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Ok, maybe I am overthinking. Or maybe I am just too stupid.
Either way, at first I tought Chaos Gods were your standard, "Evil ancient gods" trope (like Loki or Seth or Hades) or some very powerful demon in the classic sense.
However, as I delved into the fluff, my head started aching.
So...they are born from the Warp, each one at distant times, FROM HUMAN'S (or Xenos') FEELINGS AND EMOTIONS. And, depending on the galacric mood, they can be either good or bad (and as we are in the grim darkness of the far future, they're pretty nasty.)
So, basically...they're YIN-YANG (sorta) AVATARS of FEELINGS who have gained CONSCIOUSNESS and seek to destroy their OWN CREATORS despite literally NEEDING THEM...?
Also, are they gods in the literal sense? Because they don't really "fit" they criteria of a deity, since a god is born before time (and, correct me if I'm wrong, I remember they were born between the Age of Strife and Dark Age, including Slaanesh and...well, the greatest Eldar rave party), is omnipotent and omniscent (and judging by their numerous failures and insane use of logic, they're clearly not) and are supposedly involved someway in the shaping of the universe (whereas that's the other way around, with them being literally man/Xenos made).
Also, does this mean the Warp is sentient or something? Are the Chaos gods just some deluded, emotion-sucking, Lovercraftain abomination instead of gods? (Most Important, do Gork and Mork qualify aswell? )
Really, where my understanding of wikias, manuals and the mighty Lexicanum has failed, a delucidation would be most appreciated.
"We're on an express elevator to hell - goin' down!"
"Depends on the service being refused. It should be fine to refuse to make a porn star a dildo shaped cake that they wanted to use in a wedding themed porn..."
Yeah they're basically the echoes of the emotions of billions upon billions of sentient beings both living and dead, coalesced to the point that they have achieved sentience.
It's a terrifying concept given the nature of life in 40k.
Also, it's only Slaanesh that we know for certain was 'born' during the Age of Strife. The others were likely around before that. Given that it was the War in Heaven that turned the warp into the hellhole we know today, i'd say that their 'birth' would be sometime around then.
Edit:
Re-reading your OP, you probably need to define what you mean by 'god'. Strictly speaking, any being sufficiently more powerful than us would qualify as a god, be it Chaotic, Lovecraftian or Abrahamic in origin...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/05 23:22:22
They also have no free will. They simply are their portfolios.
"'players must agree how they are going to select their armies, and if any restrictions apply to the number and type of models they can use."
This is an actual rule in the actual rulebook. Quit whining about how you can imagine someone's army touching you in a bad place and play by the actual rules.
Freelance Ontologist
When people ask, "What's the point in understanding everything?" they've just disqualified themselves from using questions and should disappear in a puff of paradox. But they don't understand and just continue existing, which are also their only two strategies for life.
Well, they were "born" at specific times, but due to the nature of the warp, and just what they are, they also always existed. They were able to be born because they always were. It's complicated
Also, are they gods in the literal sense? Because they don't really "fit" they criteria of a deity, since a god is born before time (and, correct me if I'm wrong, I remember they were born between the Age of Strife and Dark Age, including Slaanesh and...well, the greatest Eldar rave party), is omnipotent and omniscent (and judging by their numerous failures and insane use of logic, they're clearly not) and are supposedly involved someway in the shaping of the universe (whereas that's the other way around, with them being literally man/Xenos made).
Also, does this mean the Warp is sentient or something? Are the Chaos gods just some deluded, emotion-sucking, Lovercraftain abomination instead of gods? (Most Important, do Gork and Mork qualify aswell? )
Your definition of a god is rather... Abrahamic. Which is fine, but not really applicable to the Grimdark Universe.
the chaos gods are a lot like our human ideas of gods, they literally don't make any sense.
Gork and Mork are definitely gods, and the chaos gods are too, also the emperor (although that is very up for debate)
The warp doesn't have time, therefore the chaos gods don't care about time, but they have stories and events that happen in a timeline? Doesn't make sense. (although I can be wrong, if I am please correct me)
They have always existed, but at the same time never existed? Its somewhat silly, so don't think /too/ much about it.
Khorne: Blood shed, war, etc. But also "Survival of the Fittest", loyalty, and honor.
