchy

Hah only in 40k are the libertarian freedom-lovers the 'bad' guys, and the Stalinists (allied with the Borg) are the 'good' guys

Well I mean the libertarian freedom lovers are less everyone does what they want, and more they guy with the biggest stick does whatever he wants to anyone

 TheLumberJack wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 TheLumberJack wrote:

 Ynneadwraith wrote:


Chaos is a meritocracy. Technically, it's a more civilised society than the Imperium!

I wouldn't say it's civilised, but it's more free. Imperium is ultra capitalist/nationalist whereas chaos is more for freedom/anarchy

Hah only in 40k are the libertarian freedom-lovers the 'bad' guys, and the Stalinists (allied with the Borg) are the 'good' guys

Well I mean the libertarian freedom lovers are less everyone does what they want, and more they guy with the biggest stick does whatever he wants to anyone

I suppose I should have called them 'meritocratic freedom-lovers'.

Less about personal liberty for all, more about rewarding those that succeed...with mutations!

 Ashiraya wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
Tamba in False Gods is a prime example, he gave Horus a run for his money in a fight.

Temba was not only wielding the most potent Primarch-killing weapon in the galaxy, he was also possessed - the way the book described him made him sound more like something akin to Daemon Prince than anything else!

Yeah I'd agree with that. Right up until he got killed, but the lack of immortality aside, he was up there on the power scale.

Quixos the arch-heretic is a good example.

He was a normal human, former Inquisitor turned heretic, he was leading a heretic chaotic organization of thousands of loyal followers and soldiers and could take on the Imperial Guard by himself. He also obtained and developed supernatural powers and could move at an inhuman speed. Given how he dispatched some of the most famous inquisitors of the era in mere seconds I'd imagine he'd be able to kill Astartes too.

IIRC in the book Daemon World, said daemon world was led by a Mortal Queen/Princess of Chaos.

 JamesY wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 JamesY wrote:
Tamba in False Gods is a prime example, he gave Horus a run for his money in a fight.

Temba was not only wielding the most potent Primarch-killing weapon in the galaxy, he was also possessed - the way the book described him made him sound more like something akin to Daemon Prince than anything else!

Yeah I'd agree with that. Right up until he got killed, but the lack of immortality aside, he was up there on the power scale.

lso sheer fact a mortal has a weapon that can kill primarchs...

Thatd a pretty potent chaos artifact.

BaconUprising wrote:
And if so, how strong are they in relation to a space marine chaos lord?

Of course they can become a chaos lord. All you need to do to become a chaos lord is devote yourself to chaos and lord over other men.

mortal Chaoslords are probably similar in relation to CSM Lords as Guard officers are to Chapter Masters. But with chaos you can have boons from the gods elevating their power.

Theoretically a powerful enough human Chaos lord can ascend to daemon prince status, and then would be more powerful than most CSM lords.



It's going to be very unlikely that a band of CSM is going to be led by a non SM human though. Space marines are proud and all have leadership talent engineered into them. To follow a mere human would be kind of embarrassing. It might happen if the human was an extremely powerful psyker.

I just re-read my copy of Emperor's Mercy, it has a very interesting depiction of a 4000 year old arch-heretic called Khorsabad Maw. Zhou describes him as a very small man only distinguishable as a chaos lord due to the trophy racks on his back and shoulders and mantle of silks and furs he wears. He does appear favoured as he has natural body armour and his head appears to be a steel deathmask with no eye, nose or mouth holes. Despite his minute size (I think he's described as 1.5m tall with hands like that of a porcelain doll), he is brutally strong, he leaps into the air like an artillery shell. When he walks across the surface of a battle tank it's armour dents and the inquisitor facing him notes he must way over half a tonne. He also throws a fully manned, active battle tank into the air, tears a hole in its rear armour plating and moves faster than even a space marine. He kills a whole squad of elite lancers with his bare hands, killing them with what is described as a "light tap to the neck". He is however killed by an elite inquisitorial huntsman although this does seem entirely like plot armour. When he speaks his voice is projected into the heads of those around him, I don't think he is a psyker though, the Inquisitor notes when he locks eyes with him that he felt the full might of the ruinous powers staring back at him

 Exergy wrote:

BaconUprising wrote:
And if so, how strong are they in relation to a space marine chaos lord?

Of course they can become a chaos lord. All you need to do to become a chaos lord is devote yourself to chaos and lord over other men.

mortal Chaoslords are probably similar in relation to CSM Lords as Guard officers are to Chapter Masters. But with chaos you can have boons from the gods elevating their power.

Theoretically a powerful enough human Chaos lord can ascend to daemon prince status, and then would be more powerful than most CSM lords.



