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So a carnifex is 120 points

A Nemesis Dreadknight is 130 with the following:

Double the initiative

WS 5 v WS 3

BS 4 v BS 3

Leadership 10 v Leadership 7

2+ save v 3+ save

Psyker rerolling 1s on deny the witch v not a psyker

Preferred enemy daemons v no preferred enemy

deep strike v no deepstrike

5+ invuln (Easy to make 4+) v no invuln

Don't even try to say that the d3 ap NOTHING hammer of wraths are even remotely useful other than taking out a rhino that was going to die anyway.

Not to mention personal homers, force weapons, epic guns that don't replace it's powerfists for upgrades

Tell me something isn't completely wrong here?

Lots of examples like this in 40K. Compare a Herald of Tzeentch on a disk to a Farseer on a jetbike.

Dreadknight was the first in a wave of miscosted monstrous creatures.

Game's a hot mess. Nids in particular are just horribly designed right now.

You missed off instant death attacks from force.

But Martel and Turbo are right, there are a lot of examples of this kind of OP bs that came in a wave period of power creep codeces. Unfortunetly (or fortunetly if you want to look at it that way) some codeces were left behind during the power creep.

2+ armor is far too good on a T6 multi-wound model compared to a T4 W1 model like terminators.

I still like my Carnifex more. Granted, the last codex variant was better with rerolling to hit and to wound, but throwing toxin sacs on them to bring them to par, you still have great capabilities out of each. Besides, mine has access to rage while yours does not. And one last thing: Since when did the Dreadknight have an entire branch of tactics named after them?

Carnifexes: we are the real MCs.

"Carnifexes: we are the real MCs."

True that.

What does this have to do with Tactics?

Anyway, these:

"Not to mention personal homers, force weapons, epic guns that don't replace it's powerfists for upgrades "

All cost extra points. Lots of extra points. A kitted out Dreadknight costs as much as 2 Carnifexes.

You also have to remember that units don't stand alone. The Dread knight is a bit better than the Carnifex at base, though he doesn't even have Force at base, but they are each supported by very different Codexes.

The Tyranids could use some love, but if Grey Knights are giving you trouble than you want to change tactics. A flying Hive Tyrant will more than pay for itself and 2 of them together will rake GK armies with volume of fire. Remember, GK lack good access to skyfire and thus suffer a weakness to it.

In addition, use your easy access to cheap CAD's to flood some low point, high model obsec on the table and snatched those objectives. He is probably in a Nemesis Strike Force so he won't have that.

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
Carnifexes: we are the real MCs.

Greater Daemons: what about us? ;_;

"The Dread knight is a bit better than the Carnifex at base,"

They are a LOT more than a bit better. That's the problem. Tactics can't let you ovecome that T6 2+ 4++ easily. Tactics don't make your AP 3 weapons work against the DReadknight. It's mathematically superior by a HUGE margin.

Dread is 5+ at base. 4+ if Sanctuary goes off, but it might fail or be denied so that is not guaranteed. It also prevents him from activating Force (though that doesn't matter at base).

Tactics means don't throw them in a monster mash at 1v1. Look at the whole Codex, like I outlined above. There are a lot of factors that go into making a unit good besides it's 1v1 Stat mash.

Audustum wrote:
Dread is 5+ at base. 4+ if Sanctuary goes off, but it might fail or be denied so that is not guaranteed. It also prevents him from activating Force (though that doesn't matter at base).

Tactics means don't throw them in a monster mash at 1v1. Look at the whole Codex, like I outlined above. There are a lot of factors that go into making a unit good besides it's 1v1 Stat mash.

Not really. In 40K, the stats matter the most. Your factors don't matter if I shoot your unit off the table. 2+ armor is leagues better than 3+ armor on an MC and there's no getting around that.

Martel732 wrote:
2+ armor is far too good on a T6 multi-wound model compared to a T4 W1 model like terminators.

It would be, if 2+ armor was any good these days. A good third of the armies in the game have very, very easy ways to deal with 2+.

Waaaghpower wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
2+ armor is far too good on a T6 multi-wound model compared to a T4 W1 model like terminators.

It would be, if 2+ armor was any good these days. A good third of the armies in the game have very, very easy ways to deal with 2+.

