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Is anybody keeping up with the Traitor Legions updates?

I'm not sure that I like these updates. Basically, it looks like they're giving out VoTLW for free along with legion specific "chapter tactics." So this means that they get the chapter tactics and the extra LD, but they still cost a point cheaper.

But ok, ok. Small beans.

Death Guard has me deeply concerned.

Basic CSM in this legion are going to be cheaper than necrons, are going to be more flexible than necrons and more durable than necrons.

Is anybody else concerned about this?

Not really. CSM really needed to have a bone thrown to them, and I would.fully expect the Legion devoted to Nurgle to be hard as nails

 War Kitten wrote:
Not really. CSM really needed to have a bone thrown to them, and I would.fully expect the Legion devoted to Nurgle to be hard as nails

My concern isn't just that they're hard as nails. My concern is that that they're hard as nails for 15 ppm. That's a problem.

Compare that to Iron Hands.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
At the very least, they should have had to pay the extra 1 ppm for VotLW in exchange for the chapter tactics. That's all I'm saying.

16ppm actually. But who is counting anyway?

I will say though that they maybe went a bit far with the Death Guard. Free Fearless and FnP at the cost of -1I was good enough, there was no need to give them all Relentless too. It doesn't break them, but it just seems too much compared to the other Legions (grumbles when gazing upon my beloved Word Bearers).

 Traditio wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
Not really. CSM really needed to have a bone thrown to them, and I would.fully expect the Legion devoted to Nurgle to be hard as nails

My concern isn't just that they're hard as nails. My concern is that that they're hard as nails for 15 ppm. That's a problem.

Compare that to Iron Hands.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
At the very least, they should have had to pay the extra 1 ppm for VotLW in exchange for the chapter tactics. That's all I'm saying.

I'll freely admit that DG are incredibly points efficient now with their buff, but titling the thread "OP Death Guard Cheese" was probably not the best move. Its hardly cheese

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
16ppm actually. But who is counting anyway?

Where are you getting 16 ppm? VotLW is a free upgrade if you take a legion detachment.

13 ppm for base marine + 2 ppm for MoN, right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 War Kitten wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
Not really. CSM really needed to have a bone thrown to them, and I would.fully expect the Legion devoted to Nurgle to be hard as nails

My concern isn't just that they're hard as nails. My concern is that that they're hard as nails for 15 ppm. That's a problem.

Compare that to Iron Hands.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
At the very least, they should have had to pay the extra 1 ppm for VotLW in exchange for the chapter tactics. That's all I'm saying.

I'll freely admit that DG are incredibly points efficient now with their buff, but titling the thread "OP Death Guard Cheese" was probably not the best move. Its hardly cheese

"Incredibly points efficient" is the exact DEFINITION of OP cheese.

MoN is +3ppm

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:
MoN is +3ppm

So it is. My bad.

Still, though:

What you have with the new death guard marines at 16 ppm is basically a better version of a Necron Immortal. Necron Immortals cost 17 ppm, and I don't think that anybody is going to disagree with me when I say that necrons are too points efficient already.

Which just proves my point:

Death guard rules are OP cheese.

 Traditio wrote:
"Incredibly points efficient" is the exact DEFINITION of OP cheese.

no it isnt

why do you do this

just stop

How many skies falling does this make, I've lost count?

 BBAP wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
"Incredibly points efficient" is the exact DEFINITION of OP cheese.

no it isnt

why do you do this

just stop

Yes, it is.

"Incredibly points efficient" ACTUALLY means "incredibly undercosted," and "incredibly undercosted" means "very OP."

Ergo: CHEEEEEEEEEESE!

Well I can tell this thread is going to be at the top of Dakka for the next couple of weeks... for all the wrong reasons

No it means they're actually worth what you pay for them. I.E you don't feel like you've shot yourself in the foot by taking them.

Necron Immortals... you mean that unit no one takes aside from the token tax required to run the Core Necron Formation? You are comparing them to one of the few Necron units that people actual half-consider being over costed by a point.

A 5-man Immortal Unit also costs 5 points cheaper than a basic DG squad (champion tax).

The Immortal Squad is also armed with rapid-fire Heavy Bolters.

DG and Immortals trade a point in offence for a point in defence. Not only that, but you're forgetting Reanimation Protocols is better than FnP: an Immortal still gets RP against Str 10 or Instant Death via some other method while the DG marine doesn't.