Nurgle: Death, Rot, Decay, diease. But also nature incarnate and the stoic will to stand against time. (In short, if things are bad, just don't care about it)
Tzeentch: Change, planning, schemeing, etc. But also hope, and progress.
Slanesh: Excess, pleasure (in the extreames) and then some. But also happiness, (someone has be to happy from your suffering after all)
Regiment: 91st Schrott Experimental Regiment
Regiment Planet: Schrott Specialization: Salvaged, Heavily Modified, and/or Experimental Mechanized Units. "SIR! Are you sure this will work!?"
"I HAVE NO IDEA, PULL THE TRIGGER!!!" 91st comms chatter.
If by God you mean an omniscient and omnipotent and eternal being, then the answer is no.
The Chaos Gods are simply psychic manifestation of sentient beings emotions, beliefs and ideas.
Also, they aren't really trying to destroy their creators (mortals). They simply want to spread more chaos in the materium, so to increase the chaos in the immaterium (and thus gaining more power).
Also, remember that they don't literally care about the mortal realm. The ultimate goal of each of the Chaos Gods is to win the Great Game (beating the other three gods). To do so, they need to amass more power and thus they need to gain emotions from the mortals (which is why they gain followers and interact with the materium).
Also, the question of when they were born is hard to explain because of the duality of the materium-immaterium. You see, in the materium, there is a point in time during which they were born (since they need the existence of conscious being to exist). However, in the immaterium, time and space don't really obey to any kind of logic, so they were kinda always there. But then again, trying to understand this is pointless, since chaos is, at its base, the negation of the logical universe that is the materium.
Are they, though? I mean, they seem to do what they want to do, they're not bound by any particular 'Laws'. I mean, you can generally predict how they are going to act, (At least, in broad strokes. Khorne will be angry and fighty, Nurgle will be sickly and pestilent, Tzeentch will do the exact opposite of what is expected, except when you expect the opposite of what is expected,) but that's true of most people, too. How do you define free will?
WaaaghBozz wrote: So...they are born from the Warp, each one at distant times, FROM HUMAN'S (or Xenos') FEELINGS AND EMOTIONS. And, depending on the galacric mood, they can be either good or bad (and as we are in the grim darkness of the far future, they're pretty nasty.)
WaaaghBozz wrote: So, basically...they're YIN-YANG (sorta) AVATARS of FEELINGS who have gained CONSCIOUSNESS and seek to destroy their OWN CREATORS despite literally NEEDING THEM...?
Yes they are basically Avatars of emotions that have gained consciousness. They are not trying to destroy their creators, they are trying to empower themselves. What they are trying to do is sow Chaos in its most raw state. This is because Order allows people to be relatively calm and emotionless. These Gods are empowered by the amount of emotion that any number of people experience, and while the Imperium exists there will be raw untapped power for each of the god's
WaaaghBozz wrote: Also, are they gods in the literal sense? Because they don't really "fit" they criteria of a deity, since a god is born before time (and, correct me if I'm wrong, I remember they were born between the Age of Strife and Dark Age, including Slaanesh and...well, the greatest Eldar rave party), is omnipotent and omniscient (and judging by their numerous failures and insane use of logic, they're clearly not) and are supposedly involved someway in the shaping of the universe (whereas that's the other way around, with them being literally man/Xenos made).
Well that is up to you and how you define what is a god. Does a god need to posses any of the attributes that you stated? Whether or not they are gods is totally up to you. I personally don't see them as gods but simple beings with greater power then anything else.
WaaaghBozz wrote: Also, does this mean the Warp is sentient or something? Are the Chaos gods just some deluded, emotion-sucking, Lovercraftain abomination instead of gods? (Most Important, do Gork and Mork qualify aswell? )
No the warp is pure energy and beings with the willpower can manifest things from that energy.
Also, are they gods in the literal sense? Because they don't really "fit" they criteria of a deity, since a god is born before time (and, correct me if I'm wrong, I remember they were born between the Age of Strife and Dark Age, including Slaanesh and...well, the greatest Eldar rave party), is omnipotent and omniscent (and judging by their numerous failures and insane use of logic, they're clearly not) and are supposedly involved someway in the shaping of the universe (whereas that's the other way around, with them being literally man/Xenos made).