Do tell. I'm not seeing many armies that can do that easily without the word Eldar being used.

Waaaghpower wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
2+ armor is far too good on a T6 multi-wound model compared to a T4 W1 model like terminators.

It would be, if 2+ armor was any good these days. A good third of the armies in the game have very, very easy ways to deal with 2+.

It's not just 2+. It's 2+ T6 W4 4++. That's a killer combo. Terminators can be spammed down with bolters. Not Dreadknight. Sanguinary guard get don't use this term like this thanks. Reds8n by the ion accelarator. Not Dreadknight. Poison can reasonably bring down a carnifex. Not dreadknight. 2+ armor is EXPONENTIALLY better on an MC vs infantry. If you can't see that, I hope you're my next opponent.

Martel732 wrote:

Audustum wrote:
Dread is 5+ at base. 4+ if Sanctuary goes off, but it might fail or be denied so that is not guaranteed. It also prevents him from activating Force (though that doesn't matter at base).

Tactics means don't throw them in a monster mash at 1v1. Look at the whole Codex, like I outlined above. There are a lot of factors that go into making a unit good besides it's 1v1 Stat mash.

Not really. In 40K, the stats matter the most. Your factors don't matter if I shoot your unit off the table. 2+ armor is leagues better than 3+ armor on an MC and there's no getting around that.

Stats matter but you missed the point. The point is that you shouldn't 1v1 them. Just because they are both MC'S does NOT mean they are meant for the same task. A DK is meant to hunt and kill other MC's. A Carnifex is meant to kill tanks, buildings and some hordes. A Dakkafex is meant to kill MEQ's. If you 1v1 them, the DK is is his element. The Carnifex is not. Knowing not to 1v1 them is part of Tactics.

They are also part of different Codexes. Even on the table, they arn'rlt fighting 1v1 in a vaccuum.

Finally, regarding 2+, please remember that a naked DK has no guns and the Carnifex is hitting at AP2 in melee due to Smash. Also, Ion Accelerators can and do blow down Dreadknights. They have 3 shots base at S7 AP2 over 72" range. It's as dangerous to the DK as it is to most things.

I'm not talking 1 v 1. I'm talking vs the field. When I see carnifex, it's yawn time. When I see dreadknight, it's panic time.

I already outlined why the 2+ armor is so abusive on the Dreadknight. What part is not clear?

I'm just annoyed because I bought a second hand bundle of nids at about 33% GWS price which included 12 carnifexes. And even in their formations there are better ways, formation wise, to put your points. An endless swarm with devourer gaunts and toxin hormagaunts using a trygon tunnel and a sporefield of s8 ap3 15 point mucolids that respawn. Not to mention the ever present WHT with TWDB. Why take out a land raider with a carnifex when you can get 3 zonethropes that give you spirit leach that gives you more warp charge and can wreck a land raider from a distance. And now you can't even have a venomthrope next to it with infantry intervening models giving it a 3+ cover because MC no longer get intervening model cover unless 25%. Dropping one down in a tyranocyte with 2 x TLDB is fun to wreck some rear armour turn two and charge the passengers on the inside with gaunts, distracts from your respawning hordes til it is ap'd to death. If you can protect them by occupying anti MC things your opponent has brought they can be very useful but give them to me for 90 points or switch up the nemesis to 170 points for christ sake.

Would love to know more of these OP comparisons that you speak of, I personally know nothing about chaos except people whinging their MCs get shot down before reaching combat.

What's the point of this thread?

Martel732 wrote:
"The Dread knight is a bit better than the Carnifex at base,"

They are a LOT more than a bit better. That's the problem. Tactics can't let you ovecome that T6 2+ 4++ easily. Tactics don't make your AP 3 weapons work against the DReadknight. It's mathematically superior by a HUGE margin.

Come on, Though I won't deny that DK is at the upper-mid-tier of Monstrous Creatures. But If you are making one to one comparison to show DK OPness, why not making the comparison between typical Flyrant and tooled up DK? The Flyrant cost 240pts, DK is 225pts. Put both of them against a marine Dev Squad with Gravcannons / Lascannons sitting at 24inch range in cover, or more hilariously, put them against a large squad of TWC led by a Wolf Lord with Powerfist and Wolf Claw. You will see who gets defeated more easily.