Not only that but the Immortals can at least threaten tanks at range. They're unlikely to cause damage, but they're more likely than Death Guard.



Are the DG rules a bit much? Maybe yes. As I said, I disagree with them getting free Relentless on top of everything else. But OP they are not.

 Traditio wrote:

 BBAP wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
"Incredibly points efficient" is the exact DEFINITION of OP cheese.

no it isnt

why do you do this

just stop

Yes, it is.

"Incredibly points efficient" ACTUALLY means "incredibly undercosted," and "incredibly undercosted" means "very OP."

Ergo: CHEEEEEEEEEESE!

in a world where "gakky units" is what we're aspiring to

everywhere else "points efficient" means "maximum output for minimum points"

that is what units should be

anything that isn't that, sucks

you want 40k to have a load of overcosted suck units though

that's your schtick

it's boring

stop

 Traditio wrote:

 BBAP wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
"Incredibly points efficient" is the exact DEFINITION of OP cheese.

no it isnt

why do you do this

just stop

Yes, it is.

"Incredibly points efficient" ACTUALLY means "incredibly undercosted," and "incredibly undercosted" means "very OP."

Ergo: CHEEEEEEEEEESE!

That line of thinking is oddly shaped. Being points efficient conpared to being undercosted is like an apple compared to an orange.

 Traditio wrote:
"Incredibly points efficient" is the exact DEFINITION of OP cheese.

No, Traditio. For you, "Is not an upupgraded Space Marine in a Rhino" is the exact definition of OP cheese.

They are not OP. More durable yes, but they were horrible under powered before. They now need to be engaged by different units to kill quickly, but will still die.

They don't auto-fold to str8 ap3. still die vs str 10 ap3 all the same.

EDIT: click to fast: still pathetic damage output.

Yea. While it seems like a huge bone has been tossed our way (finally), damage output on anything in the codex besides a heldrake is minimal, and heldrakes themselves are still overpriced.

A couple plasma guns here and there is a scratch on the surface in a D scythe, pseudo rending, grav spam, gargantuan creature super heavy era of 40k.

Traditio wrote:Is anybody keeping up with the Traitor Legions updates?

I'm not sure that I like these updates. Basically, it looks like they're giving out VoTLW for free along with legion specific "chapter tactics." So this means that they get the chapter tactics and the extra LD, but they still cost a point cheaper.

But ok, ok. Small beans.

Death Guard has me deeply concerned.

Basic CSM in this legion are going to be cheaper than necrons, are going to be more flexible than necrons and more durable than necrons.

Is anybody else concerned about this?

Traditio wrote:

My concern isn't just that they're hard as nails. My concern is that that they're hard as nails for 15 ppm. That's a problem.

Compare that to Iron Hands.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
At the very least, they should have had to pay the extra 1 ppm for VotLW in exchange for the chapter tactics. That's all I'm saying.

Traditio wrote:
Where are you getting 16 ppm? VotLW is a free upgrade if you take a legion detachment.

13 ppm for base marine + 2 ppm for MoN, right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

My concern isn't just that they're hard as nails. My concern is that that they're hard as nails for 15 ppm. That's a problem.

Compare that to Iron Hands.

Traditio wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:
At the very least, they should have had to pay the extra 1 ppm for VotLW in exchange for the chapter tactics. That's all I'm saying.

"Incredibly points efficient" is the exact DEFINITION of OP cheese.

Traditio wrote:
So it is. My bad.

Still, though:

What you have with the new death guard marines at 16 ppm is basically a better version of a Necron Immortal. Necron Immortals cost 17 ppm, and I don't think that anybody is going to disagree with me when I say that necrons are too points efficient already.

Which just proves my point:

Death guard rules are OP cheese.

Traditio wrote:Yes, it is.

"Incredibly points efficient" ACTUALLY means "incredibly undercosted," and "incredibly undercosted" means "very OP."

Ergo: CHEEEEEEEEEESE!

I would like to submit a formal request that you change your avatar, as you're giving people from the South a bad name showing the Confederate battle standard associated with all your incessant whining. Seriously man, I'm in Mississippi. The Confederate battle flag is part of my state's flag and with every post like this you make it digs the proverbial hole deeper. Stop it.

Death Guard are good now. They're not broken, they're where they should have been all along in my opinion. Let the Chaos Players have their good times man. Your shrill screech got old a while back. How about you actually play against it and give it a fair shake before you start yelling on here regarding how good or bad something *really* is.