Also, does this mean the Warp is sentient or something? Are the Chaos gods just some deluded, emotion-sucking, Lovercraftain abomination instead of gods? (Most Important, do Gork and Mork qualify aswell? )
Your definition of a god is rather... Abrahamic. Which is fine, but not really applicable to the Grimdark Universe.
Well, it's not strictly Abrhamic, as you can apply this criteria even to a god like Zeus: born by the titans before the universe we know, father of all gods and creator of most of Earth, justice and arts, and all knowing - all seeing from the top of mount Olympus.
Above all, what "didn't add up" was that any god, ranging from Horus to Xenu and Jesus himself, is his own, definite entity, whereas the four Chaos gods are subjected to the collective mood of the Materium
WaaaghBozz wrote: So...they are born from the Warp, each one at distant times, FROM HUMAN'S (or Xenos') FEELINGS AND EMOTIONS. And, depending on the galacric mood, they can be either good or bad (and as we are in the grim darkness of the far future, they're pretty nasty.)
WaaaghBozz wrote: So, basically...they're YIN-YANG (sorta) AVATARS of FEELINGS who have gained CONSCIOUSNESS and seek to destroy their OWN CREATORS despite literally NEEDING THEM...?
Yes they are basically Avatars of emotions that have gained consciousness. They are not trying to destroy their creators, they are trying to empower themselves. What they are trying to do is sow Chaos in its most raw state. This is because Order allows people to be relatively calm and emotionless. These Gods are empowered by the amount of emotion that any number of people experience, and while the Imperium exists there will be raw untapped power for each of the god's
WaaaghBozz wrote: Also, are they gods in the literal sense? Because they don't really "fit" they criteria of a deity, since a god is born before time (and, correct me if I'm wrong, I remember they were born between the Age of Strife and Dark Age, including Slaanesh and...well, the greatest Eldar rave party), is omnipotent and omniscient (and judging by their numerous failures and insane use of logic, they're clearly not) and are supposedly involved someway in the shaping of the universe (whereas that's the other way around, with them being literally man/Xenos made).
Well that is up to you and how you define what is a god. Does a god need to posses any of the attributes that you stated? Whether or not they are gods is totally up to you. I personally don't see them as gods but simple beings with greater power then anything else.
WaaaghBozz wrote: Also, does this mean the Warp is sentient or something? Are the Chaos gods just some deluded, emotion-sucking, Lovercraftain abomination instead of gods? (Most Important, do Gork and Mork qualify aswell? )
No the warp is pure energy and beings with the willpower can manifest things from that energy.
Thanks for the delucidation, I came to reason too that they're "just" a manifestation of an alien, powerful entities - the title of "gods" being nore of an onorific of their power and their need to feed off "parayer" (wich is wrong, since they merely need emotion and mot direct prayer, but still...it stuck around) instead of being indicative of a "trascendent", divine nature.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ynneadwraith wrote: Yeah they're basically the echoes of the emotions of billions upon billions of sentient beings both living and dead, coalesced to the point that they have achieved sentience.
It's a terrifying concept given the nature of life in 40k.
Also, it's only Slaanesh that we know for certain was 'born' during the Age of Strife. The others were likely around before that. Given that it was the War in Heaven that turned the warp into the hellhole we know today, i'd say that their 'birth' would be sometime around then.
Edit:
Re-reading your OP, you probably need to define what you mean by 'god'. Strictly speaking, any being sufficiently more powerful than us would qualify as a god, be it Chaotic, Lovecraftian or Abrahamic in origin...
Well...I have to disagree on your "god"point. Think about charachters like superman, or dr manhattan, or the Emperor himself. All mighty and powerful, but in no way - and these three in particular have always denied being - gods.
Not even angels or demons qualify as gods in religions, but they're still described as immensely powerful
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/12/06 12:16:07
Gods have been many things accross human history. There are leitmotivs in mythologies ; the chaos gods of warhammer 40k seem derived from ancient polytheist religions ; where certain aspects of existence were each embodied by their particular divinity. All these aspects having been narrowed down to Khorne Nurgle Tzeench and Slaanesh. Some of these mythologies were not concerned with the birth or apparition of their gods.