It's going to be very unlikely that a band of CSM is going to be led by a non SM human though. Space marines are proud and all have leadership talent engineered into them. To follow a mere human would be kind of embarrassing. It might happen if the human was an extremely powerful psyker.

Yeah I'd say it'd be unlikely for a normal human to lead a CSM warband.

Not without them being unbelievably arrogant (Slaanesh), really really clever (Tzeentch), a mad scientist (Nurgle) or just dead choppy (Khorne).

With enough boons from the gods I'd think a human could do it though all it takes is hard work and a lot of luck

He also commands over 7 million renegade troops and a company of Chaos marines.

 Ynneadwraith wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

BaconUprising wrote:
And if so, how strong are they in relation to a space marine chaos lord?

Of course they can become a chaos lord. All you need to do to become a chaos lord is devote yourself to chaos and lord over other men.

mortal Chaoslords are probably similar in relation to CSM Lords as Guard officers are to Chapter Masters. But with chaos you can have boons from the gods elevating their power.

Theoretically a powerful enough human Chaos lord can ascend to daemon prince status, and then would be more powerful than most CSM lords.



It's going to be very unlikely that a band of CSM is going to be led by a non SM human though. Space marines are proud and all have leadership talent engineered into them. To follow a mere human would be kind of embarrassing. It might happen if the human was an extremely powerful psyker.

Yeah I'd say it'd be unlikely for a normal human to lead a CSM warband.

Not without them being unbelievably arrogant (Slaanesh), really really clever (Tzeentch), a mad scientist (Nurgle) or just dead choppy (Khorne).

With enough boons from the gods I'd think a human could do it though all it takes is hard work and a lot of luck

This is it. Depending on the deeds that the mortal did he could really be a big deal. A guy like the one BaconUprising mentions sounds like someone who could lord over Astartes, if he had proven himself.

Perhaps a Warband hears of the mortal lord with a rather large force and looks to beat him in combat and acquire what the Lord has. The Mortal Lord welcomes the would be usurper and challenges him to a duel. Being rather a favourite of his patron power he smashes the Astartes in the fight and the warband, being a bit surprised that the Mortal crumped their lord, are impressed and swear allegiance to him and let their ex lord bleed to death.

Doombreed is supposed to have been mortal, having been around in M1/M2. Uraka Az'baramael sounds like Ghengis Khan to me If a Mortal can become a Daemon Prince I would imagine he can become a Lord

I think it's pretty wrong to think there would be a fight most of the time. It's pretty common in the literature for chaos marines to just pledge their loyalty to a mortal Lord.

I mean, is not like the Lord is the head of a marine warband. It's like the Lord has difference of mortal and daemon legions, factories, mines, and sorcerers, and one of the groups under that umbrella just happens to be 180 space marines.

This thing about killing the Lord didn't really work. If the marines kill the Lord, it's not like they automatically control all the Lord's armies and possessions. They portably just ruined a little empire and it will break up into individual planets and factions. Also, I'm not really sure what they would want with command of some hordes of mortals. Marines usually want to fight battles and win them, or they want some kind of personal indulgence like sensation or arcane knowledge.

Usually they want to take care of being space marines, not having to pay per games with a bunch of jerks.

pelicaniforce wrote:
I think it's pretty wrong to think there would be a fight most of the time. It's pretty common in the literature for chaos marines to just pledge their loyalty to a mortal Lord.

I mean, is not like the Lord is the head of a marine warband. It's like the Lord has difference of mortal and daemon legions, factories, mines, and sorcerers, and one of the groups under that umbrella just happens to be 180 space marines.

This thing about killing the Lord didn't really work. If the marines kill the Lord, it's not like they automatically control all the Lord's armies and possessions. They portably just ruined a little empire and it will break up into individual planets and factions. Also, I'm not really sure what they would want with command of some hordes of mortals. Marines usually want to fight battles and win them, or they want some kind of personal indulgence like sensation or arcane knowledge.

Usually they want to take care of being space marines, not having to pay per games with a bunch of jerks.

It was just an off the cuff idea. I don't see why it couldn't happen like that if the mortal lord had some big reputation. It wouldn't have to happen all the time, once would be enough and then maybe other Astartes searched him out to join his ever increasing warband

Even if the Lord had Space Ships and lots of big shiny tanks and stuff?

In the Skull Harvest held by Huron Blackheart champions duke it out and the winners take the other warbands troops and resources. Not all of those are Astartes. Honsou wins and forms the Bloodborn which has Loxatyl, Kroot, Pirates.

BaconUprising wrote:
And if so, how strong are they in relation to a space marine chaos lord?

Yes its possible.

A normal human turned chaos warlord was the main antagonist in the novel hammer of daemons.