In closing, I will reiterate: Stop it.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Can a mod please change the name of this thread to "Er ma gerd ma nercrerns!"

Never thought I would see the day where necron and iron hands players would complain about CSM not being underpowered and overcosted as feth, but instead they are moderatly acceptable on the table. I advise any player who thinks they are overpowered to read both the necron codex and CSM codex again. Still think they are OP gak in comparison? Then get back to reading son.

TL;DR for the OP: "an army gets something that my 5th edition C:SM army can't do, OP CHEEEEEESE".

Well, it's time to set the clocks again aint it?

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Well, it's time to set the clocks again aint it?

33 minutes. OP khorne bezerkerd!

awh poor little Traditio...

all those bolters... man... thats so strong man... being able to shoot a heavy bolter and rapid fire some bolters and charge... oh my goodness... thats.. oh wow...

But obviously gladius transport spam is fine like that perfectly balanced.

If CSM could take grav cannons or grav guns, then there'd be an issue, but currently its literally just a unit of space marines with worse ATSKNF, and worse RP.

I don't see the issue, its a bit much, but its not game breaking cheese.

Relentless is only an issue with Havocs and Chosen, but when are they ever going to charge?

That said, a lot of you are not understanding how durable things are in the long run. You know how good Obliterators can actually be now? Even Mutilators end up being below mediocre now because they can actually tarpit anything forever.

 Traditio wrote:
"Incredibly points efficient" ACTUALLY means "incredibly undercosted," and "incredibly undercosted" means "very OP."

Ergo: CHEEEEEEEEEESE!

Oh, lordy. This cringe-worthy statement just says it all about Dakka's favorite troll.

FYI Traditio, Space Marines are incredibly points efficient, especially in a Gladius (or DA Lion's Blade) where you don't have to actually pay any points for transports besides if you want to put upgrades on them. I never hear you call Marines cheese. Oh wait, you're a Marine player, so Marines are automatically exempt from being cheese.

I don't play Death Guard, nor do I plan to in the near future (mostly because I don't like anything Nurgle, being a Khorne man myself), but I'm happy to see CSM get some love for once. They've been languishing on the bottom of the competitive pile for years now, so they deserve some good rules and formations. Honestly it's probably still not enough, but we'll probably have to wait until 8th edition before CSM get the true rework that they so desperately need. The new stuff is definitely not cheese, it's just on par with some other armies now.

Whine all you want to though, it's good for a chuckle every once in a while!

As I said, Relentless doesn't make them OP but it's probably a bit much on top of all the already existing bonuses. Like do they really need to be able to charge after rapid firing? No, but they now can if they really need to.


And yes DG Obliterators are Tough. At 76ppm they might actually be worth it now rather than being taken because everything else is just flat out bad.

A Space Marine player is complaining about CSM cheese? Just because one unit in a codex got a few buffs? Just grav-cannon them down if you are so worried about them. Or spam free transports at them. Or literally all of the tools your codex gives you to deal with them.

ZergSmasher wrote:FYI Traditio, Space Marines are incredibly points efficient, especially in a Gladius (or DA Lion's Blade) where you don't have to actually pay any points for transports besides if you want to put upgrades on them.

That doesn't make space marines points efficient. That makes the gladius strike force points efficient.

And guess what? People commonly complain about the gladius strike force being OP and undercosted.

I agree with that sentiment.

Space marines (I'll assume you mean tactical marines, assault marines and devastator marines), however, by themselves, are not commonly considered points efficient unless they are wielding grav cannons, are in a free rhino and have white scars chapter tactics (or some similar thing).

I never hear you call Marines cheese. Oh wait, you're a Marine player, so Marines are automatically exempt from being cheese.

There's lots of cheese in the SM codex. But if you compare what a deathguard CSM gets for 16 points and you compare it to what an iron hands tactical marine gets for 14...yeah. No contest. The deathguard CSM isn't just 2 ppm better. By right, its points cost should be higher.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
A Space Marine player is complaining about CSM cheese? Just because one unit in a codex got a few buffs? Just grav-cannon them down if you are so worried about them. Or spam free transports at them. Or literally all of the tools your codex gives you to deal with them.

You understand that "C:SM has cheese" is not a legitimate answer to my claim that deathguard is cheese, yes?