Roman religion ; was very inclusive, and often resembled what I'm talking about here. There was a divinity for home, a dual divinity for war and peace ...
Re-reading your OP, you probably need to define what you mean by 'god'. Strictly speaking, any being sufficiently more powerful than us would qualify as a god, be it Chaotic, Lovecraftian or Abrahamic in origin...
Well...I have to disagree on your "god"point. Think about charachters like superman, or dr manhattan, or the Emperor himself. All mighty and powerful, but in no way - and these three in particular have always denied being - gods.
Not even angels or demons qualify as gods in religions, but they're still described as immensely powerful
Compared to us they're all 'Gods', I'd say.
A 'god' is a pretty loosely defined term, looking at the gamut of human religious beliefs.
The Norse gods, in particular, would not classify as gods in the Abrahamic sense. Loki specifically is a Jotun, and the whole lot of them are mortal. Angels and Demons don't qualify as gods in the Abrahamic faiths simply because of their monotheistic structure. If they were polytheist (or ported over into another religion), they'd most likely qualify.
As far as I can see, the term 'god' simply represents the higher tiers of Clarke's Third Law: 'Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic'. Or rather, the slight modification that produces Sherman's Last Law: 'Any sufficiently advanced extraterrestrial intelligence is indistinguishable from a god'
What criteria would you use to categorise something as a 'god'?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, you are a mere mortal OP, you cannot judge or fully comprehend.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/06 13:35:21
Generic characters disappearing? Elite units of your army losing options and customizations? No longer finding that motivation to convert?
Your army could suffer Post-Chapterhouse Stress Disorder (PCSD)! If you think that your army is suffering one or more of the aforementioned symptoms, call us at 789-666-1982 for a quick diagnosis!
The question of time and the warp deserves some further thought too.
In any case the warp is not a timeless dimension. Time exists within the warp, BUT it does not flow in a linear way. Which is conceptually very weird. The way I like to think of it ; is that in a way in the warp you can travel simultaneously through time and space.
Let me explain : the warp might be ' dimensional in a particular way : in our universe, we cannot travel in time, but in the warp travelling in time is possible, just in the same weird way that travelling through space is.
The warp is parallel to the materium ; they are both part of the same universe. So the warp is not independant from time nor space, but works in a non-linear way regarding those two dimensions.
The question of their consciousness is interesting as well. Their actions are determined by their character ; and I do not believe theiy are conscious of their nature because they don't actively seek worship. They were formed as indvidual beings by condensation of different aspects : there might have originally been a god for health (Isha) and one for disease (nurgle) and with the fall of the eldar both aspects got condensed into Nurgle. They are conscious in a way and act with a certain rationality (integrating their chaotic nature -wich is to me simply the reflection of the chaotic nature of emotions-) but there is a limit to this consciousness ; their actions are determined by what/who they are ; and they cannot act to actively change who/what they are.
GreedyPizza wrote: The question of time and the warp deserves some further thought too.
In any case the warp is not a timeless dimension. Time exists within the warp, BUT it does not flow in a linear way. Which is conceptually very weird. The way I like to think of it ; is that in a way in the warp you can travel simultaneously through time and space.
Let me explain : the warp might be ' dimensional in a particular way : in our universe, we cannot travel in time, but in the warp travelling in time is possible, just in the same weird way that travelling through space is.
The warp is parallel to the materium ; they are both part of the same universe. So the warp is not independant from time nor space, but works in a non-linear way regarding those two dimensions.
The question of their consciousness is interesting as well. Their actions are determined by their character ; and I do not believe theiy are conscious of their nature because they don't actively seek worship. They were formed as indvidual beings by condensation of different aspects : there might have originally been a god for health (Isha) and one for disease (nurgle) and with the fall of the eldar both aspects got condensed into Nurgle. They are conscious in a way and act with a certain rationality (integrating their chaotic nature -wich is to me simply the reflection of the chaotic nature of emotions-) but there is a limit to this consciousness ; their actions are determined by what/who they are ; and they cannot act to actively change who/what they are.
Yeah this is a good explanation.
The weirdest thing is that the pace of time isn't strictly linear in our universe either. You can only move in one direction through it (forwards), unlike the warp. However, you can travel faster or slower through time depending on how fast you're travelling, or how much gravity you're experiencing.