Carnifex is love, carnifex is life. Screw the rules and screw the power level. There is no single more iconic monster in the whole game. It's the carnifex, man. The half-trick pony of awesomesauce. Used to physically be one of the largest models you could buy, now gets confused with tyranid warriors that just had too much food. Everybody outgrew the fex by 5-6". Fex feel ok, fex no care, fex too busy casually having str 9 base anyways. /flex .

Oh and give the fex two guns if you wanna make comparisons. Watch the value oozing out of our fella's mouth.

Carnifex is love, Carnifex is life. I have 8. Not enuff!

Essentially carnifexes are too expensive relative to what other armies can get for the same points so is there any point in running them?

Essentially Flyrants are too cheap relative to what other armies can get for the same points so is there any point running anything but them?

You're looking at comparing armies defined by singular units. It's ironic to do so as they are literally the only units keeping the respective armies relevant. This thread is just whining about known game imbalance at this point.

The thing with the carnifex is it has been around for a long time.
One of the oldest monstrous creatures in the game.

It has only changed superficially since 3rd edition. Sure, upgrades have come and gone. It lost a ton of them going into 5th edition. It has gained a point in a stat here, lost a point there. But it still has the same basic chassis from 3rd edition.
3rd edition armies could deal with it. Modern armies most certainly can deal with it.
Hell, back then you could give it a 2+ save for 10 points, and it was still cheaper than a basic carnifex is in the current codex (and that's after they got 40 points cheaper from 5th to 6th. 5th edition was baaad)

The more recent tyranid MCs seem to have used the carnifex as a template.
I feel this partially explains why TMCs tend to be so bad. They're all balanced around a critter from 3rd edition, while all the MCs popping up in other armies have gone off and done their own thing.

pm713 wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
2+ armor is far too good on a T6 multi-wound model compared to a T4 W1 model like terminators.

It would be, if 2+ armor was any good these days. A good third of the armies in the game have very, very easy ways to deal with 2+.

Do tell. I'm not seeing many armies that can do that easily without the word Eldar being used.

Space Marines have Grav-weaponry, which can be easily spammed on bikes, command squads, Skyhammers, or Centurions. Not only do these have mass (And I do mean mass, thanks to Salve) AP2, but it also wounds on a 2+.
CSM and Chaos both have fairly common access to really high initiative AP2 in melee, usually with something giving great to-wound rolls as well. (About the only thing that Chaos Daemons do really well, actually, is bring high initiative AP2 stuff to the board.)
Tau have lots of AP2 shooting as well.

Imperial Guard struggles with 2+ as far as I'm aware, Orks struggle pretty heavily with it since pretty much their only access is slow artillery, a couple innacurate Mek choices, or I1 in close combat, I'm unfamiliar with Necrons, and since Space Wolves don't get Grav weaponry they instead have to fight in CC to handle 2+ armor. (Then again, they have Wulfen and Thunderwolves, so not a big deal.)

GK do a good job of overloading available grav resources.

Even if the DK does fall to grav, it's unfair that the 2+ takes away one of the alleged weaknesses of MCs. You can't begin to plink it with small arms.

Yes you can, last time I played Grey Knights a couple of Venoms took away two of it's wounds before my Incubi charged turn 4 and killed it.

Meh, that has taken too long already. A GK Knight is better than a Carnifex. So what. Tyranids can have a troop choice for 15 pts that can assault flying targets and explode into a str 8 ap3 large blast. GK can't have that. Again, so what. Each army has his own unit profiles that may seem bad when you look at external balance but might as well preserve the army's internal balance. Many things can be said for the Tyranids. Raveners are the same point as Necron Wraiths yet they are about a million times worse. Dakka flyrants are about 60-80 pts undercosted for the amount of utility and value they provide. Trygons are useless, tyranids still have a blanket rule nerf for no reason in the year 2016, their new releases were mediocre at best, they have the most formations compared to any other army yet only one of them is actually viable etc etc etc. It's a 2011 army book in late 2016. It is logical that it will be bad.

 Imateria wrote:
Yes you can, last time I played Grey Knights a couple of Venoms took away two of it's wounds before my Incubi charged turn 4 and killed it.

You can't rely on it, which makes it useless. You can get lucky, but in general, small arms do not work vs 2+ armor MCs.