I'd also argue that the concept of true free will for the Chaos Gods is every bit as complicated as the debate as to whether us real-life humans truly have free will...
An acceptable definition of a God is one being or spirit who is worshipped, and has power over nature or human fortunes. Not necessarily seen as being the creator, but is sufficiently powerful and influential enough to force their will upon others. From this, we can see that The Emperor is a God, even though he does not want this title.
As said before, the Chaos gods are mortal emotions made manifest. Slaanesh being the youngest, was born at the height of the Eldar race's hedonism, while Nurgle is the oldest (Source: Realm of Chaos) and derives his strength from the despair of mortals, and their fear of death (arguably the oldest fear)
These emotions would require higher cognitive thought than early organisms, and so the Chaos gods would not of been present at the dawn of time.
I vaguely remember Khorne being brought into creation the first time a mortal murdered another mortal but I can't remember the source. And I have no idea about Tzeentch, maybe from the first lie?
Toastedandy wrote: An acceptable definition of a God is one being or spirit who is worshipped, and has power over nature or human fortunes. Not necessarily seen as being the creator, but is sufficiently powerful and influential enough to force their will upon others. From this, we can see that The Emperor is a God, even though he does not want this title.
While I definitely agree with the intent, by the definition stated there Kim Jong Un would be a god...
He has power over nature (building dams), has immense power over the fortunes of his people and is worshipped.
Still, I have to say that I agree with the premise.
As said before, the Chaos gods are mortal emotions made manifest. Slaanesh being the youngest, was born at the height of the Eldar race's hedonism, while Nurgle is the oldest (Source: Realm of Chaos) and derives his strength from the despair of mortals, and their fear of death (arguably the oldest fear)
These emotions would require higher cognitive thought than early organisms, and so the Chaos gods would not of been present at the dawn of time.
I vaguely remember Khorne being brought into creation the first time a mortal murdered another mortal but I can't remember the source. And I have no idea about Tzeentch, maybe from the first lie?
From my understanding of this is that 'time' as a physical dimension is different in the warp and in the materium.
From our perspective in the materium where time is linear, there are clear events that happened before the Chaos Gods were born, and clear events that happened afterwards.
However, time in the warp is not linear. Effect can precede cause. The Chaos Gods can have existed before they were born, simply because time does not work in a linear fashion in the warp (in fact, we don't know how time works in the warp. It clearly still changes, but not in a way that we recognise).
As to what the gods actually are, I feel like they're roughly similar to how gods work in Terry Pratchett's Discworld (which fits quite nicely with the 'birth' stories you've posted).
Basically, there are billions and billions of gods. They begin their lives as barely present waifs that are blown about by the breeze, barely conscious but with a very weak ability to influence the physical universe, and their power is fed by belief.
A very lucky few will stumble upon a person. Even fewer will stumble upon a person in need. Even fewer than that will be able to do something about it. The scenario goes like this:
A person was walking one day when the ground gave way and the ground gave way and they fell into a cave. Fumbling around in the pitch darkness, they attempt to strike a match. The first snaps. The second sparks, but a stray drop of water from the ceiling extinguishes it. 'Please...' he whispers, as he strikes his last match. Drawn to his plea like a moth to a flame, the little proto-deity bends a breeze ever so slightly so that the match sputters into life.
'Thank god!' the man cries, and the little waif feels the most minute surge of power, intelligence, and being. Hitching a ride on the consciousness of his believer, he's carried into the world towards his destiny.
Now, replace a couple of key ideas. These little proto-gods in 40k would be the progenitors of the warp entities we know today, and appear to be created from the first instance of a strong emotion. Blown about by the winds of the empyrean, they feed from the strong emotions that form the core of their being, until finally they gain the power to influence the material universe themselves and actively seek followers to feed them.
The other interesting concept of Pratchett's Gods is that although they are very much conscious entities capable of free will, their thought processes are influenced by their followers (primarily their first follower).
For instance, the first ever follower of the great god Om in Small Gods was a shepherd. Due to that fact, rooted deep in his subconscious is the concept that his flock needs to be led.
It's remarked that if his first follower was a goatherd, he'd have a very different outlook. Sheep are stupid and need to be led. Goats are clever, and need to be guided.
That's how I see the Chaos Gods. Very much conscious entities capable of free will, but with thought processes that are shaped and moulded by the nature of their being.
Toastedandy wrote: An acceptable definition of a God is one being or spirit who is worshipped, and has power over nature or human fortunes. Not necessarily seen as being the creator, but is sufficiently powerful and influential enough to force their will upon others. From this, we can see that The Emperor is a God, even though he does not want this title.
While I definitely agree with the intent, by the definition stated there Kim Jong Un would be a god...
Yes, by definition Kim Jong Un would be a God. I'm not trolling I swear! Below is the Mirriam-Webster definition of "God"
1
capitalized : the supreme or ultimate reality: as
a : the Being perfect in power, wisdom, and goodness who is worshipped as creator and ruler of the universe
b Christian Science : the incorporeal divine Principle ruling over all as eternal Spirit : infinite Mind
2
: a being or object believed to have more than natural attributes and powers and to require human worship; specifically : one controlling a particular aspect or part of reality
3
: a person or thing of supreme value
4
: a powerful ruler
From my understanding of this is that 'time' as a physical dimension is different in the warp and in the materium.
From our perspective in the materium where time is linear, there are clear events that happened before the Chaos Gods were born, and clear events that happened afterwards.
However, time in the warp is not linear. Effect can precede cause. The Chaos Gods can have existed before they were born, simply because time does not work in a linear fashion in the warp (in fact, we don't know how time works in the warp. It clearly still changes, but not in a way that we recognise).
While I agree, I would say, that they may of existed in some raw form prior to these birth stories, I am of the opinion that they did not attain god-hood and possibly conscience thought, untill these events took place. ie Raw emotion given a form and thought
I feel like they're roughly similar to how gods work in Terry Pratchett's Discworld .
Yes I agree, in the sense that the raw forms of Nurgle Khorne etc required purpose and an attachment to the physical realm to...well..be.
Very much conscious entities capable of free will, but with thought processes that are shaped and moulded by the nature of their being.
Exactly
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/06 15:42:40
While not requiring worship, I feel like some of the fluff implies that Slaanesh feeds on or maybe absorbs unprotected Eldar souls after they die.
I also think there's a possibility that the Old Ones created or strengthened the chaos gods by engineering orks, humans, and maybe other psychic races.
I don't know how the fluff behind these ideas is currently regarded, things have changed a lot since the old ones were Slaan and the Night Lords worshiped Khorne.
The warp echoes emotions from living beings. Signals originating from related emotions congregate in the warp, causing storms. Get enough of that in one place, boom, emergent intelligence.
The old meta is dead and the new meta struggles to be born. Now is the time of munchkins.
Warp is psychic parallel dimension.
Creatures from warp feed on psychic energy generated from realspace creatures suffering/vices and their souls which are concentrated psychic energy.
Chaos gods are entities that got fat and big of that energy and ensure the flow wont stop - or even get MOAR of it.
They will give little gifts - same as loan sharks - to take more of the suffering the gifted will generate later.
So they are parasites basically - the big four are biggest and smartest of em.
Emperor wanted to separate and protect humanity from warp - you know where it got him but he still keeps burning alot of psychers to stop humanity from birthing is own Slaanesh and warpstoms.
The_Slight_Brigade wrote: While not requiring worship, I feel like some of the fluff implies that Slaanesh feeds on or maybe absorbs unprotected Eldar souls after they die.
I also think there's a possibility that the Old Ones created or strengthened the chaos gods by engineering orks, humans, and maybe other psychic races.
I don't know how the fluff behind these ideas is currently regarded, things have changed a lot since the old ones were Slaan and the Night Lords worshiped Khorne.
Yeah the first statement is definitely the case. Slaanesh devours Eldar souls after they die, so the Craftworlders protect themselves with Spirit Stones and the Dark Eldar protect themselves by making sure they never die (pretty ballsy goal, thinking about it).
I'm not sure how solid of an assertion the second one is in the fluff, but I was under the impression that all the carnage during the War in Heaven messed up the warp into the hellhole it is today. It used to be a calm ocean and now it's a violent storm. Either the Chaos Gods were birthed during that conflict, or they began as benign entities and were twisted into the grimdark forms we know and love.
The warp echoes emotions from living beings. Signals originating from related emotions congregate in the warp, causing storms. Get enough of that in one place, boom, emergent intelligence.
This is a brilliant description of what the Chaos Gods fundamentally are.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/12/14 11:49:51
Toastedandy wrote: An acceptable definition of a God is one being or spirit who is worshipped, and has power over nature or human fortunes. Not necessarily seen as being the creator, but is sufficiently powerful and influential enough to force their will upon others. From this, we can see that The Emperor is a God, even though he does not want this title.
While I definitely agree with the intent, by the definition stated there Kim Jong Un would be a god...
He has power over nature (building dams), has immense power over the fortunes of his people and is worshipped.
Still, I have to say that I agree with the premise.
As said before, the Chaos gods are mortal emotions made manifest. Slaanesh being the youngest, was born at the height of the Eldar race's hedonism, while Nurgle is the oldest (Source: Realm of Chaos) and derives his strength from the despair of mortals, and their fear of death (arguably the oldest fear)
These emotions would require higher cognitive thought than early organisms, and so the Chaos gods would not of been present at the dawn of time.
I vaguely remember Khorne being brought into creation the first time a mortal murdered another mortal but I can't remember the source. And I have no idea about Tzeentch, maybe from the first lie?
From my understanding of this is that 'time' as a physical dimension is different in the warp and in the materium.
From our perspective in the materium where time is linear, there are clear events that happened before the Chaos Gods were born, and clear events that happened afterwards.
However, time in the warp is not linear. Effect can precede cause. The Chaos Gods can have existed before they were born, simply because time does not work in a linear fashion in the warp (in fact, we don't know how time works in the warp. It clearly still changes, but not in a way that we recognise).
As to what the gods actually are, I feel like they're roughly similar to how gods work in Terry Pratchett's Discworld (which fits quite nicely with the 'birth' stories you've posted).
Basically, there are billions and billions of gods. They begin their lives as barely present waifs that are blown about by the breeze, barely conscious but with a very weak ability to influence the physical universe, and their power is fed by belief.
A very lucky few will stumble upon a person. Even fewer will stumble upon a person in need. Even fewer than that will be able to do something about it. The scenario goes like this:
A person was walking one day when the ground gave way and the ground gave way and they fell into a cave. Fumbling around in the pitch darkness, they attempt to strike a match. The first snaps. The second sparks, but a stray drop of water from the ceiling extinguishes it. 'Please...' he whispers, as he strikes his last match. Drawn to his plea like a moth to a flame, the little proto-deity bends a breeze ever so slightly so that the match sputters into life.
'Thank god!' the man cries, and the little waif feels the most minute surge of power, intelligence, and being. Hitching a ride on the consciousness of his believer, he's carried into the world towards his destiny.
Now, replace a couple of key ideas. These little proto-gods in 40k would be the progenitors of the warp entities we know today, and appear to be created from the first instance of a strong emotion. Blown about by the winds of the empyrean, they feed from the strong emotions that form the core of their being, until finally they gain the power to influence the material universe themselves and actively seek followers to feed them.
The other interesting concept of Pratchett's Gods is that although they are very much conscious entities capable of free will, their thought processes are influenced by their followers (primarily their first follower).
For instance, the first ever follower of the great god Om in Small Gods was a shepherd. Due to that fact, rooted deep in his subconscious is the concept that his flock needs to be led.
It's remarked that if his first follower was a goatherd, he'd have a very different outlook. Sheep are stupid and need to be led. Goats are clever, and need to be guided.
That's how I see the Chaos Gods. Very much conscious entities capable of free will, but with thought processes that are shaped and moulded by the nature of their being.
The Pratchett interpretation is a good one, but to clarify it takes more than one person's faith to birth them. For example, it took an entire civilization's descent into hedonism to birth Slaanesh.
40k drinking game: take a shot everytime a book references Skitarii using transports.
I just wanted to chime in and say that the Greek Gods were, in no way, omnipotent or omniscient . Theyre were more powerful than humans, sure, but they constantly got tricked, deceived, and screwed, and had very 'human' interactions with things. Most ancient gods were this way, and is sort of a big thing that sets the Abrahamic God apart. Needing omnipotence as a defining factor for what a God is really narrows down the real world mythologies.
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